What makes any given branch of Christianity an authority over my life?

[Allegiant]

My faith life, I mean. I'm hoping to broaden the options at the moment.

The three main branches of Christians, those being the Roman Catholics, the Orthodox Christians, and the Protestants, are at variance with each other on simple matters as well as more difficult problems. This is to say that even though there is widespread agreement on things that essentially dictate the notion of 'being Christian' (with some exceptions), there is a substantial burden placed on the Christian who asks a question like the one I have asked in the thread title. There is not much agreement where our ability to govern ought to come from. I don't think it's as simple as finding out where we all do agree unanimously and selecting that as the sole authority over our lives (i.e. the Bible), as that method lends itself to bias. Thus we have that burden of deeply examining the issue for ourselves, and hopefully coming to a sustainable conclusion.

So how do we examine the question posed?

I have of course done a bit of digging. I have found some methods, and formed some opinions, but I have no definitive answer on what makes a given branch of Christianity an authority over considerations on faith.

The general agreement that each branch is genuinely Christian (for the most part) is something I haven't given up on. But I think it's important to know why we are Christian aside from having achieved a minimum requirement of Christian orthodoxy.

 

[TopherNelson]

No one.
"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."
But One.

 

[HammerStone]

I look at it this way, there is a unique degree of unity in what all three claim. All 3 branches fall flat on their face if Jesus is not a historical person. Paul recognized and admitted as much from almost the beginning in 1 Corinthians 15:14. In this reality, at least, they are unified to a sort of minimum level of orthodoxy as you put it.

Any robust understanding of Christianity must recognize that any claim to perfection is exclusive to the Godhead. All three branches also acknowledge the imperfection of followers and the need for something called sanctification with the eventual goal of glorification (Romans 8:30) manifested most poignantly on the mount of transfiguration. Thus, whatever collection of followers that assembles, must be somewhat imperfect, even if the Holy Spirit is at work in perfecting us, which all branches play some degree of semantics with.

Now, some of what I've discovered is sociological and based on experience, but at the end of the day people like to "tribe off." You see it in politics, you see it in sports, and you see it in the consumption of products (think Coke vs Pepsi). Everyone likes to belong and feel that their version of doing something or using something is the best, most intelligent way. Everyone wants a winner. You also have a document (the Bible) which moved inextricably from meticulous description of how things should be to seemingly leaving things almost wide open, so various authorities (people) have their interpretations of this move.

Also at work in this, is that there is no formulaic route to get to Christ. As much as my Protestant brethren love to narrow it down to a prayer, we are all at various stages in our walk. That's quite a few moving pieces at work, and I am comfortable in understanding that God's best suited to be in charge of them, as I lack the understanding to know who is right and who is wrong with absolute clarity. I don't know about you, but for me the really hard part of Christianity is living the day to day. I think Jesus and later Paul and others was so focused on sharing the gospel because if you can teach something, then you know it to some degree and are forced to live it to have any logical agreement.

I've slowly adopted the Jesus prayer into my life, and as I turned on the TV a few weeks back when my state was having a "1,000 year flood," the very first thought that crossed my mind upon the first image of a place in the capital city where I shared many meals with my wife, coworkers, and friends having been submerged was "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on us!" As I sat there, I remember that being a sort of holy moment where my very first thought was about God and us needing his mercy to endure, almost surprising myself as it lept ahead of all of the sort of logical and material thoughts I'd have with such an event. I somehow felt in prayer with others for the people being pulled out of their normally dry homes by boat. I only later realized I was reciting that prayer probably with a large number of Catholics and Orthodox on the same morning. I marveled a bit at how God had shown this Methodist/Southern Baptist in a southern state so much that he was united to almost alien cultures in prayer at that moment.

It's sort of how in the passage above, Christ was praying for the then and there, yet somehow, almost mysteriously, he uttered a prayer that would affect a couple people with screen names on a forum nearly 2,000 years later named Allegiant, davidnelson, and HammerStone. The prayer would be "valid" for Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox. The problem is not him, it's us, and that understanding should color even down to how we fellowship and worship.

