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Featured What is Works Theology?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by H. Richard, Jul 8, 2019.

  1. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    Does this theology really exist or am I making it up?

    IMHO yes it really does exist. If you ask most people in the Christian religion why they think they are going to heaven the first things out of their mouth will be about what they do, or have done. --- In other words it will be about themselves and their works. -- Very few will “”first”” say it is because Jesus’ work on the cross paid for their sins. If they mention the cross it will have to be coerced. -- Why do they do that? IMHO it is because they feel their works are what really matters. Perhaps that is because that is what they have been taught in a “works theology.”

    The most discussed idea on forums is works. To believe works follow faith is find, but to constantly harp on it is to judge other Christians and to make “”works the center of Christianity.”” This is a form of boasting and trying to elevate some people as being closer to God than others. It makes Christianity a class system. IMHO this is what causes the world to turn against Christianity. The world see Christianity as a works based religion just like all the other works based religions and not as a religion in which God has reconciled sinners to God.

    Since true faith WILL produce good works why are so many constantly harping that a person must have good works? If they are a Christian won’t they have good works? Do they need others to kick them into doing good works? A true child of God does not do good works to be seen by men. They do not do them to prove they have faith. God knows whether they have faith or not. No one needs to prove their faith to any man.

    Seems to me that if they are not Christians all the harping about doing good works will not make them a Christian. It also seems to me that all the harping about good works only frustrates a child of God who is living in a body with a sinful nature that will sin.

    Where am I wrong?
    ****

    Besides, since a true child of God is NOT doing works to be seen by men how can you tell if they are doing good works. Oh, I get it, they must do their good works so that men can see them and say how wonderful they are. --- Amazing!

    Matt 6:1-4 Do Good to Please God

    1 "Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven.
    2 Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.
    3 But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
    4 that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly. NKJV

    I don't think the above tell us to do good works so that men will see them.

    Jesus told the world about God. I believe we are to tell the world about Jesus. We are to teach that God was in Jesus reconciling mankind to God. That is how we glorify God and His Son. I believe this to be our primary mission.

    I don't see the children of God as being lazy. I see all of mankind living in bodies with a sinful nature needing Jesus' work on the cross. When I start thinking of myself as being better than others then I need to look in a mirror. When I think I am so good it is then that I should compare myself to Jesus and realize how sinful I am.

    I think people ought to take another look at the event in the garden. Didn't Satan tell eve that she could be "LIKE GOD?"

    I don't approve of Christians going around pretending to be like Jesus when there is no way under the sun that they can be like Jesus. If you want the world to look at you and see Jesus then what you are saying to the world is that Jesus is like you and that is just plain wrong. Jesus is God and we are not like Him in the flesh.

    continued
     
  2. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    ***It was said: "Thus, you have to address both the "lazy" Christian because it seems his faith is not sincere (otherwise there would be fruit). But you also have to address the folks who think their works save them. I think that explains why people harp on works so much. The proper teaching is the one that emphasizes that fruit is born out of faith, not vice versa." ***

    My reply: The proper teaching is about the cross, that placing faith, trust, confidence and hope in the FINISHED work of God (Jesus) on the cross is what God commands us to do in this age of His grace.

    Harping on others is just a way of boasting and judging others. It sets the “harper” up as being less sinful than the others, who, in their judgment, isn't doing enough. As if their judgment is the same as God's. It is one servant boasting against another and trying to boss them.

    Who are those that would judge God’s servants? Who gave them that right?

    Rom 14:1-13
    4 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.
    2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.
    3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.
    4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

    5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.
    6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.
    7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself.
    8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
    9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
    10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
    11 For it is written:

    "As I live, says the Lord,
    Every knee shall bow to Me,
    And every tongue shall confess to God."

    12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.
    13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way.
    NKJV

    But it seems to me that many want to be able to judge others and yet they sit back and say "I love others." Amazing!!!

    When some Christians judge other Christians as being lazy it sound very much like the son that stayed with his father when the other son went away. The son that stayed home was jealous and resented the son that returned. --- That is my observation.

    We either have the uniqueness of GRACE ALONE for salvation, or we are like every other works based religion where one hopes to get to heaven by their good works, but doesn't really know. Some brothers and sisters in Christ say, "What makes Christianity different is that we do not get to heaven by works, it is by God's grace, in Christ. No works at all." Then, others will ask what sins one could commit to lose salvation, and many will name sins... this is a grievous contradiction, and it frustrates the Gospel of grace... God forbid.

    Many Christians are tainted by a works based Gospel... it is our goal to meditate on His grace, and teach it at all times.

    How my heart aches for people to understand His work on the cross, and accept it for the mystery that it is... by grace alone we are saved, and not by works... lest any man boast. Stop frustrating the Gospel of grace, brothers and sisters... it is not good to strive against God
     
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  3. Deborah_

    Deborah_ Well-Known Member

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    What "Christian" circles do you move in? In my (mainly evangelical) experience, it's the other way round.
     
