When Did Jesus Say He Would Return?

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envolve

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The challenge presented here is are you able to overturn this evidence for when Jesus said He would return?

Jesus said when Israel becomes a nation ("when his branch is yet tender," Matt. 24.32b) and enters Jerusalem ("and putteth forth leaves," v.32c), you can know the season ("ye know that summer is nigh," v.32d) when He returns even the very day ("when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, right at the door," v.33).

Don't let anyone lead you astray and tell you otherwise who will misuse certain verses to misguide you by saying you can't know. Satan says you can't now "right at the door." For example, Matt. 24.36 is referring to the end of the world (v.35) not to when Jesus returns. Verse 35 and 36 are parenthetical to what Jesus is talking about and should be treated as one sentence. Jesus is saying His word does not change. Not even the end of the world will change it.

Certainly, Jesus at the right hand of the Father knows now when the end of the world will take place. And He knew when He would return; that's how we know as He gave us instruction about when He would return. He will return in Person with 10,000 of His saints (Jude 14,15) who will reign 1000 years with a "rod of iron" (Rev. 2.27, 12.5, 19.15) "over the nations" (2.26) after which comes the end of the world. So we can know the day just not the hour (v.42 KJV, DBY) when Jesus returns. However, we can know neither the day nor the hour when the world ends since this time is far off and not associated with signs such as the return of Israel (v.32), signs in the heavens (Rev. 6.12) or the specific 2,520 day period (7 years x 360 days per year) of Daniel's final unit of seven years we are to look out for. Perhaps Jesus will give us some signs we do not yet know during the millennium about when Satan is let loose out of the pit for a short while near the end of the 1000 years to show he will never repent, to judge him and finally send him to Hell.

The two Lunar Tetrads that fell on passover, tabernacles and again on passover and tabernacles in 1949/50 (6th since Christ) when Israel became a nation and 1967/68 (7th since Christ) when Israel entered Jerusalem was the first time since Christ two feast Tetrads occurred so close together as this within 18 years apart, so this is the reference point to what Jesus was talking about when He told His disciples to watch out for very specific and unique cosmic signs (Luke 21.25) to indicate when He returns.

Before the great and terrible day of the Lord (Joel 2.31) would occur three events in specific order (Rev. 6.12):

1) A great earthquake. Haiti 2010 had the second most deaths and the most deaths per capita of all earthquakes on record. Japan 2011 was the greatest in terms of financial loss and the 5th greatest in the world in terms of magnitude.

2) A unique solar eclipse. The rarest type-the Hybrid H3 longdated Nov. 3, 2013-will be the 4th since Christ. Very rare indeed!

3) A unique lunar eclipse. The Total Lunar Tetrad 2014/15 will be the 8th since Christ and won't happen again till 2582/83. So this is it my friends!

Unless you believe in Partial Rapture, you won't be able to perceive Rev. 6.12 correctly occurring right before the Tribulation starts. Suggestion: learn about partial rapture[/URL].

The commencement of the building of the Temple and start of the Tribulation would begin in or right next to the 2014/15 Tetrad because Israel became a nation again during the 6th Tetrad (1949/50) on May 14, 1948 (Ezekiel's prophecy takes us literally and amazingly to May, 1948[/URL]). The armistice treaties were signed in 1949. And Israel marched in and reclaimed Jerusalem on June 7, 1967 during the 7th Tetrad (1967/68). The probability of this is alone is less than 1 in 100,000.

As we all know, the first four feasts refer to Jesus' first coming[/URL]. The last three feasts pertain to His second coming. The first of the three feasts is the Feast of Trumpets which has to do with rapture that comes before the Tribulation starts. It is according to readiness (Matt. 24.40-42), and the last trumpet rapture and resurrection (1 Thess. 4.14-18) is at the start of the 7th trumpet (Rev. 11.15, 15.2-4) according to completion. The second feast, the Day of Atonement refers to all those who are saved and to be resurrected before the 1000 years. And the third feast, Tabernacles points to the millennial kingdom that follows after the Tribulation is over. It is a Sabbath rest after 6000 years where the lamb and the lion lay down together in peace and Jesus reigns with a "rod of iron".