So how do we examine? I think we constantly examine ourselves.

 

[Barrd]

I look at it this way, there is a unique degree of unity in what all three claim. All 3 branches fall flat on their face if Jesus is not a historical person. Paul recognized and admitted as much from almost the beginning in 1 Corinthians 15:14. In this reality, at least, they are unified to a sort of minimum level of orthodoxy as you put it.

Any robust understanding of Christianity must recognize that any claim to perfection is exclusive to the Godhead. All three branches also acknowledge the imperfection of followers and the need for something called sanctification with the eventual goal of glorification (Romans 8:30) manifested most poignantly on the mount of transfiguration. Thus, whatever collection of followers that assembles, must be somewhat imperfect, even if the Holy Spirit is at work in perfecting us, which all branches play some degree of semantics with.

Now, some of what I've discovered is sociological and based on experience, but at the end of the day people like to "tribe off." You see it in politics, you see it in sports, and you see it in the consumption of products (think Coke vs Pepsi). Everyone likes to belong and feel that their version of doing something or using something is the best, most intelligent way. Everyone wants a winner. You also have a document (the Bible) which moved inextricably from meticulous description of how things should be to seemingly leaving things almost wide open, so various authorities (people) have their interpretations of this move.

Also at work in this, is that there is no formulaic route to get to Christ. As much as my Protestant brethren love to narrow it down to a prayer, we are all at various stages in our walk. That's quite a few moving pieces at work, and I am comfortable in understanding that God's best suited to be in charge of them, as I lack the understanding to know who is right and who is wrong with absolute clarity. I don't know about you, but for me the really hard part of Christianity is living the day to day. I think Jesus and later Paul and others was so focused on sharing the gospel because if you can teach something, then you know it to some degree and are forced to live it to have any logical agreement.

I've slowly adopted the Jesus prayer into my life, and as I turned on the TV a few weeks back when my state was having a "1,000 year flood," the very first thought that crossed my mind upon the first image of a place in the capital city where I shared many meals with my wife, coworkers, and friends having been submerged was "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on us!" As I sat there, I remember that being a sort of holy moment where my very first thought was about God and us needing his mercy to endure, almost surprising myself as it lept ahead of all of the sort of logical and material thoughts I'd have with such an event. I somehow felt in prayer with others for the people being pulled out of their normally dry homes by boat. I only later realized I was reciting that prayer probably with a large number of Catholics and Orthodox on the same morning. I marveled a bit at how God had shown this Methodist/Southern Baptist in a southern state so much that he was united to almost alien cultures in prayer at that moment.

It's sort of how in the passage above, Christ was praying for the then and there, yet somehow, almost mysteriously, he uttered a prayer that would affect a couple people with screen names on a forum nearly 2,000 years later named Allegiant, davidnelson, and HammerStone. The prayer would be "valid" for Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox. The problem is not him, it's us, and that understanding should color even down to how we fellowship and worship.

So how do we examine? I think we constantly examine ourselves.

This is a beautiful, Hammerstone.
Thank you for sharing this.

 

[Wormwood]

Allegiant,

Although I understand your concern that "bias" rules the day when the Bible is made the sole rule of authority, I still do not think this should disqualify it as the sole rule of faith and practice. When we look at the NT, we see Jesus regularly criticizing the Pharisees and other religious leaders because they had allowed their traditions to overrule what is written. Jesus assumed that the Scriptures were understandable and that they were the final authority that ended all debate on a matter. When tempted, Jesus referred to the Scriptures. When debating the Pharisees, Jesus referred to the Scriptures.

I do believe we should recognize authorities even from segments of Christianity whether we agree or disagree with them (just as we might recognize the authorities of various governments and give respect to whom respect is due). However, we will each stand accountable before God for our lives. In that day, I believe the real question will come down to: did you accept my word and did you obey it? We will not be able to appeal to pastors, popes, or traditions as valid rationale for not being obedient. We should seek to learn from our leaders and recognize that the Holy Spirit works in them to build us up in a knowledge of the truth. Yet again, that does not relieve our responsibility of being subject first and foremost to the revelation of God he has provided for us in the Scriptures.

