When Arguments Become Obsurd

[Justin Mangonel]

Hi all,

I have noticed that when an arguement against a certain position has to stretch so far as to become obsured it usually means that the arguement itself is wrong. People take positions, which they intitially feel are right, and defend them with such vigor that, when the force of logoic and reason prevail, crowed them into a corner forcing them making rediculous statements. At that time, I would suggest, it is time to capitualate and at least admit that they do not have the truth. Yet this rarely happenes. Why is this? Is it pride? Or do they have some person position that motivates them to defend what they believe because that allows them to keep the status quo in their life? I don't know what evil lurks in the hearts of men...grin.

 

[Foreigner]

. At that time, I would suggest, it is time to capitualate and at least admit that they do not have the truth.

-- Great idea. Lead by example.

 

[biggandyy]

I'm sorry... I just can't take the OP seriously...

 

[Angelina]

It reminds of a veil that has gone over their minds, not unlike the Israel today. :huh:

 

[revturmoil]

I'm sorry... I just can't take the OP seriously...

What are you doing as moderator anyway??? The man has a legitimate OP. I see what he's saying constantly on this forum!

 

[biggandyy]

Its called humor and Christians need to get it back into their vocabulary. Being saved doesn't mean being a stuffed stick in the mud.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear B,

If you wish, you can repost this at the top. I was not able to spell check it with the computer I was using and I was in a bit of hurry that day.

"
Hi all,

I have noticed that when an argument against a certain position has to stretch so far as to become absurd it usually means that the argument itself is wrong. People take positions, which they initially feel are right, and defend them with such vigor that, when the force of logic and reason prevail, crowding them into a corner it forces them to make ridiculous statements. At that time, I would suggest, it is time to capitulate and at least admit that they do not have the truth. Yet this rarely happens. Why is this? Is it pride? Or do they have some person position that motivates them to defend what they believe because that allows them to keep the status quo in their life? I don't know what evil lurks in the hearts of men...grin. "

However bad my grammar is my point is that much of the time what we are dealing with, even in doctrinal discussions, is not reason, nor scripture, nor truth, but rather strongly held positions that do not yield to any amount of sound biblical exegesis. Even when people, who are gifted with patience and teaching ability that I do not posess, take the time to logically and reasonably lay out the truth in a easily understood manor still people blow them off like so much chaff.

It is my guess that understanding comes mainly through revelation which can be sometimes aided by proper teaching if the pupil is willing. Otherwise, if those we speak to do not have spiritual ears to hear or eyes to see what is spoken (or written) has little effect. Our minds are darkened because we are not walking in the light. No matter what faculties we posses if the Holy Spirit is not allowed to flow through them they are like having 20/20 vision in a pitch black cave.

I suppose this is why I do not often try to prove doctrine from scripture beyond a few references that should be obvious. If people are walking in the light they will immediately see what I am talking about and if they are not walking in the light they will never get it. You can rarely teach someone into the truth whose mind is set against it. Those who do not walk in the light bridle at this saying because they retort "how do you know you are walking in the light?" I know I am walking in the light because I listen to the voice of my Father and I am submitted to Him. I know my Fathers voice and if I hear my Fathers voice I will listen even if what you say is hard to understand. I will try to find out what is true and try to understand what you say even if it comes from a perspective I have never thought about before. In fact, when I hear my Fathers voice say something totally new through someone I rejoice as if I have found nugget of gold and I can't wait to examine it closely to learn more about it. I know that all revelation eventually has to line up with scripture but I am confident enough in my God to keep me in His will even while examining things I do not understand to see if they are so.

Love makes us want to try to see if these things are true. Love wants us to give those who speak new revelation to us a chance to freely share their mind and heart. Love makes us understand that there is a person who is speaking that is more important than what we cannot understand or even perhaps disagree with. When we strip love from the equation then all we are left with is positions that we defend without regard for how we rip and shred those we argue with. What if a forum was filled with people that loved one another more than the points they were defending. Would this not aid in the understanding of each other ? Would not such a forum prosper and be a place to build up each other in the faith? What spirit are we really of when we argue without love?

