What is the point that we should judge someone as being a false teacher?

[Scoot]

This question is inspired by @Joseph77, when he asked me in Genuine Questions for Cessationist's

Are you so unsure of the truth, or else why would you want to learn the false teachings and the reasons for false teachings ?

I will answer your question in the next post - but what I am keen to hear from you (and others) is the topic of this thread:

I think it's a good question that needs further consideration.

What is the point that we judge someone as being a false teacher? Is it when they preach a different gospel message, or deny the deity of Christ?

Or is it more - such as if they differ from our perception on matters such as OSAS / Calvanism / Sign Gifts being ready today?

Where do we draw the line at disregarding someone else as being a false teacher?

- Scoot

 

[Joseph77]

Throughout the Scripture, including the NT, there are simple, true, and perfect instructions for what to do about a false teaching, a false teacher, and ANYONE (teacher or not) (to be verified)
ANYONE who brings a false gospel, as defined clearly and simply in Scripture.
Since there are many false teachers, and a slowness on the part of 'sheep' to do something about it,
what then ? Or is it not on the part of the sheep ? Is it on the part of more false teachers ? I don't know.

 

[Scoot]

Are you so unsure of the truth, or else why would you want to learn the false teachings and the reasons for false teachings ?

To answer your question directly - I am convinced that the bible is the word of God. I am convinced that it speaks truth. I am not convinced that I have a full understanding on it and that my convictions of scripture are correctly understood, so I am willing to hear others out that disagree with me on secondary issues.

I am striving to be Quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to get angry (Jam 1:19).

I find that by listening - it helps me to see where I am wrong or can grow - or, it further cements my understanding of scripture if their response is weak and mine is strong.

I also find that by hearing people out - more often than not I find that my perception of what they believed was first wrong.

Take the recent example of ceassation. I assumed thought they didn't believe in healing at all. Yet by being willing to listen - I find they do - they just believe that the "sign gift" where someone has a ministry of miraculous healing where they can lay hands on people and they will all be healed ceased with the apostles. I was wrong, and I have learned something by listening.

I once judged Once Saved Always Saved as believing that once you say a prayer of repentance you were saved and you could go on then sinning and still be saved, because Once Saved Always Saved. When I was willing to hear them out and strive to understand why they believe what they believe nothing could be further from what they believe. I was wrong, and I have learned something by listening. I was wrong, and I have learned something by listening.

This doesn't mean that I end up agreeing with OSAS or cessationists. But it does mean that I have a greater understanding of what they believe - and i have also been able to see scripture in a different light in some matters to what I have before.

I could go on with areas in my life where I misunderstood where someone was coming from, and if I was not willing to hear them out - I would still be wallowing in my ignorance.

I have learned that many genuine people are on opposite ends of many debates. One of my favourite teachers (Chuch and Nancy Missler) opposed with each other on OSAS. Martin Luther did an incredible work with the reformation, and I respect and have Lutherans as close friends today, but I disagree with them on infant baptism. Yet I don't discount Martin as being a false teacher, or my friends pastors as being the same.

I am not ready to call anyone who differs on my views with Calvanism vs Arminianism / OSAS vs not / Ceassationists vs Continuists as being false teachers. Rather I believe it is healthy for people to respectfully discuss their differences and hear each other out. Iron sharpens Iron. (Prov 27:17).

However I also believe it is unhealthy and I want to avoid those who want to engage in arguments with others who have a different view. (2 Timothy 2:14)

How do I reconcile the two? For me - I believe the key here is the heart of the people and the discussion. Is it a discussion willing to hear each other out in patience and love - or is it a closed minded discussion and only willing to quarrel, argue and put down?

If I take this to the extreme - I see the latter view going the way of our modern society. No fair debates, stacked panels, promoting censorship, drowning anyone with a different view out with shouting and arguments. No more is this prevalent than what I see with our universities, or organizations such as BLM. How will these people ever learn of their deception if they are not willing to hear out another?

Likewise, how will I be willing to see my mistakes too if I am unwilling to hear others out if I am wrong. I believe as I listen, if someone speaks truth - the Holy Spirit can convict me when I'm wrong and can give me revelation, the same as reading scripture.

Scripture is my foundation. I love it - and for me - it is the only thing that is solid. My understanding of it however has a lot of improvement left and I value the input of others.

I am seeking to find greater understanding of the bible, and I find it's just as healthy to be challenged on what I believe as it is to have people support what I believe. This is why I love the way the early church started, and I love home group settings. It's not one person preaching and all others just listening - it is a place where we can discuss, and ask questions and grow together.

