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Featured What Was Israel Ordained For?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Davy, Apr 8, 2019.

  1. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    1. First point, which must be understood - The Gospel was prepared before the foundation of the world. Even as early as Gen.3 a hint of The Gospel of Jesus Christ was shown with the idea of the crucifixion with the bruising of the heel. In Malachi 4, and Romans 9, we are shown that before Jacob (Israel) and Esau were born, that God loved Jacob, but hated Esau, even before either child had chance to do good or evil. Thus God ordained Jacob by predestination.

    2. The Gospel was given first, before God's law. God's Promise to Abraham was by Faith, and Abraham believed, and it was counted to Abraham as righteousness. Those in Christ Jesus have believed on that same Faith as The Gospel was preached to Abraham according to Apostle Paul (Gal.3).

    3. God's Promise to Abraham included other promises which are part of Abraham's inheritance which is God's Birthright promises to Israel, and are part of the inheritance of all believers on Christ Jesus. For during this present world, they are:

    a. inheritance of a seed as many as the stars of the sky and sands of the sea.
    b. inheritance of the best resources on earth, i.e., the fatness of the earth, plenty of corn and wine.
    c. the power to control the gates of thy enemies, i.e., greatest military power.
    d. nations bow down to thee.
    e. Christ's throne He is to inherit.
    f. Care of God's laws.

    4. God's Birthright promises were originally only for the nation of Israel, as God had originally ordained Israel to be a nation of priests. All Israel rebelled against Him, so He split Israel into two kingdoms and into two separate captivities as He had promised He would do if they disobeyed Him (Deut.4 & 28).

    5. The ten northern tribe "kingdom of Israel" was removed from the holy land first. These were taken to Assyria and the lands of the Medes, and never returned as a people. They were further scattered through the countries. But God showed they will be gathered in final (Ezek.37 as the stick of Joseph).

    6. When our Lord Jesus was born through woman's womb, He came to seal The Gospel Promise by His crucifixion on a cross. The majority of Jews in Judea from a remnant of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi that returned to Jerusalem after their Babylon captivity, rejected Jesus as The Christ. Jesus then showed by parable that His vineyard (ten tribes) would be taken from those men and instead given to another 'nation' that would bear its fruits (Gospel).

    7. After the Jews rejected The Gospel in Jerusalem, Jesus' disciples took The Gospel to the Gentiles, which scattered Israel were among those Gentiles. Many of both believed on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, God's Promised Saviour, and they together became His Church.

    8. The Birthright Promises first given through Abraham and to Israel then migrated to the believing Israelites among Christ's Church. God removed David's throne from Jerusalem, but it was setup elsewhere under Christ, on earth where it still is today, waiting for Christ's coming to claim it as His natural right. The Gospel followed with it to new lands, to the fatness of the earth.

    9. Yet for the Jews of the house of Judah, God still promised He would always leave one tribe in Jerusalem for David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake (1 Kings 11). Thus, there has always been a small remnant of Judah there, even though David's throne was removed, and many of God's Birthright blessings were removed from there; like Jesus said to the unbelieving Jews at the end of Matt.23, their house would be left desolate.

    To this day, the unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem do not control all of the city of Jerusalem. The United Nations controls most of their borders, and their borders do not fit God's Promise to Abraham, nor even the original borders God gave Israel long ago. Even though today's lands in Israel are becoming more fruitful, it's still not comparable to best lands on earth, and the nation of Israel does not fit the greatest military power on earth today.

    So where did God move the majority of His Birthright promises? As much as the orthodox Jews want us to believe that today's nation state of Israel is a Biblical comparison of God's Salvation Plan, it is definitely not! The majority of Jews in today's Israel still reject The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    10. God's vineyard, in the parable of the husbandmen in Matthew 21, was moved to the "multitude of nations" that Ephraim's seed was to become (Gen.48). God had promised Jacob that his seed would become "a company of nations" also (Gen.35), and not just one nation known as Israel. Where do you think those "multitude of nations" were, and are? They are the historical Christian West and their allied Christian nations.

