When did Jesus chase out the money changers from the temple?

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friend of

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Okay so I have some major confusion here. It says Jesus did this in John 2:13-15, at the very beggining of the book, which i can only assume would be the very beggining of His ministry. but it also says in Matthew 21:12 that He chased out the money changers from the temple, presumably at the end of His ministry due to how close that story is to the end of Matthew. Did He do this twice? Like when he fed the crowds twice? Thanks
 

quietthinker

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The Disciples are writing letters and as such they write what is foremost in their memory as it comes to mind thirty odd years later. I doubt whether what is recorded is all in precise chronological order. The chronology is something we can/ need to work out.
 
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friend of

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The Disciples are writing letters and as such they write what is foremost in their memory as it comes to mind thirty odd years later. I doubt whether what is recorded is all in precise chronological order. The chronology is something we can/ need to work out.
I just assumed it would be in chronological order because in Matthew it says he was in Jerusalem iirc but then how would He be in Jerusalem at the start of John?
 

quietthinker

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I just assumed it would be in chronological order because in Matthew it says he was in Jerusalem iirc but then how would He be in Jerusalem at the start of John?
What we have recorded on the life of Jesus is a small amount of what actually unfolded in his thee and a half years of ministry, to say nothing of his previous thirty years.

The objective is to get what his visit to our planet was about and that is to reveal the definitive character of God.
His reality answers the urgent question of the intelligent Universe.

We navel gaze; we argue about words and what not; we set up systems and fail to see what God intended us to see.....and 'kill' each other in the process.

It is not for no reason Jesus repeatedly exclaimed, 'if you have ears to hear then hear'
 

Lambano

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I remember a commentary I read for a Bible study on John whose author (Barclay?) stated that the vignettes John puts in his gospel were chosen for specific theological/apologetical reasons and are not necessarily in chronological order. ("Therefore, many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.") I don't have a problem with that - but it does bother some people.
 
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amigo de christo

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I just assumed it would be in chronological order because in Matthew it says he was in Jerusalem iirc but then how would He be in Jerusalem at the start of John?
Johns gospel seems to start much later on than some of the others . Its more towards the END of CHRISTS earthly ministry .
whereas lukes takes us to the beginning , even the birth unto the end
and mathew seems to do the same as luke . Marks is the shortest and also seems to begin more at the beginning
but not quite as far back as john and luke go . NOW LIFT THOSE HANDS . ITS LORD PRAISING TIME in the building and round
the world .
 
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amigo de christo

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I remember a commentary I read for a Bible study on John whose author (Barclay?) stated that the vignettes John puts in his gospel were chosen for specific theological/apologetical reasons and are not necessarily in chronological order. ("Therefore, many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.") I don't have a problem with that - but it does bother some people.
Yes the gospel of JOHN begins much later on in the ministry of Christ . It also goes into farther detail
about the sufferings of Christ and the diety of Christ too . Each gospel seems as if we could have one BIG GOSPEL
Every part in them is good to learn and know and it all comes together . Now lift those hands , ITS LORD praising time
again . REJOICE IN THE LORD and again and again i say REJOICE IN THE GLORIOUS LORD
 
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FaithWillDo

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What we have recorded on the life of Jesus is a small amount of what actually unfolded in his thee and a half years of ministry, to say nothing of his previous thirty years.

The objective is to get what his visit to our planet was about and that is to reveal the definitive character of God.
His reality answers the urgent question of the intelligent Universe.

We navel gaze; we argue about words and what not; we set up systems and fail to see what God intended us to see.....and 'kill' each other in the process.

It is not for no reason Jesus repeatedly exclaimed, 'if you have ears to hear then hear'
Dear quietthinker,
Just a quick question; why do you believe that Jesus' earthly ministry lasted for 3 1/2 years? Do you have any scripture?

I'm not asking you because I disagree with you. I am certain His ministry lasted 3 1/2 years, but I know of only one scripture (Dan 9:27) which teaches this truth. Do you have a second witness of scripture?

Thanks,
Joe
 

quietthinker

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Dear quietthinker,
Just a quick question; why do you believe that Jesus' earthly ministry lasted for 3 1/2 years? Do you have any scripture?

I'm not asking you because I disagree with you. I am certain His ministry lasted 3 1/2 years, but I know of only one scripture (Dan 9:27) which teaches this truth. Do you have a second witness of scripture?