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  4. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

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    Hebrews 2:9 Christ died for every man but every man will not be saved because every man will not obey Christ, Hebrews 5:9.

    Obedience is a necessary condition God has placed upon His free gift of salvation.

    There is a difference between working to earn some thing and meeting the condition place upon a free gift. Luke 13:24 Jesus said to "strive" to enter the narrow gate, strive meaning to contend, struggle, "to endeavour with strenuous zeal" - Strong's But the striving earns nothing but is a necessary condition one must first meet before entering the strait, narrow gate.

    Those who obey love God and God loves those that obey Him John 14:15; John 14:21 John 15:10.

    "Grace alone" will not save those that continue in disobedience to God's will, Romans 6.
     
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  5. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    Heb 2:7-9
    7 You (God) have made him (Jesus) a little lower than the angels; You have crowned him with glory and honor, And set him (Jesus) over the works of Your hands.
    8 You have put all things in subjection under his (Jesus') feet." For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him.
    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
    NKJV

    Heb 5:7-8
    7 While Jesus was here on earth, he offered prayers and pleadings, with a loud cry and tears, to the one who could rescue him from death. And God heard his prayers because of his deep reverence for God.
    8 Even though Jesus was God's Son, he (Jesus) learned obedience from the things he suffered.

    Rom 6:1-12
    Sin's Power Is Broken 1 Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more of his wonderful grace?
    2 Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it?
    3 Or have you forgotten that when we were joined with Christ Jesus in baptism, we joined him in his death?
    4 For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives.

    How can those that have died to sin think they are still condemned by those sins of the flesh --- the flesh is accounted as dead.

    5 Since we have been united with him in his death, we will also be raised to life as he was.
    6 We know that our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin.

    If a person feels they are condemned by their sins then they have not been set free of them and are a slave to them.

    7 For when we died with Christ we were set free from the power of sin. -- This does not say we no longer sin in the flesh. We are no longer condemned by them.

    8 And since we died with Christ, we know we will also live with him.
    9 We are sure of this because Christ was raised from the dead, and he will never die again. Death no longer has any power over him.
    10 When he died, he died once to break the power of sin. But now that he lives, he lives for the glory of God.
    11 So you also should consider yourselves to be dead to the power of sin and alive to God through Christ Jesus.
    12 Do not let sin control the way you live; do not give in to sinful desires.


    The above does not say a child of God will lose their salvation because of their sins of the flesh.
     
  6. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    You are very confused in your ideas.

    Eph.2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

    We were once dead in sins...in times past...who are now in Christ.


    But you would twist this to mean...that we are presently ALIVE in trespasses and sins wherein in times present and future we walk in accordance to this world.

    But rather we see that your doctrine comes from they who work in the children of disobedience....NOW.

    Jesus died for the sins that are past before entering into His grace.. He empowers us to walk in newness of life...not the oldness of sins.

    Romans 3:25
    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    Grace is not an allowance for sin...but the power that overcomes sin...as Jesus also overcame sin.

     
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  7. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Not exactly, but close. And here are the words of Christ for you to chew on:

    Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. (Mt 5:16)

    Not how wonderful you are but how God is glorified.
     
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  8. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    @H. Richard
    You speak of people boasting about a certain theology, yet what of all those who say nothing but simply strive to follow Jesus? Since you hear nothing from them why would you or should you presume that their faith is equal to yours in every point?


    You regularly deny the power of God to work the impossible in the sinful flesh of a man and you then ask the question, "Where am I wrong?"

    Did not Jesus come to make it possible for each of us to do what Adam and Eve did not do in Eden? By the power of God in us we can now do it but we have it to do. Is that not a reason why we remain here after we have met the Master?
     
  9. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    what is works theology?.....it's like a works burger...the original looses its appeal.
     
  10. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    Seems to me you are boasting when you say YOU have the power to not sin in the Flesh. When a person, like you, says they have the power to not sin and then they sin it makes them a liar.

    God did the impossible when He can call a sinful person a saint when they place their faith (trust) in Jesus' shed blood on the cross. Salvation is totally the work of God and He finished it on the cross.

    1 Cor 1:18-23
    18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
    19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."
    20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
    21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
    22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom;
    23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,
    NKJV

    Do you preach Christ crucified or do you preach you can become perfect in the flesh. IMHO It is all about you and your becoming sinless in the flesh isn't it?

    1 Cor 1:26-31
    26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
    27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
    28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
    29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
    30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God — and righteousness and sanctification and redemption —
    31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."
    NKJV

    God can now call a sinful person, sinless, because He, Himself, paid for all their sins on the cross. He can call the ungodly a saint for the same reason. But the religious refuse to see it because it does not give them any glory.
     
  11. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Don't let your heart ache HR.
    Because FAITH ONLY is also a modern day concept which NEVER EXISTED in the church till now.

    You need both, OK?
    I didn't even read your whole O.P.
    You should write a book for goodness sake.

    Let me ask you a very simple question:

    When you read the N.T., do you come across any verses that speak about doing good deeds?

    Do you think these verses are for those that are saved and know God...
    or do you think they're for the unsaved that do not now God?
     