 

[Barrd]

Isn't the final authority Jesus Christ, Who is the Head of the church?
Look to Him, then, and not to men, for your authority.

 

[mjrhealth]

Isn't the final authority Jesus Christ, Who is the Head of the church?
Look to Him, then, and not to men, for your authority.

Must agree with that one.

Mar 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mar 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
Mar 10:44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
Mar 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

 

[OzSpen]

Isn't the final authority Jesus Christ, Who is the Head of the church?
Look to Him, then, and not to men, for your authority.

The Barrd,

From where do you obtain information that tells you that Jesus Christ is the final authority and Head of the church? Is that obtained from a dream, some revelation of the gifts of the Spirit, Scripture or somewhere else?

I'm asking a serious question as we too easily say Jesus is the final authority but we don't give the source for that information.

Am I being too difficult in asking for this kind of clarification?

Oz

 

[Barrd]

The Barrd,

From where do you obtain information that tells you that Jesus Christ is the final authority and Head of the church? Is that obtained from a dream, some revelation of the gifts of the Spirit, Scripture or somewhere else?

I'm asking a serious question as we too easily say Jesus is the final authority but we don't give the source for that information.

Am I being too difficult in asking for this kind of clarification?

Oz

It seems obvious to me, but there is scripture to back me up:

Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.


Are you being difficult? No, not really. I'm just amazed that anyone would ask me this.
I thought it was obvious....it is His church, it belongs to Him. Who else is the Head of it? Who else would have the final authority over it?

 

[OzSpen]

It seems obvious to me, but there is scripture to back me up:

Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.


Are you being difficult? No, not really. I'm just amazed that anyone would ask me this.
I thought it was obvious....it is His church, it belongs to Him. Who else is the Head of it? Who else would have the final authority over it?

The issue I'm trying to raise is that we would not know that Christ has authority over all things and is the head of the church, unless it was revealed to us in the authoritative, God-breathed Scripture (2 Tim 3:16-17 ESV).

Would you agree that we would never know this profound information about Christ and his authority unless God revealed it to us? This revelation didn't come through an individualistic or group dream, vision or gifts of the Spirit, but through authoritative and reliable Scriptures that have been given to us by God, but written by human beings (2 Peter 1:20-21 ESV).

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Allegiant,

Although I understand your concern that "bias" rules the day when the Bible is made the sole rule of authority, I still do not think this should disqualify it as the sole rule of faith and practice. When we look at the NT, we see Jesus regularly criticizing the Pharisees and other religious leaders because they had allowed their traditions to overrule what is written. Jesus assumed that the Scriptures were understandable and that they were the final authority that ended all debate on a matter. When tempted, Jesus referred to the Scriptures. When debating the Pharisees, Jesus referred to the Scriptures.

I do believe we should recognize authorities even from segments of Christianity whether we agree or disagree with them (just as we might recognize the authorities of various governments and give respect to whom respect is due). However, we will each stand accountable before God for our lives. In that day, I believe the real question will come down to: did you accept my word and did you obey it? We will not be able to appeal to pastors, popes, or traditions as valid rationale for not being obedient. We should seek to learn from our leaders and recognize that the Holy Spirit works in them to build us up in a knowledge of the truth. Yet again, that does not relieve our responsibility of being subject first and foremost to the revelation of God he has provided for us in the Scriptures.

Wormwood,

This is where the message of 1 John 4:1 (ESV) is so critical for all Christians: 'Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world'.

It doesn't matter whether the pastor or teacher is Pope or humble Sunday school teacher. All Christians have a responsibility to be people of discernment when it comes to accepting or rejecting teaching.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (ESV) is very clear what every Christian should do: 'Test everything; hold fast what is good'. There are too many suckers in the pews who suck in too many 'good' ideas from the pulpit without testing them according to Scripture.