Thanks,
Joe
I think the 3.5 yrs was foretold in Daniels 70 week prophecy.
This is the best chart I could find breaking this prophecy down.

daniels-70-weeks-2.png
 
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Space_Karen

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Based on logical deduction, I would guess it happened during the end of the ministry.

Pharisees and sadducees wanted to end Jesus from the beginning.

But only money changers had the deep connections, power and influence to get Pontius Pilate on the job.

The roman agenda against Jesus didn't appear until after Jesus attacked the money changers.
 

quietthinker

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Based on logical deduction, I would guess it happened during the end of the ministry.

Pharisees and sadducees wanted to end Jesus from the beginning.

But only money changers had the deep connections, power and influence to get Pontius Pilate on the job.

The roman agenda against Jesus didn't appear until after Jesus attacked the money changers.
where do we find the Roman agenda?
 

Space_Karen

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where do we find the Roman agenda?

Pharisees and sadducees were jews lacking influence in the roman empire sufficient to get Pontius Pilate on the case.

Only money changers had the international connections to influence a roman official like Pontius Pilate into prosecuting Jesus for claiming to be king of the jews.

As many have remarked Pontius Pilate was hesitant and reluctant to follow through on this. He didn't take it seriously and tried to give Jesus a way out of it. Pilate knew it was a crooked agenda.
 
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quietthinker

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Pharisees and sadducees were jews lacking influence in the roman empire sufficient to get Pontius Pilate on the case.

Only money changers had the international connections to influence a roman official like Pontius Pilate into prosecuting Jesus for claiming to be king of the jews.

As many have remarked Pontius Pilate was hesitant and reluctant to follow through on this. He didn't take it seriously and tried to give Jesus a way out of it. Pilate knew it was a crooked agenda.
The money changers were Jews and if Pilate had in mind to let Jesus off, how does that make it a Roman agenda?
In Acts, Peter tells us it was the Jews who were the culprits.
 

FaithWillDo

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I think the 3.5 yrs was foretold in Daniels 70 week prophecy.
This is the best chart I could find breaking this prophecy down.

View attachment 33219
Dear quietthinker,
Yes, I agree with your chart except for how it explains the last 3 1/2 years of the prophecy. That part is not correct.

Not many people understand the last week of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy as referring to Christ. Christ is the one who confirms the covenant and that "confirmation" occurred when Christ was baptized by John the Baptist. This began the last 7 years countdown. In the "midst of the week", Christ was "cutoff" at the cross. This left 3 1/2 years for Christ to complete the goals of Dan 9:24.

The first 69 1/2 weeks were completed under the Old Covenant which is physical and outward. The last 3 1/2 years are being completed under the New Covenant which spiritual and within. This understanding is vital in understanding how Christ completes the last 3 1/2 years of the prophecy.

Under the New Covenant, the last 3 1/2 years are completed individually within a person. When a person receives the Early Rain (Holy Spirit of Promise, the down payment, Eph 1:13-14) the last 3 1/2 years begins for that person. It ends for that person when they receive the Latter Rain and are "born again". This 3 1/2 years will be repeated within every person who has ever lived. When the last person in the final age is saved, Dan 9:24 will be fulfilled.

All the verses which mention 3 1/2 years, 1260 days, 42 months or time, times and a half are referring to this last 3 1/2 years of Daniel's prophecy which is being spiritually fulfilled under the New Covenant. Also, there is a great deal of scripture which applies to this time period within a person and it is called "end-time" prophecy. End-time prophecy is not teaching on future world events which happen at the end of the literal age. Those end-time prophecies are teaching on the spiritual events which happen to a individual between them receiving the Early Rain and the Latter Rain.

When the "ends of the ages" come to a person, they are converted and Dan 9:24 is fulfilled for them.

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

Joe
 
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quietthinker

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Dear quietthinker,
Yes, I agree with your chart. Not many people understand Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy in this way but I am certain it is correct. Christ is the one who confirms the covenant and that "confirmation" occurred when Christ was baptized by John the Baptist. This began the last 7 years countdown. In the "midst of the week", Christ was "cutoff" at the cross. This left 3 1/2 years for Christ to complete the goals of Dan 9:24.

The first 69 1/2 weeks were completed under the Old Covenant which is physical and outward. The last 3 1/2 years are being completed under the New Covenant which spiritual and within. This understanding is vital in understanding how Christ completes the last 3 1/2 years of the prophecy.