This is a whole different attitude that many who fancy themselves defenders of the faith perhaps do not fully understand. Some have learned doctrine rather than known God and they wish to make everyone conform to what they believe. I don't know where they have gotten such an idea because many times their lives are no great testimony even though they have "correct doctrine." Even though their doctrine does not come close to producing the character of Christ they nevertheless foist it upon others with a zeal which is not of God.

Personally, I am tired of doctrine. Doctrine is dry and dusty. Doctrine is old manna. Doctrine is what others have said is true. I want to see God for myself and find out what He is all about through direct personal experience. I want to live what I believe because I have been there. I don't just want to read about others who have experienced miracles I want to experience them for myself. I want to live my own book of Acts with others today, now, present tense. This is where the fun of being a Christian comes in and where we can all grow together in Him into the perfect man of the book of Ephesians.

I admit that I can be as acerbic as the next person and perhaps even more so because I understand the truth. Thus when I get angry I can cut deeper because my blade is shaper. However, I do not wish to harm but to heal. I am interested in peace and not the defeat of those I disagree with. I think there are a lot of other people who feel the same way but just don't know how to go about being different. However, we can be different...we can be different together with God's help.

 

[Groundzero]

Hi all,

I have noticed that when an arguement against a certain position has to stretch so far as to become obsured it usually means that the arguement itself is wrong. People take positions, which they intitially feel are right, and defend them with such vigor that, when the force of logoic and reason prevail, crowed them into a corner forcing them making rediculous statements. At that time, I would suggest, it is time to capitualate and at least admit that they do not have the truth. Yet this rarely happenes. Why is this? Is it pride? Or do they have some person position that motivates them to defend what they believe because that allows them to keep the status quo in their life? I don't know what evil lurks in the hearts of men...grin.

True. I think it's the frame of mind that we discuss things in. I can testify that I've made mistakes. And I've owned up to them. I think we should always keep an open mind, and be ready to stick our hands up if we are wrong, and say, I was wrong. But of course, that would require responsibility for our actions, and hey! why in the world would I want to be responsible??? lol

 

[Butch5]

Hi all,

I have noticed that when an arguement against a certain position has to stretch so far as to become obsured it usually means that the arguement itself is wrong. People take positions, which they intitially feel are right, and defend them with such vigor that, when the force of logoic and reason prevail, crowed them into a corner forcing them making rediculous statements. At that time, I would suggest, it is time to capitualate and at least admit that they do not have the truth. Yet this rarely happenes. Why is this? Is it pride? Or do they have some person position that motivates them to defend what they believe because that allows them to keep the status quo in their life? I don't know what evil lurks in the hearts of men...grin.

I think there are several reasons. One I believe is pride, they don't want to be wrong. Two, I think many have beliefs that have been passed down through generations and the idea that grandma and grandpa were wrong is simply unacceptable. However, I believe there is another reason that is rather dangerous. I believe that as Americans many Christians think they are entitled to their opinions of the Scriptures. In other words as Americans we believe that we are entitled to our opinion and free to have them as we choose. We then apply this same attitude or line of thinking to the Scriptures, so that whatever one thinks a passage means that what it means. I believe this is very dangerous. As you pointed out in the OP, people will reject sound exegesis in favor of their opinions. On another board there was a person who made a comment to the effect, anyone who rejects the grammar is delusionary. I asked him, in light of that statement how he dealt with the grammar of Ephesians 1, in which I have repeatedly shown him using the grammar that his interpretation was not possible. He eventually just left the conversation rather than accept what the grammar was saying to him. This suggested me that he was more interested in his doctrines.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear B,

Good points. Thanks for posting them.

Your observation about American Christians has some validity because we do feel very entitled as a nation. I see this manifest when people visit Africa. People just assume that our way of thinking is so great that they uneducated masses should welcome our ideas without question. I feel embarrassed these days to think how I was, unknowingly, when I first arrived.