Oz

 

[Barrd]

The issue I'm trying to raise is that we would not know that Christ has authority over all things and is the head of the church, unless it was revealed to us in the authoritative, God-breathed Scripture (2 Tim 3:16-17 ESV).

Would you agree that we would never know this profound information about Christ and his authority unless God revealed it to us? This revelation didn't come through an individualistic or group dream, vision or gifts of the Spirit, but through authoritative and reliable Scriptures that have been given to us by God, but written by human beings (2 Peter 1:20-21 ESV).

Oz

Well, when you come right down to it, how would we know that there was such a thing as the church, or for that matter, how would we have ever even heard of Jesus Christ, were these things not written for us in the authoritative, God-breathed Scripture?

Of course, I believe with all of my heart, and all of my mind, and all of my strength, that if somehow, every Bible on the face of the planet were destroyed, God could and would still reveal Himself to those who have ears to hear and eyes to see.

Oz, have you ever heard of the books that D C Talk put out some years ago, entitled "Jesus Freaks"? I have two of them. They are kinda like a modern day "Fox's Martyrs"....full of stories of people who have suffered for their Christian faith.
One story in particular does touch on what we are discussing....well, sort of. It concerns a young Chinese mother, who was out cutting grass, so that she could dry it and sell it. She had her little baby with her. A hungry tiger, looking for a meal, threatened her and her child, and she remembered something a missionary had said one afternoon...."Jesus saves."
Now, she had no idea Who Jesus was, but she had believed the missionary. Unfortunately, he had left before she could learn any more, but she had held on to those two simple words....and now that she and her child were in mortal danger, she cried out to this Jesus....and to her utter amazement, not to mention, her great relief, the tiger turned from her. It seemed he had found easier prey in a couple of goats who had wandered off from the herd. As he turned to stalk the goats, she grabbed up her baby and ran for safety.
After that experience, of course, she simply had to know more, and she was relentless in her pursuit of God. Now, God has promised that all who seek Him will find Him...and of course, the lady found Him. Today, she and her daughter are both devoted Christians.

Beautiful story, isn't it?
Do you believe it?
I do.

 

[Wormwood]

Wormwood,

This is where the message of 1 John 4:1 (ESV) is so critical for all Christians: 'Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world'.

It doesn't matter whether the pastor or teacher is Pope or humble Sunday school teacher. All Christians have a responsibility to be people of discernment when it comes to accepting or rejecting teaching.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (ESV) is very clear what every Christian should do: 'Test everything; hold fast what is good'. There are too many suckers in the pews who suck in too many 'good' ideas from the pulpit without testing them according to Scripture.

Oz

I agree Oz. The words of Scripture are inspired for a reason. They are sufficient for us to understand and believe (cf. John 20:31). Just as the nations have no excuse for the existence of God because his power and attributes are clearly seen through what he has created, so the hearer of the words of God in the Scriptures have all that is needed for life and obedience to the truth. The testimony of Scripture is completely sufficient and if someone will not respond to them, then nothing will suffice (cf. Luke 16:31).

 

[OzSpen]

Well, when you come right down to it, how would we know that there was such a thing as the church, or for that matter, how would we have ever even heard of Jesus Christ, were these things not written for us in the authoritative, God-breathed Scripture?

Of course, I believe with all of my heart, and all of my mind, and all of my strength, that if somehow, every Bible on the face of the planet were destroyed, God could and would still reveal Himself to those who have ears to hear and eyes to see.

Oz, have you ever heard of the books that D C Talk put out some years ago, entitled "Jesus Freaks"? I have two of them. They are kinda like a modern day "Fox's Martyrs"....full of stories of people who have suffered for their Christian faith.
One story in particular does touch on what we are discussing....well, sort of. It concerns a young Chinese mother, who was out cutting grass, so that she could dry it and sell it. She had her little baby with her. A hungry tiger, looking for a meal, threatened her and her child, and she remembered something a missionary had said one afternoon...."Jesus saves."
Now, she had no idea Who Jesus was, but she had believed the missionary. Unfortunately, he had left before she could learn any more, but she had held on to those two simple words....and now that she and her child were in mortal danger, she cried out to this Jesus....and to her utter amazement, not to mention, her great relief, the tiger turned from her. It seemed he had found easier prey in a couple of goats who had wandered off from the herd. As he turned to stalk the goats, she grabbed up her baby and ran for safety.
After that experience, of course, she simply had to know more, and she was relentless in her pursuit of God. Now, God has promised that all who seek Him will find Him...and of course, the lady found Him. Today, she and her daughter are both devoted Christians.