There must be 2,520 days-the final seven year period according to Daniel's prophecy (Dan. 9.24-27)-from Feast of Trumpets (the First Rapture) to Tisha B'Av that commemorates when the 1st and 2nd Temples were destroyed. These two feasts from 2014 to 2021 and 2016 to 2023 don't add up to 2,520 days, but the 2015 to 2022 period does exactly. Obviously, the Third Temple is especially important to Jesus because it will be His residence for 1000 years. It greatly hurt His heart to see the destruction of the 1st and 2nd Temples because of such needless suffering and of course, necessitated a delay in both His first and second coming to be with us in Person.

Hence, the First Rapture to "the throne" (Rev 7.9) according to readiness (3.10, Luke 21.36) is on the Feast of Trumpets, Sept. 14, 2015 before the first trumpet of the Tribulation are blown (8.7ff) that begins the 7 year Tribulation lasting 2,520 days.

The last trumpet rapture and resurrection (1 Cor. 15.23, 1 Thess. 4.14-18, Rev. 14.14-16) is at the start of the 7th trumpet that contains the 7 bowls of wrath and last 24 months. The first four trumpets outline the first half of the 7 year Tribulation. During this time only the earth is hurt. People are not killed in mass yet until the 6th and 7th trumpets (Rev. 9.18). The first four trumpets last 42 months (Rev. 8.13) since the the Great Tribulation's three trumpets (3 woes) are also 42 months, so 2,520 days is 84 months: 42 months plus 42 months. The 5th trumpet is 5 months (9.5,10), and the 6th trumpet lasts 13 months (v.15). That leaves 24 months for the 3rd woe or 7th trumpet. 5 + 13 + 24 = 42 months.

Jesus steps down on the mount of olives (Zech. 14.4, Acts 1.11, Rev. 1.7, 19.11-16) on Tisha B'Av Sunday, Aug. 7 (Av 10), 2022. When Tisha B'Av falls on a Saturday as on Aug. 6 (Av 9), 2022, it is held the day after on Sunday instead.

In conclusion: the likelihood of Jesus returning on Sunday is 1 in 7, and the likelihood of Tisha B'Av held over from Saturday is also 1 in 7. Less than half of all seven year periods from Feast of Trumpets to Tisha B'Av work out to be exactly 2,520 days. Including the probabilities for the Great Earthquake (1 in 2010), the H3 Solar Eclipse (1 in 700), the congruity of the three Tetrads (1 in 100,000), and all of these three items (earthquake, solar eclipse, lunar tetrad) precisely in the required specific order (1 in 6) 2011, 2013 and 2014/15, we come to a probability of 83 trillion to 1. If you think that is just coincidence, think again!
 

veteran

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The challenge presented here is are you able to overturn this evidence for when Jesus said He would return?


Unless you believe in Partial Rapture, you won't be able to perceive Rev. 6.12 correctly occurring right before the Tribulation starts. Suggestion: learn about partial rapture[/URL].


As we all know, the first four feasts refer to Jesus' first coming[/URL]. The last three feasts pertain to His second coming. The first of the three feasts is the Feast of Trumpets which has to do with rapture that comes before the Tribulation starts.


Hence, the First Rapture to "the throne" (Rev 7.9) according to readiness (3.10, Luke 21.36) is on the Feast of Trumpets, Sept. 14, 2015 before the first trumpet of the Tribulation are blown (8.7ff) that begins the 7 year Tribulation lasting 2,520 days.


No such thing as a "partial rapture" in God's Word.

The gathering to Christ of His saints will only occur AFTER the tribulation like Jesus said...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(KJV)


 

Charlie

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Feb 12, 2011
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I agree, the rapture will take place pre-trib and it will be a partial rapture, Luke 20:33-36 and 21.36 make is clear only those who will be 'accounted worthy' will be resurrected and 'obtain that world' or will be raptured and 'stand before the Son of man' in that world.

However, I believe the resurrection/rapture will take place before the first seal is opened and Jer.30:9 makes is clear David will be king in Jerusalem during the 1,000 years.

God Bless you. Charlie.
 

envolve

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Jul 13, 2011
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No such thing as a "partial rapture" in God's Word.