I agree that grammar does mean things and was used by the Holy Spirit to be clear and specific.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[Butch5]

Dear B,

Good points. Thanks for posting them.

Your observation about American Christians has some validity because we do feel very entitled as a nation. I see this manifest when people visit Africa. People just assume that our way of thinking is so great that they uneducated masses should welcome our ideas without question. I feel embarrassed these days to think how I was, unknowingly, when I first arrived.

I agree that grammar does mean things and was used by the Holy Spirit to be clear and specific.

Blessings,

Justin

Hi Justin,

I really do believe this "I'm an American" attitude is very dangerous to the Christian. If one is Christian he is "not" an American. He has relinquished that citizenship for citizenship in the Kingdom of God. As Paul said, he has become a slave. A slave has no rights, yet it seems that's all we here from American Christians. We've got to rid ourselves of this attitude and become subservient to Christ. I think as Americans we attach Christianity to our lives, kind of like an add on. Instead we should be relinquishing our lives for Christ.

 

[Rex]

Hi Justin,

I really do believe this "I'm an American" attitude is very dangerous to the Christian. If one is Christian he is "not" an American. He has relinquished that citizenship for citizenship in the Kingdom of God. As Paul said, he has become a slave. A slave has no rights, yet it seems that's all we here from American Christians. We've got to rid ourselves of this attitude and become subservient to Christ. I think as Americans we attach Christianity to our lives, kind of like an add on. Instead we should be relinquishing our lives for Christ.

I like the term bond-servant,, a bond-servant in some instances was a servant that after fulfilling his servitude he was allowed to go free, but rather chose to stay with his master, in doing so sometimes a mark was placed on them like an ear piercing Psalm 40:6 Isa 50:5 Job 33:16 An awl was used to pierce the ear and into the door as a symbol, the servant to the master "ear opened" Bond servant, just as Abraham threw circumcision carried a mark of servitude. That mark today IMO is the Holy Spirit.

http://thebondservant.org/?page_id=68

What is a Bondservant?
There seems to be a lot of interest in the term Bondservant. And there is more then one answer to what a Bondservant is. Many of the New Testament’s authors counted themselves Bondservant (depending on the Bible Version you read, it may say servants.)
James starts off in James 1:1 saying:
“James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ…”
The Term Bondservant here comes from the word dulos. And is defined as:

1. a slave, bondman, man of servile condition
2. a slave
3. metaph., one who gives himself up to another’s will those whose service is used by Christ in extending and advancing his cause among men
4. devoted to another to the disregard of one’s own interests
5. a servant, attendant

The best definition here is “devoted to another to the disregard of one’s own interests.” On its basic level a bondservant is simply following your master to complete disregard of your own will, emotions, desires.

 

[Butch5]

I like the term bond-servant,, a bond-servant in some instances was a servant that after fulfilling his servitude he was allowed to go free, but rather chose to stay with his master, in doing so sometimes a mark was placed on them like an ear piercing Psalm 40:6 Isa 50:5 Job 33:16 An awl was used to pierce the ear and into the door as a symbol, the servant to the master "ear opened" Bond servant, just as Abraham threw circumcision carried a mark of servitude. That mark today IMO is the Holy Spirit.

http://thebondservant.org/?page_id=68
What is a Bondservant?
There seems to be a lot of interest in the term Bondservant. And there is more then one answer to what a Bondservant is. Many of the New Testament’s authors counted themselves Bondservant (depending on the Bible Version you read, it may say servants.)
James starts off in James 1:1 saying:
The Term Bondservant here comes from the word dulos. And is defined as:
The best definition here is “devoted to another to the disregard of one’s own interests.” On its basic level a bondservant is simply following your master to complete disregard of your own will, emotions, desires.

Hi Rex,

I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear B and R,

I agree. We are citizens of another world. We even speak a different langauge.

Blessings,

Justin