    Thus The Gospel did go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (ten lost tribes) like our Lord Jesus said. And there they would bring forth its fruits, being sent as ambassadors of The Gospel to the nations. And together they with believing Gentiles would become Christ's Church, Apostle Paul's "commonwealth of Israel" per Ephesians 2.
     
  2. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    How could it. They do not exists, just like the hitites, gauls, huns, etc etc.

    Isreal was to have been an example of a people living under the just and benidical rule of God.
    This was to excite the interest of the world to come andenquire about God.

    The Jews in the past failed to do this and the jews in Israel are not even trying to do it.
     
  3. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Why don't you just write your OWN Bible version if you're not going to believe God's Word as written?

    Amos 9:8-12
    8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.

    9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.


    10 All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.

    11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

    12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by My name, saith the LORD That doeth this.
    KJV
     
  4. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    Would you please clarify.
    Are you saying that people whose ancestry contains a Jewish element will because of that ancestry be regarded as Jewish and that dispite not worshipping God as a Jew or as a Christian will be saved.
    or
    Are you saying that devout Jews living somewhere in the world, unknown to modern Jewery/Israel etc will be returned to Israel.

    There is also the argument that ;Israel' represents ALL those, both jew and gentile who follow Jesus and it is these those passages are talking about.
     
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  5. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    Israel's purpose is to bless the whole world as promised to Abraham. And this we do by preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ.... to the whole world.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
  6. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    I was interested to reply, until I read this.

    But to throw my 2 cents in . . . the believing Jews from the 10 northern tribe moved to Judah after the division of the nation, and again I think during Hezekiah's time, when the feasts were re-established.

    There are no 10 lost tribes.

    Much love!
    Mark
     
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  7. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    How can I explain this to you when you reveal you haven't studied enough of your Bible for yourself, but have instead been busy listening to men's doctrines? I mean that honestly, and not as a put down.

    If you knew your Bible history, then...

    Southern Kingdom of Judah: (Jews)
    tribe of Judah
    tribe of Benjamin
    tribe of Levi
    (some small remnants of the northern ten tribes that left the north)
    (strangers living in Judea)


    Northern Kingdom of Israel: (NOT Jews, but majority of Israelites)
    tribe of Ephraim (head tribe, God made Jeroboam king over the ten northern tribes)
    tribe of Manasseh
    tribe of Naphtali
    tribe of Dan
    tribe of Simeon
    tribe of Zebulon
    tribe of Issachar
    tribe of Asher
    tribe of Gad
    tribe of Reuben

    God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms after Solomon's days. 1 Kings 11 forward.

    The "house of Israel" after that split only represented the northern ten tribe kingdom, called the "kingdom of Israel". The name Jew came from the tribe of Judah and was used only by those of the Southern kingdom at Judea in the south. Got it? South means below... the north! Northern kingdom in the topmost lands, and the Southern kingdom in the southern most lands.

    Amos 9 is a prophecy about God gathering the ten lost tribes of Israel in final. You can question Him when He comes as to His Plan for the seed of Israel, since you probably don't trust Scripture like that Amos 9 Scripture I quoted.
     
  8. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    No, the MAJORITY of Israelites from the ten northern tribes did NOT... migrate south to join Judah. Only a small REMNANT of ten-tribe Israelites joined with Judah. The majority of the ten tribes remained in the north, and made up the "kingdom of Israel", and they were NOT Jews. You've been lied to. Read your Bible for yourself, and do some historical research for yourself.
     
  9. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Hi Davy,

    Perhaps you may want to re-read my post. I didn't say the majority of the Jews, I said the believing Jews.

    Who lied to me? I read that in the Bible.

    Yes, I read it for myself.

    Actually, aside from limited reading of news, and researching specific topics, the Bible is the only thing I do read. Oh, and forum posts, of course.