The gathering to Christ of His saints will only occur AFTER the tribulation like Jesus said...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(KJV)


"His elect" in this passage refer to the Jews who will return to Israel because they were scattered during the Great Tribulation.

v.31 This verse is the fulfillment of Matthew 23.39: “Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord”—After the Great Tribulation, the Lord will “gather together His elect”: the “elect” or “chosen” are the Jews who are scattered among the nations. “From the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other”—This does not denote rapture, for here it is the idea of erchomai, not parousia. Here is a gathering together (see Deut. 30.3-5). After the destruction of Jerusalem, the Jews were either killed or captured. They were scattered to the nations. Now, the Lord begins to call them back (see Is. 43.5-7). They shall return from the east, the west, the north, and the south. Some shall even come from the land of Sinim (Is. 49.9-13). Now Sinim means China, and in Hunan province there is a large number of Jews, who, incidentally, take the family name of Tsan. See also Isaiah 49.22-26, 51.11, 56.8, 60.4, 62.10-12, 27.13; Ezekiel 34.13, 37.21, 28.25. “From the four winds”—Wind is moving all the time: the Jews have no settled place in which to live but wander all over the world. This was the condition leading up to 1948 and still to this day in part.

The gathering spoken of here is not the rapture of the church, because (1) parousia has already passed, and rapture is within the scope of parousia; (2) this is a gathering together, and hence it has no connection with parousia; (3) if it were indeed parousia it would be totally foreign to the meaning of the preceding passage; (4) by it pointing to the Jews it agrees with Matthew 23.37; (5) at the trump of God, the Lord would come to meet the saints in the air (this is before Jesus steps down; and (6) the context proves to be concerning the Jews. The whole greater passage is regarding the Jews.

Matthew 24.4-31 speaks to the Jews; Matthew 24.32-25.30 speaks to the church; and Matthew 25.31-46 speaks to the church about the Gentiles. Perhaps an outline of this would be helpful, as follows:

matt24prophecies.gif


I agree, the rapture will take place pre-trib and it will be a partial rapture, Luke 20:33-36 and 21.36 make is clear only those who will be 'accounted worthy' will be resurrected and 'obtain that world' or will be raptured and 'stand before the Son of man' in that world.



Bless you. You did not receive this from man but it was shown to you by the Holy Spirit.


However, I believe the resurrection/rapture will take place before the first seal is opened and Jer.30:9 makes is clear David will be king in Jerusalem during the 1,000 years.

God Bless you. Charlie.

Perhaps I can be of help here. I'm ok with David having a ruling function as one of the 10,000 overcomer saints (Jude 14,15; Rev. 20.4) who returns to reign with Christ with a rod of iron for 1000 years.

But there is no rapture seen prior to Rev. 7.9. The 6 Seals are the past 20 centuries, general in nature. Whereas the Trumpets are the Tribulation loud and everyone hears them.


The 1st Seal is Jesus on the cross for the bow and arrow looks like a cross and the arrow is shot giving Satan a deadly wound by the cross. He is the same rider on the white orse in Rev. 19.11-16. God won't confuse these two. Would Jesus, the Lion of Judah, in Rev. 5 holding the scroll wait 2000 years to begin opening the secretive Seals? I don't think so.

Once you realize the 24 archangels are elders and John is simply being shown in the spirit, you should not think there is a rapture before Rev. 7.9 "before the throne" in 3rd heaven.

We can go over multiply-point proofs of this you know I have ready to unleash.

The lock tumbler is opened so that the the Seals are the past 20 centuries. The 7th Seal opens up the 7 trumpets of the Tribulation, and the 7th trumpet pours out the 7 bowls of wrath. Read this way, and the blessing of Rev. 1.3 will come upon you. The last trumpet lasts 2 years or 24 months. Do you know how I figured that out?

p.s. Lucifer was one of those 24 archangels, and he was replaced by Michael the only archangel mentioned in the Bible.
 
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veteran

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"His elect" in this passage refer to the Jews who will return to Israel because they were scattered during the Great Tribulation.

Christ spoke that to His disciples that were with Him upon the Mount of Olives. It is about the gathering of all His Church. If He meant Jews only, then Apostle Paul's coverage of Christ's coming and our gathering would be ONLY for Gentiles. But that is not so, for Paul was preaching about Christ's coming and the gathering ALSO to believing Jews that were scattered among the Gentiles, which were within the Churches he was given as overseer. What you're pushing is Dispensationalism from Darby in 1800's Britain, a doctrine that was never held by the early Church. Only His Church will be gathered at His coming, which is what those Matt.24 and Mark 13 passages are about. That excludes the unbelieving Jews.


v.31 This verse is the fulfillment of Matthew 23.39: “Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord”—After the Great Tribulation, the Lord will “gather together His elect”: the “elect” or “chosen” are the Jews who are scattered among the nations.

Christ's elect ARE NOT the unbelieving Jews. You should have known that already by the multitude of Scripture from Apostle Paul, like Rom.9 through 11. That they will be brought to their own land by God's promise, that is true. But the unbelievers of Israel won't be reigning with Christ Jesus.