When two or more people are willing to sit down and respectfully discuss issues - we can learn from each other. The alternative is to not listen to any opposing views to our own, which I believe is arrogant and dangerous because it leaves no room for correction, or to otherwise engage in arguments instead.

I am not ready to throw cessationists out as false teachers. From what I can tell, they are not preaching a false gospel message (even if they may be incorrect with their understanding on gifts) - unless you believe that the gospel isn't complete unless one believes that the sign miracles are in effect today and the sign gifts are part of the gospel message?

From my discussions so far I believe that they are very passionate about Christ, and scripture and I value their input if they're willing to have discussions with me.

I hope this helps to explain why I am willing to have conversations with others on these topics and hear them out.

 

[Joseph77]

1 Corinthians 2:11 - Bible Gateway

"But God has, through the Spirit, let us share his secret. For nothing is hidden from the Spirit, not even the deep wisdom of God. For who could really understand a man’s inmost thoughts except the spirit of the man himself? How much less could anyone understand the thoughts of God except the very Spirit of God? And the marvellous thing is this, that we now receive not the spirit of the world but the Spirit of God himself, so that we can actually understand something of God’s generosity towards us."

 

[Joseph77]

Take the recent example of ceassation. I assumed thought they didn't believe in healing at all. Yet by being willing to listen - I find they do - they just believe that the "sign gift" where someone has a ministry of miraculous healing where they can lay hands on people and they will all be healed ceased with the apostles. I was wrong, and I have learned something by listening.

You might be on to something, sometimes.

Others , when I asked them if their church permits <any> healing, even natural healing,
their responses have ranged from simple silence, non-acceptance,
to threatening to punch me viciously and throw me out.... (once with twelve doctors present, supposedly all liked deacons or elders in the specific baptist church - they all deny healing there) ....

 

[Joseph77]

I am not ready to throw cessationists out as false teachers. From what I can tell, they are not preaching a false gospel message (even if they may be incorrect with their understanding on gifts) - unless you believe that the gospel isn't complete unless one believes that the sign miracles are in effect today and the sign gifts are part of the gospel message?

It is necessary , of course, to see what else they believe, teach, practice, or so on - to know if possible.

Just believing the signs / healing/ faith/ prophesy / stopped, can be changed as soon as they truthfully see it occur, if they ever do.
They might just be unaware that Jesus has not changed.

Or they might be opposed to Jesus.

Thus , subject to testing , maybe each time. Maybe each person, (don't assume all in a group are the same condition - each and every one is given the hope and prayer and benefit of being thought on the right path, until they with their own words show otherwise ) ....

 

[justbyfaith]

The gospel that is set forth by Paul in Galatians is an ebenezer stone in this.

If someone contradicts this gospel, they are a false teacher.

I believe that the Deity of Christ is also important; if someone denies this they are teaching falsely and should not be trusted.

Other than that, we ought to go by what Jesus said here:

Mat 7:15, Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16, Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17, Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18, A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19, Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20, Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

A false teacher, when challenged, will bear thorns and thistles to the people who challenge them. A true teacher will endure such attacks.

1Co 4:11, Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
1Co 4:12, And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
1Co 4:13, Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.

I recognize that I myself have not been perfect concerning this criteria. In the case of my recent dispute with @BreadOfLife, I was indeed guilty of speaking misinformation about the Catholic Church and he came down on me hard. I felt that he was being overly judgmental and so I responded by "giving him a taste of his own medicine" (which fell on deaf ears); a response that is justified by Proverbs 26:4-5.

 

[Enoch111]

What is the point that we judge someone as being a false teacher? Is it when they preach a different gospel message, or deny the deity of Christ?

This is a good place to start. But false teachers can pervert other teachings of Christ and the apostles also. See 2 Peter 2.

 

[Scoot]

This is a good place to start. But false teachers can pervert other teachings of Christ and the apostles also. See 2 Peter 2.

Thanks Enoch111. This to me gets to the crux of the issue.

Some claim that cessationists are false teaches. Others that arminianism is - that calvanism is correct. Is there a point between genuine born again Christians being mistaken, vs blatant false teachers that will lead astray - and how does one discern where the line is if not at the sole gospel message?

With one side of the line, we're to love our brothers in Christ even though they're mistaken and we can discuss scripture for correction, and rebuking, etc (2 Tim 3:16). With the other side, we're not to even invite them into our homes. (2 John 9-11).

I observe some people treat others as though they're heretics because they disagree on secondary issues.