    But check Romans 9, the true Israelites are the believing. And that's who moved south into Judah.

    On a separate note, I'm curious, why did you assume that I was repeating something someone else told me, and assuming this was not something I read in Scripture?

    Much love!
    mark
     
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  10. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Right after you said that though, you stated there are no 10 lost tribes. That is to say they were either, 1 - all destroyed, or 2 - they were all migrated in among Judah (Jews). Either idea is false. The Amos 9 Scripture I quoted is direct proof they still exist in the world today, but are lost to the Jews, to themselves, and to the world, but they will in final be gathered. In other words, God knows where He scattered them and who they are today. A simple Bible proof of this many don't even stop to think about is Genesis 49...

    Gen 49:1
    49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, "Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days."
    KJV


    Jacob gave a separate message for each of his 12 sons, telling them what would happen to them in the "last days". That means our days involving all 12 tribes of Israel. Even the 144,000 of Revelation 7 is proof of their continued existence to the last days of this world.

    It is a common mistake by those not studied in the OT about God's split of old Israel into two separate kingdoms, to mistake all Israelites as Jews, when the title of Jew originated with those of the southern "kingdom of Judah", the name being derived from the sole tribe of Judah. The tribes of Benjamin and Levi took that name also because they were joined in that southern kingdom with Judah. Foreigners also took the name, as king Herod, a Jew, was actually an Idumean of Esau. The northern kingdom Israelites did not use that label Jew.

    No, that idea is definitely false! By that you just implied that orthodox Jews in king Jeroboam's days believed on Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus hadn't come yet in their day when God split old Israel into two kingdoms.

    In Romans 9, Paul was talking about believers on Christ Jesus. The Israelite remnant from the ten northern tribes in Jeroboam's day that went to side with Judah in the south, and became Jews with the "kingdom of Judah", did NOT believe on Jesus Christ as Messiah. Jesus had not come at that point in history in Jeroboam's day.



    Because the idea that all Israelites are Jews is a common misconception and doctrine pushed by the Biblically illiterate.
     
  11. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Hi Davy,

    Would you please elaborate on this from Scripture? Show passages that give this understanding?

    Thank you!
    Much love!
    mark
     
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  12. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Hi Davy,

    We can agree that all 12 tribes still exist, and that God divided the kingdom. I would contend that the moniker "Jew" came to mean all Israelites, and that some from each tribe continued to live in the promised land in Roman times.

    This would be what Paul is speaking of in:

    Acts 26:6-8
    And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God, unto our fathers: Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

    The Twelve Tribes were serving God. Where?

    No, that's not the only conclusion that can be drawn. They didn't worship the golden calves.

    Thank you for actually answering this question! Most people don't. They just pass right on by . . .

    Much love!
    mark
     
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  13. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Would you mind elaborating on this part also?

    Would you please show me the passages in Scripture that teach where David's throne is?

    Much love!
    mark
     
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  14. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Hi Davy,

    One other thing comes to mind as I read your words,

    Matthew 10:5-7
    These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    Doesn't this passage tell us that the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" were not in the lands of the Gentiles? Or in the city of the Samaritans? Where else does that leave?

    It seems to me that Jesus is telling His disciples, don't go to the Gentiles, don't go to the Samaritans, stay in Israel, to bring the gospel to the lost sheep of Israel.

    Much love!

    Mark
     
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  15. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    The vineyard in that Matt.21 parable is a symbol for the "house of Israel" (ten tribes of Israel). The Bible student was supposed to have already read this Isaiah 5 Scripture before they read our Lord Jesus' parable of the husbandmen in Matthew 21.

    Isa 5:1-7
    5:1 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:

    2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.

    3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt Me and My vineyard.

    4 What could have been done more to My vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

    5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:

    6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.

    7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah His pleasant plant: and He looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.