“From the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other”—This does not denote rapture, for here it is the idea of erchomai, not parousia. Here is a gathering together (see Deut. 30.3-5). After the destruction of Jerusalem, the Jews were either killed or captured. They were scattered to the nations. Now, the Lord begins to call them back (see Is. 43.5-7).

The 'harpazo' which Apostle Paul used, translated as "caught up", is EXACTLY what that Scripture denotes. And it's showing that will only occur AFTER the tribulation Christ mentioned. That applies to both believing Israel and believing Gentiles, as one body, Christ's Church.


They shall return from the east, the west, the north, and the south. Some shall even come from the land of Sinim (Is. 49.9-13). Now Sinim means China, and in Hunan province there is a large number of Jews, who, incidentally, take the family name of Tsan. See also Isaiah 49.22-26, 51.11, 56.8, 60.4, 62.10-12, 27.13; Ezekiel 34.13, 37.21, 28.25. “From the four winds”—Wind is moving all the time: the Jews have no settled place in which to live but wander all over the world. This was the condition leading up to 1948 and still to this day in part.


You're wrongly interpreting the restoration of unbelieving Israel back to the land.

Isa 49:22-23
22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up Mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up My standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for Me.
(KJV)

Those are ONLY the ones who 'wait' for Christ's coming, of both believing Israel and believing Gentiles. The unbelieving Jews are waiting for Messiah indeed, but not for Jesus The Christ. The unbelieving are excluded from that return, including the unbelieving Jews.

The "four winds" symbol is about the end of this world, and involves the "caught up" (harpazo) event Apostle Paul taught that will occur on the "last trump" of 1 Cor.15. In 1 Thess.4:16, that "last trump" is called the "trump of God", which is when Christ's Church is gathered on the last day of this world at the 7th Trumpet, which begins "the day of The Lord".


The gathering spoken of here is not the rapture of the church, because (1)
parousia has already passed, and rapture is within the scope of parousia; (2) this is a gathering together, and hence it has no connection with parousia; (3) if it were indeed parousia it would be totally foreign to the meaning of the preceding passage; (4) by it pointing to the Jews it agrees with Matthew 23.37; (5) at the trump of God, the Lord would come to meet the saints in the air (this is before Jesus steps down; and (6) the context proves to be concerning the Jews. The whole greater passage is regarding the Jews.


The Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture, and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture, IS about the 'harpazo' event Apostle Paul spoke of when Christ returns to gather His Church. And it is AFTER that great tribulation which Christ mentioned. The parousia (second coming of Christ) MOST DEFINITELY HAS NOT... come to pass yet today. Nor has it even begun yet!

You're preaching the same falseness as Richard Burger, dan p, and others here, which is Hyper-Dispensationalism. Apostle Paul disagrees with you, because even he preached in 2 Thess.2 that Christ does not gather His Church until the great falling away and man of sin (Antichrist) happen first. For that Antichrist to do his thing per that 2 Thess.2 Scripture, it means Christ's Church is STILL on earth DURING the tribulation. The word rapture is not even used by Paul there. He uses Greek episunagoge along with parousia in this same verse...

II Th 2:1
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together (episunagoge) unto him,
(KJV)


Mark 13:27
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together (episunago) His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(KJV)

SAME 'gathering' Message in both Scriptures, SAME event in BOTH Scripture examples. Your whole theory just took an infinite dump!


 

revturmoil

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"His elect" in this passage refer to the Jews who will return to Israel because
they were scattered during the Great Tribulation.

If that were true, Jesus would probably have used this word.;

1445. Hebraios heb-rah'-yos from 1443; a Hebræan (i.e. Hebrew) or Jew:--Hebrew.

But the word 'elect' in Mathew 24 is 'Eklektos' which means Christians!

http://www.bluelette...ngs=G1588&t=KJV
1) picked out, chosen

a) chosen by God,

1) to obtain salvation through Christ

a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God

2) the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable

3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians


Don't fall for the line that the elect are Jews.
 

envolve

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Christ spoke that to His disciples that were with Him upon the Mount of Olives. It is about the gathering of all His Church. If He meant Jews only, then Apostle Paul's coverage of Christ's coming and our gathering would be ONLY for Gentiles. But that is not so, for Paul was preaching about Christ's coming and the gathering ALSO to believing Jews that were scattered among the Gentiles, which were within the Churches he was given as overseer. What you're pushing is Dispensationalism from Darby in 1800's Britain, a doctrine that was never held by the early Church. Only His Church will be gathered at His coming, which is what those Matt.24 and Mark 13 passages are about. That excludes the unbelieving Jews.