With 2 Peter 2 - False prophets can be seen by prophecying and then it not coming true. False teachers can be seen who introduce destructive heresies and deny the Master. Both of these to me seem blatant, a long way from having a difference on understanding of certain scriptures.

 

[Joseph77]

QUOTE=" @Scoot , post: 798315, member: 8745"]Thanks Enoch111. This to me gets to the crux of the issue.

Some claim that cessationists are false teaches. Others that arminianism is - that calvanism is correct. Is there a point between genuine born again Christians being mistaken, vs blatant false teachers that will lead astray - and how does one discern where the line is if not at the sole gospel message?

With one side of the line, we're to love our brothers in Christ even though they're mistaken and we can discuss scripture for correction, and rebuking, etc (2 Tim 3:16). With the other side, we're not to even invite them into our homes. (2 John 9-11).

I observe some people treat others as though they're heretics because they disagree on secondary issues.

With 2 Peter 2 - False prophets can be seen by prophecying and then it not coming true. False teachers can be seen who introduce destructive heresies and deny the Master. Both of these to me seem blatant, a long way from having a difference on understanding of certain scriptures.[/QUOTE
=======================================================
Someone promoting total false teachings and false gospel, with hundreds of nonsensical posts, was identified as such in the first day or two, after maybe twenty posts, but instead of being limited, was encouraged to go on and on and on and on and on... for weeks...
until banned.
Others doing the same thing - promoting false gospels OR false teachings, continue going on and on and on and on and on and on...
So what ?
(in terms of the internet - so what ? What do you think can be done about that ? )

Finally, one more observation - sometimes a false teacher who does not even believe in Jesus will just post in other areas, other threads, other topics, often quoting Scripture or other "wise" saying (as if), or some kind of , what, a proverb of knowledge, secular or religious ? So they try to post friendly stuff, not showing what's hiding underneath the exterior.. getting 'followers' or 'likes' day after day...

So what ? on the internet ? what to do ? other than note them, and do all that is possible to avoid getting entangled ....

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Here’s the Dividing Line......One Guy says “ Jesus Saves. Period.” Another Guy says, “ Jesus Saves— BUT!”
Adding ANYthing to the Gospel Of Grace Plus Nothing That Jesus revealed to Paul with 1Cor15:14 and you have crossed the Line into Legalism and maybe even Unbelief.....If one Believes In a Perverted Gospel that involves ANY Human effort or merit , you will “ Fall From Grace”, and the Cross will be of NO BENEFIT to you...... “ TEACH” a Perverted Gospel and you are “ Accursed”—- Damned By God Forever.....Serious Stuff. Pray that God open your eyes and show you how to REST in His Gospel Of Grace.....

 

[Joseph77]

That's not at all the dividing line.
The false gospel presented in your posts on other forums for years , and now here, is always false gospel , and benefits no one. (i.e. the universal gospel, etc )

 

[mjrhealth]

This is a good place to start. But false teachers can pervert other teachings of Christ and the apostles also. See 2 Peter 2.

The problem is, most that those who do, dont usually realize that they are actually doing it. That is the reason why it is "deceiving".

 

[Joseph77]

Perfect example ! How many times has mjrh been notified, alerted, gently or otherwise warned about his own posts of false teachings he carries and follows and believes,
yet does not realize he is doing it.... that is the reason he is deceived? or what it is called being deceived? self-deceived ?

i.e. God has given him up to believe his own delusions, his beliefs which are contrary to God's Word, constantly denying Jesus.

 

[Rita]

Thanks Enoch111. This to me gets to the crux of the issue.

Some claim that cessationists are false teaches. Others that arminianism is - that calvanism is correct. Is there a point between genuine born again Christians being mistaken, vs blatant false teachers that will lead astray - and how does one discern where the line is if not at the sole gospel message?

With one side of the line, we're to love our brothers in Christ even though they're mistaken and we can discuss scripture for correction, and rebuking, etc (2 Tim 3:16). With the other side, we're not to even invite them into our homes. (2 John 9-11).

I observe some people treat others as though they're heretics because they disagree on secondary issues.

With 2 Peter 2 - False prophets can be seen by prophecying and then it not coming true. False teachers can be seen who introduce destructive heresies and deny the Master. Both of these to me seem blatant, a long way from having a difference on understanding of certain scriptures.