    KJV

    Because of the Canaanites that crept in among Judah at Jerusalem, and thus the scribes who were foreigner Kenites (1 Chron.2:55), the Pharisees, scribe office, and the priesthood had become corrupted by the time Jesus first appeared in Jerusalem. They rejected Him and the Kingdom, thus Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of the "house of Israel", the ten lost tribes that God had scattered first out of the holy land back in 2 Kings 18.
     
  16. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    "So the Jews prepared for the work. That is the name they are called by from the day that they came up from Babylon; which is taken from the tribe of Judah,. which came first to these places, and thence both they and the countrey gained that appellation."
    (Antiquities of the Jews, Flavius Josephus, book XI, chapter 5.7)

    The title of Jew was a label that those returning from the Babylon captivity of the house of Judah used for themselves, including for all peoples living in Judea. It did not involve the northern ten tribes who had already been removed before the Jews went into their 70 years Babylon captivity by the king of Babylon. Then ten northern tribe "kingdom of Israel" was taken captive in their own captivity about 130 years prior to Judah's. This is Bible 101.

    That is why Apostle Paul said he was both born of the tribe of Benjamin, and was a Jew. it's because the tribe of Benjamin joined with the tribe of Judah at God's split of old Israel into two separate kingdoms (1 Kings 11 through 13).

    Not sure where you coming from with that question. I must assume you mean after they were removed from the holy lands. The answer is, God had promised a remnant of them would know about their being scattered, and eventually in the land where He said to them, 'Ye are not My people', it would be said to them, "Ye are the sons of the living God". This Apostle Paul quoted from the Book of Hosea to Roman Christians in Romans 9. The first verse of the Book of James addresses the 12 tribes scattered abroad, and James isn't just addressing Jews.


    Those of the ten northern tribes that left Jeroboam's "kingdom of Israel" and instead joined with Judah most likely did refuse Jeroboam's golden calf worship. In Chronicles we are told the Levites in the north left because Jeroboam made common priests of the people, which prevented the Levites in the north from doing their duties. So the northern Levites left and joined with Judah in the southern kingdom also.
     
  17. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Study Genesis 49:10 and 2 Samuel 7.
     
  18. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    2 Kings 17:24-25
    24 And the king of Assyria brought men from Babylon, and from Cuthah, and from Ava, and from Hamath, and from Sepharvaim, and placed them in the cities of Samaria instead of the children of Israel: and they possessed Samaria, and dwelt in the cities thereof.
    25 And so it was at the beginning of their dwelling there, that they feared not the LORD: therefore the LORD sent lions among them, which slew some of them.
    KJV


    By the time of Jesus' 1st coming, the ten tribes had long before been removed from the northern lands by the kings of Assyria, and in their place the king of Assyria filled the land with foreigners from Babylon, which became the Samaritans in Jesus' day. The Jews wouldn't have anything to do with those Samaritans because the Jews in Judea only represented the children of Israel at that time.

    You forgot this:

    Matt 28:18-20
    18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, 'All power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth.
    19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
    20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
    KJV


    Jesus in final told His disciples to go preach The Gospel to all... nations. So you can't just cut that off at Jerusalem.

    And you forgot this:

    Luke 2:36-38
    36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;
    37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.
    38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.
    KJV


    Anna was of the tribe of Asher ("Aser" per the Greek). That shows how some remnants of the northern ten tribes in Jeroboam's day had left the north and joined with the Jews in the southern kingdom. So of course there were northern Israelites joined with the "house of Judah" at Jerusalem. And the timing of Matt.10 that you quoted was the requirement that The Gospel be sent to those at Jerusalem first! So you must have forgotten about that too.
     
  19. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    It's much simpler than that.

    God ordained Israel to be a light unto the world for God. Missionaries, priests and preachers. A nation of God.

    But they failed. But they will succeed in the kingdom under the covenant to the houses of Judah and Israel.
     
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  20. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Actually, I didn't find these relevant towards whether there are 10 lost tribes.

    Much love!
    Mark
     
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