Under the New Covenant, the last 3 1/2 years are completed individually within a person. When a person receives the Early Rain (Holy Spirit of Promise, the down payment, Eph 1:13-14) the last 3 1/2 years begins for that person. It ends for that person when they receive the Latter Rain and are "born again". This 3 1/2 years will be repeated within every person who has ever lived. When the last person in the final age is saved, Dan 9:24 will be fulfilled.

All the verses which mention 3 1/2 years, 1260 days, 42 months or time, times and a half are referring to this last 3 1/2 years of Daniel's prophecy which is being spiritually fulfilled under the New Covenant. Also, there is a great deal of scripture which applies to this time period within a person and it is called "end-time" prophecy. End-time prophecy is not teaching on future world events which happen at the end of the literal age. Those end-time prophecies are teaching on the spiritual events which happen to a individual between them receiving the Early Rain and the Latter Rain.

When the "ends of the ages" come to a person, they are converted and Dan 9:24 is fulfilled for them.

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

Joe
The angel's reply to Daniel's prayer about his people (the Jews; that is the context) was '70 weeks are determined upon your people'
The last week of the 70 weeks has God's gift delivered to them personally (the Jesus event in person and in message) In the middle of the week they (the Jews) killed him. The last 3.5 yrs the gospel went exclusively to the Jews. At this juncture they stoned Stephan (the final rejection of their Messiah) there on after the Gospel went to the Gentiles.
The Jews had forfeited their special status.....thus was the determination.
 
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FaithWillDo

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The angel's reply to Daniel's prayer about his people (the Jews) was '70 weeks are determined upon your people'
The last week of the 70 weeks has God's gift delivered to them personally (the Jesus event in person and in message) In the middle of the week they (the Jews) killed him. The last 3.5 yrs the gospel went exclusively to the Jews. At this juncture they stoned Stephan (the final rejection of their Messiah) there on after the Gospel went to the Gentiles.
The Jews had forfeited their special status.....thus was the determination.
Dear quietthinker,
I just edited my earlier post to make it clear that I do not agree with the chart's explanation of the last 3 1/2 years.

As for "your people", it is referring to the spiritual descendants of Abraham (by faith, Daniel was one of the faithful). Only the spiritual descendants of Abraham are saved:

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

For Dan 9:24 to be fulfilled, all mankind must be made into the spiritual descendants of Abraham. It is fulfilled in the manner I presented in my earlier post.

Joe
 

quietthinker

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Dear quietthinker,
I just edited my earlier post to make it clear that I do not agree with the chart's explanation of the last 3 1/2 years.

As for "your people", it is referring to the spiritual descendants of Abraham (by faith, Daniel was one of the faithful). Only the spiritual descendants of Abraham are saved:

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

For Dan 9:24 to be fulfilled, all mankind must be made into the spiritual descendants of Abraham. It is fulfilled in the manner I presented in my earlier post.

Joe
Joe, the context is Daniels prayer confessing his sin and the sin of his people. They are captives in Babylon and Daniel realises from reading Jeremiah that their captivity is drawing to a close. It is in answer that Gabriel was sent with his message. We must keep it in context so we don't spin out on some limb.
 

FaithWillDo

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Joe, the context is Daniels prayer confessing his sin and the sin of his people. They are captives in Babylon and Daniel realises from reading Jeremiah that their captivity is drawing to a close. It is in answer that Gabriel was sent with his message. We must keep it in context so we don't spin out on some limb.
Dear quietthinker,
The promises are not made to physical Israel or to earthly Jerusalem. They were made to spiritual Israel and the New Jerusalem which is holy.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The earthly Jerusalem is not holy and neither are the physical descendants of Israel.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Only the "mother of us all" (spiritual Jerusalem) will satisfy the goals of Dan 9:24. The earthly Jerusalem and the physical descendants of Abraham are in bondage to sin and cannot and never will complete the goals of Dan 9:24.

The Seventy Weeks prophecy is a spiritual prophecy and was made to the spiritual descendants of Abraham through Isaac and to Holy Jerusalem.

When the 70 weeks are fulfilled in "due time", all mankind will be saved:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

This is the context in which the prophecy is presented.

Joe
 
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friend of

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Johns gospel seems to start much later on than some of the others . Its more towards the END of CHRISTS earthly ministry .
But this happens right before/after the water to wine, his first miracle.

This does not make sense