Great post Scoot x

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Here’s the Dividing Line......One Guy says “ Jesus Saves. Period.” Another Guy says, “ Jesus Saves— BUT!”
Adding ANYthing to the Gospel Of Grace Plus Nothing That Jesus revealed to Paul with 1Cor15:14 and you have crossed the Line into Legalism and maybe even Unbelief.....If one Believes In a Perverted Gospel that involves ANY Human effort or merit , you will “ Fall From Grace”, and the Cross will be of NO BENEFIT to you...... “ TEACH” a Perverted Gospel and you are “ Accursed”—- Damned By God Forever.....Serious Stuff. Pray that God open your eyes and show you how to REST in His Gospel Of Grace.....

That's not at all the dividing line.
The false gospel presented in your posts on other forums for years , and now here, is always false gospel , and benefits no one. (i.e. the universal gospel, etc )

It’s always nice to have fans...I did not think anybody paid that much attention to me.....Lol...... I do not recognize your name.....and your post was 90% unclear to me....are you saying that exposing a False Gospel is not important? People get damned for teaching false gospels such as “ Sure, Jesus Saves......but ya gotta repent of all of your sins before you die!” Please elaborate...

 

[Jane_Doe22]

This question is inspired by @Joseph77, when he asked me in Genuine Questions for Cessationist's



I will answer your question in the next post - but what I am keen to hear from you (and others) is the topic of this thread:

I think it's a good question that needs further consideration.

What is the point that we judge someone as being a false teacher? Is it when they preach a different gospel message, or deny the deity of Christ?

Or is it more - such as if they differ from our perception on matters such as OSAS / Calvanism / Sign Gifts being ready today?

Where do we draw the line at disregarding someone else as being a false teacher?

- Scoot

I see this as being two different questions—

What is the point of asking somebody to explain their beliefs to you and listening to their answers? That’s called a devotion to truth. It doesn’t matter whether you believe such a person is a true teacher or not - be factual about whatever it is they believe.

2) actually addressing the question of false teachers: you should NEVER believe something just because somebody told you it. Examine every idea in study and prayer.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

To answer your question directly - I am convinced that the bible is the word of God. I am convinced that it speaks truth. I am not convinced that I have a full understanding on it and that my convictions of scripture are correctly understood, so I am willing to hear others out that disagree with me on secondary issues.

I am striving to be Quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to get angry (Jam 1:19).

I find that by listening - it helps me to see where I am wrong or can grow - or, it further cements my understanding of scripture if their response is weak and mine is strong.

I also find that by hearing people out - more often than not I find that my perception of what they believed was first wrong.

Take the recent example of ceassation. I assumed thought they didn't believe in healing at all. Yet by being willing to listen - I find they do - they just believe that the "sign gift" where someone has a ministry of miraculous healing where they can lay hands on people and they will all be healed ceased with the apostles. I was wrong, and I have learned something by listening.

I once judged Once Saved Always Saved as believing that once you say a prayer of repentance you were saved and you could go on then sinning and still be saved, because Once Saved Always Saved. When I was willing to hear them out and strive to understand why they believe what they believe nothing could be further from what they believe. I was wrong, and I have learned something by listening. I was wrong, and I have learned something by listening.

This doesn't mean that I end up agreeing with OSAS or cessationists. But it does mean that I have a greater understanding of what they believe - and i have also been able to see scripture in a different light in some matters to what I have before.

I could go on with areas in my life where I misunderstood where someone was coming from, and if I was not willing to hear them out - I would still be wallowing in my ignorance.

I have learned that many genuine people are on opposite ends of many debates. One of my favourite teachers (Chuch and Nancy Missler) opposed with each other on OSAS. Martin Luther did an incredible work with the reformation, and I respect and have Lutherans as close friends today, but I disagree with them on infant baptism. Yet I don't discount Martin as being a false teacher, or my friends pastors as being the same.

I am not ready to call anyone who differs on my views with Calvanism vs Arminianism / OSAS vs not / Ceassationists vs Continuists as being false teachers. Rather I believe it is healthy for people to respectfully discuss their differences and hear each other out. Iron sharpens Iron. (Prov 27:17).

However I also believe it is unhealthy and I want to avoid those who want to engage in arguments with others who have a different view. (2 Timothy 2:14)

How do I reconcile the two? For me - I believe the key here is the heart of the people and the discussion. Is it a discussion willing to hear each other out in patience and love - or is it a closed minded discussion and only willing to quarrel, argue and put down?

If I take this to the extreme - I see the latter view going the way of our modern society. No fair debates, stacked panels, promoting censorship, drowning anyone with a different view out with shouting and arguments. No more is this prevalent than what I see with our universities, or organizations such as BLM. How will these people ever learn of their deception if they are not willing to hear out another?