Beautiful story, isn't it?
Do you believe it?
I do.

Yes, it is a lovely story, The Baard. But how did the missionary know that "Jesus saves"?

There would be no message of salvation except for that delivered through Scripture.

 

[Barrd]

Yes, it is a lovely story, The Baard. But how did the missionary know that "Jesus saves"?

There would be no message of salvation except for that delivered through Scripture.

<_< Your point is taken, my brother.
And I agree.

 

[OzSpen]

<_< Your point is taken, my brother.
And I agree.

The Barrd,

It is important for us to emphasise that the Almighty God who created the world and sent Jesus to die on the cross and be raised for our justification (Rom 4:25 ESV), is the one who breathed out the Bible (2 Tim 3:16-17 ESV). There is a person on this forum who chastises people who 'worship the bible' (my paraphrase). The fact is that those of us with a high view of God and his saving power ought to have a high view of Scripture. Why? Because 'all Scripture is God-breathed'.

Oz

 

[Barrd]

The Barrd,

It is important for us to emphasise that the Almighty God who created the world and sent Jesus to die on the cross and be raised for our justification (Rom 4:25 ESV), is the one who breathed out the Bible (2 Tim 3:16-17 ESV). There is a person on this forum who chastises people who 'worship the bible' (my paraphrase). The fact is that those of us with a high view of God and his saving power ought to have a high view of Scripture. Why? Because 'all Scripture is God-breathed'.

Oz

I know the person you mean. I don't mess with him any more.
Yes, Oz, Scripture is "God-breathed".

 

[KingJ]

What makes any given branch of Christianity an authority over my life?

The bible. We need to make a branch an authority

Heb 13:17, Eph 5:21 and Heb 10:25.

It gets really complicated when choosing one as there are denoms in denoms.

I believe we have to be lead. I believe that we will never be lead to a place that exalts flesh more then the spirit. So if we don't feel lead, use that brain matter to discern the least carnal church.

 

[mjrhealth]

I know the person you mean. I don't mess with him any more.
Yes, Oz, Scripture is "God-breathed".

Its ok Bard I wont ignore you just because we disagree. Im grown up.. And by the way the bible doesnt say it is God breathed in fact if you read it.

Joh_5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

what did Jesus say.. oh thats right, "you THINK you have eternal life". than

Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Now He also says,

Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Now if the bible was God breathed it could only produce life, Jesus says scripture doesnt.

I guess 10 million confused, bickering, arguing christians cant be wrong.

There is a whole book in there called revelation, guess where John got it from, give you a clue.

Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

And that is why so few christains know God.

In all His Love

 

[KingJ]

Its ok Bard I wont ignore you just because we disagree. Im grown up.. And by the way the bible doesnt say it is God breathed in fact if you read it.

Joh_5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

what did Jesus say.. oh thats right, "you THINK you have eternal life". than

Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Now He also says,

Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Now if the bible was God breathed it could only produce life, Jesus says scripture doesnt.

I guess 10 million confused, bickering, arguing christians cant be wrong.

There is a whole book in there called revelation, guess where John got it from, give you a clue.

Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

And that is why so few christains know God.

In all His Love

Quite a good argument actually. There is a lot of truth in that green line.

But there are quite a few elephants in the room that you are not dealing with.

The fact that God did reveal this truth to the writers. What they say is what God said. Now if God has ''already'' used someone to explain what is written in Revelation's. Why would He use someone else? Why would He give someone else a different message? He did not give the revelation to Abraham or Moses. He gave it to John.