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  12. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    That is just your opinion. Others have their own opinion and you will say theirs is confused also. I, personally, have confidence that God knows His children.
     
  13. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    Of course I do. But when I read them they are the GOOD works that the children of God do when led by the Holy Spirit.

    If you want people to do good works that are led by the Holy Spirit then those good works are between them and God. They are not works that a person can glory in. Many say they do good works but if that good work is not led by the Holy Spirit then it only glorifies the person, not God.

    IMHO, Being the person that gives a message of God's grace to another person is the very best good work that a child of God can do. The Holy Spirit can work with that effort. But the message of self-righteous people is of no use to the Holy Spirit.
     
  14. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Answer me this:

    1. How do we know if the good deeds we do are of us or of God?
    Isn't every good work of God?
    Didn't Jesus say we will be known by our fruit?
    And what's this story I keep hearing about giving us glory?
    To God goes all the glory since it's by the Holy Spirit that we can do ANYTHING.

    2. You like to give a new Christian the message of God's grace.
    Great. But is this what Jesus said?
    It's not.

    This is what Jesus said:
    Mathew 28:19-20

    1. What EXACTLY did Jesus tell the Apostles to do?
    (3 things)
     
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  15. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    I did not say that. What I said is that God in me has the power. The reason people sin any way when they have God in them is because they hold on to their own reins or take them back from God and make their own decisions: They/we quench the Holy Spirit within us.

    The only one Jesus saved on the cross was his own body of flesh. For us, he opened up the door [himself] to enable others to pass through into the place where is the Tree of Life so as to partake of it. He opened the door, but to pass through it we must be properly prepared and attired. This is where the power of God in us by the Holy Spirit is required. When a person never moves beyond quenching the Holy Spirit within himself, he will never be properly prepared and will never partake of the Tree of Life.

    Is it? … Or is it about you denying the power of God in you to accomplish His purpose for you? The growing is to occur for us here, or it will not occur at all.
    What do you suppose John the Baptist meant here?

    "He must increase, but I must decrease. " John 3:30

    He was speaking of what had to happen within each believer in Jesus.
    God can call a sinful man, sinless?

    Undoubtedly if that was what He had wanted to do, He could have, but what He wants to do is have people who while having another alternative have chosen to give the reins [controls] to themselves to Him so that He can clean the garbage out of them and fill them up with the good things of God. Yet you say He cannot do it? If He had done it all as you say, why would He have bothered with the time allotted to each of us in the flesh at all?
     
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  16. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    You are to much in the 4 gospels. Jesus did not come to the Gentiles (He did not come to you unless you are a Jew under the law). He said so in two places. Jesus came to the Jews who were under the law of Moses. He taught the law. If you wish to be saved by what Jesus said in the 4 gospels then you must do as He said and keep the law.

    Why is it that many just refuse to see that Jesus, the one in the 4 gospels, sent Paul out to the world with a NEW gospel of God's grace built on Jesus' work on the cross. Jesus paid for all the sins of the world and you won't find that in the 4 gospels.

    When a person refuses to accept the grace gospel Paul taught that person is refusing to believe that Jesus sent Paul with that gospel. Paul was right, mankind will be judged by Paul's gospel. That means if you don't place faith in what Jesus did on the cross you will not be saved All the good works of mankind will not save anyone. Only the shed blood of Jesus paid for the sins of the world.
     
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  17. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    As it can be seen, many believe in a works theology. The OP is right on point.
     
  18. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Because HR, there's no such thing as a works gospel and a grace gospel.

    THERE'S ONLY ONE GOSPEL.
    The one JESUS taught.

    Jesus taught grace plus works.
    Paul taught grace plus works.

    What they DID NOT teach is:
    THE WORKS OF THE LAW.
    No one can be saved by the works of the law.
    N OT EVEN the O.T. persons....
    It's FAITH that saves,,,even in the O.T.

    GOD DOES NOT CHANGE.
    There's only One God.

    Jesus came to the lost sheep of Israel.
    That's where God revealed Himself.
    That's where Jesus was born.

    NOW,,, study the Davidic Covenant and then come tell me WHO Jesus is the Messiah of....

    Study the Abrahamic covenant and tell me to whom A would be the father.
    Only to the Jews?

    Does the Davidic Covenant supersede the Abrahamic?
    YES!
    Jesus will the the earthly King do ALL who accept Him.

    If you stop dividing God, since He is the God of all...
    you'll understand everything better.

    JESUS IS MESSIAH TO ALL.
    He's GOD.

    Paul is an Apostle TO ALL.
    He's an Apostle of God.

    There is now no Jew or Gentile,
    Male or Female.....
    We are ONE BODY,
    we are ONE CHURCH...the Body of Christ.

    Jesus is coming back for ONE BRIDE...
    NOT TWO.
     
  19. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    There's no such animal as a works theology.
    NO ONE that I know of teaches that we are saved by works.
    OK?
     
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  20. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    If all that is written about is our need to have good works then it is a works theology, period.
     
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