Likewise, how will I be willing to see my mistakes too if I am unwilling to hear others out if I am wrong. I believe as I listen, if someone speaks truth - the Holy Spirit can convict me when I'm wrong and can give me revelation, the same as reading scripture.

Scripture is my foundation. I love it - and for me - it is the only thing that is solid. My understanding of it however has a lot of improvement left and I value the input of others.

I am seeking to find greater understanding of the bible, and I find it's just as healthy to be challenged on what I believe as it is to have people support what I believe. This is why I love the way the early church started, and I love home group settings. It's not one person preaching and all others just listening - it is a place where we can discuss, and ask questions and grow together.

When two or more people are willing to sit down and respectfully discuss issues - we can learn from each other. The alternative is to not listen to any opposing views to our own, which I believe is arrogant and dangerous because it leaves no room for correction, or to otherwise engage in arguments instead.

I am not ready to throw cessationists out as false teachers. From what I can tell, they are not preaching a false gospel message (even if they may be incorrect with their understanding on gifts) - unless you believe that the gospel isn't complete unless one believes that the sign miracles are in effect today and the sign gifts are part of the gospel message?

From my discussions so far I believe that they are very passionate about Christ, and scripture and I value their input if they're willing to have discussions with me.

I hope this helps to explain why I am willing to have conversations with others on these topics and hear them out.

This attitude/approach is to be applauded.

 

[atpollard]

For me, a false teacher teaches falsely. If someone says “The Bible says ...” and then presents a verse that no reasonable person could read the verse within its paragraph and come to the conclusion that scripture is saying what that person claims it is saying ... then they are a FALSE TEACHER and there is nothing to be gained from listening to empty words devoid of truth. If they interpret a verse in a way that is different from how you interpret that verse, but is not an unreasonable interpretation, then that is a teacher with a different opinion, but not a false teacher.

To read “the world” in a verse and believe it means “all nations, Jews and Gentiles” or to believe that “the world” means “every single person” are both reasonable beliefs. To read John 1:1 and conclude that Jesus was really just an angel and not God is not a reasonable belief from the text.

 

[Jay Ross]

For me, a false teacher teaches falsely. If someone says “The Bible says ...” and then presents a verse that no reasonable person could read the verse within its paragraph and come to the conclusion that scripture is saying what that person claims it is saying ... then they are a FALSE TEACHER and there is nothing to be gained from listening to empty words devoid of truth. If they interpret a verse in a way that is different from how you interpret that verse, but is not an unreasonable interpretation, then that is a teacher with a different opinion, but not a false teacher.

To read “the world” in a verse and believe it means “all nations, Jews and Gentiles” or to believe that “the world” means “every single person” are both reasonable beliefs. To read John 1:1 and conclude that Jesus was really just an angel and not God is not a reasonable belief from the text.

The problem that I have is that people revere their English translations as if they are infallible without actually checking out the source texts from which the translations have been generated to see if the message content in both the original and the translations mess together accurately.

I am often prompted by the spirit to pause what I am reading in the English translation and to go to my interlinear study tools and verify the message content of the source texts. I often find that the message context of the translations has been biased by by the translators and often provide a very different message/context from the source texts.

This is particularly true for the OT section of our translations.

Let me give you an example, A Hebrew Root Word which has the meaning of soil, i.e. H:0127, can often be found to have the meaning of "earth" or "land" where the context becomes lost in the many meanings that our English words can have. For example the word "take" in many dictionaries is acknowledged to have around 75 very different meanings. For example what is the meaning of the word "take" in this small example: - "take a seat."

Does it mean to sit down, steal the seat, pick up the seat, swallow the seat, eat the seat, sit on the seat, etc..

This is the problem we have with the multitude of people who become commentators based on their understanding of the English translations.

The English translations are okay to read and understanding if the right context for the English words used to translate the source texts into clearly and convey the message content of the source text language. It often does not, and as such a much confusion has been introduced into our commentaries of the scriptures by well intentioned people knew no better.

Has a person been lead astray because of their lack of understanding or has that person deliberately provided a false understanding of the scriptures. Accusing someone of being a false teacher, we must understand who the person is. It is often very difficult to judge a person from what he writes as we are missing too many hidden clues in their conversation. The sad part is that many people accuse them of being a false teacher without providing them with the evidence to clearly show them the error that they have created. Sadly, they can also be stubborn and believe that they are still right and so ignore any words of wisdom that they may be given from a more "gifted" biblical "scholar."

Even a more "gifted" biblical "scholar" can be just as misleading as one attempting to make sense of the Bible teaching.