Matthew 24.4-31 speaks to the Jews; Matthew 24.32-25.30 speaks to the church; and Matthew 25.31-46 speaks to the church about the Gentiles

Chiliasm was in the first century.


Christ's elect ARE NOT the unbelieving Jews. You should have known that already by the multitude of Scripture from Apostle Paul, like Rom.9 through 11. That they will be brought to their own land by God's promise, that is true. But the unbelievers of Israel won't be reigning with Christ Jesus.

There two groups of elect.

The 'harpazo' which Apostle Paul used, translated as "caught up", is EXACTLY what that Scripture denotes. And it's showing that will only occur AFTER the tribulation Christ mentioned. That applies to both believing Israel and believing Gentiles, as one body, Christ's Church.

The gathering is not the same as harpazo.




You're wrongly interpreting the restoration of unbelieving Israel back to the land.

Isa 49:22-23
22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up Mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up My standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for Me.
(KJV)

How does this verse support your view?


Those are ONLY the ones who 'wait' for Christ's coming, of both believing Israel and believing Gentiles. The unbelieving Jews are waiting for Messiah indeed, but not for Jesus The Christ. The unbelieving are excluded from that return, including the unbelieving Jews.

The "four winds" symbol is about the end of this world, and involves the "caught up" (harpazo) event Apostle Paul taught that will occur on the "last trump" of 1 Cor.15. In 1 Thess.4:16, that "last trump" is called the "trump of God", which is when Christ's Church is gathered on the last day of this world at the 7th Trumpet, which begins "the day of The Lord".

I am not saying unsaved Jews are waiting for His coming, but Israel as a nation is promised to be the center of all nations. Israel is a nation of Jews and a remnant of believing Jews will accept the Lord when He comes.

In point of fact Israel is a nation again and growing stronger by the day.

There is no harpazo in in Matt. 24.31.

The start of the 7th trumpet not the end of the 7th trumpet is when the general rapture takes place. Rev. 11.15, 15.2-4.

24 months of bowls then Jesus steps down.



The Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture, and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture, IS about the 'harpazo' event Apostle Paul spoke of when Christ returns to gather His Church. And it is AFTER that great tribulation which Christ mentioned. The parousia (second coming of Christ) MOST DEFINITELY HAS NOT... come to pass yet today. Nor has it even begun yet!

Definitely not. Parousia of Christ extends for 7 years.

You're preaching the same falseness as Richard Burger, dan p, and others here, which is Hyper-Dispensationalism. Apostle Paul disagrees with you, because even he preached in 2 Thess.2 that Christ does not gather His Church until the great falling away and man of sin (Antichrist) happen first. For that Antichrist to do his thing per that 2 Thess.2 Scripture, it means Christ's Church is STILL on earth DURING the tribulation. The word rapture is not even used by Paul there. He uses Greek episunagoge along with parousia in this same verse...

There is nothing hyper about it. The Church is on the earth during the Tribulation.

The falling away really gets going around the middle of the Tribulation at the start of the 5th trumpet which lasts for 5 months. Then the 6th trumpet is 13 months. It as the end of the 6th and start of the 7th that the general rapture and resurrection takes place; hence, you see saints in 3rd heaven at Rev. 11.15 and since Rev. 15 gives details about Rev. 11, 15.2-4 shows those saints in third heaven again before the bowls of wrath are poured (Rev. 16) which lasts 24 months.

So the falling away begins before the general rapture and resurrection. But since 1 Thess. 4.14-18 says those alive and left are taken up with those asleep, we should ask why this unnecessary repetition, for obviously those alive are left. IT's because if you were not raptured at the first rapture, you would have been left to pass through the Tribulation. Hence, there was a first rapture according to readiness for those who keep the word of His patience (Rev. 3.10) were watchful (Matt. 24.40-42) and prayerful (Luke 21.36) to escape the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world. So you see saints in heaven at Rev. 7.9 "before the throne" before any of the trumpets of the Tribulation (8.7ff) are blown.

II Th 2:1
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together (episunagoge) unto him,
(KJV)

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!" (Matt. 24.37)

The gathering spoken of in Matt. 24.31 is not the rapture of the church, because (1) parousia has already passed, and rapture is within the scope of parousia; (2) this is a gathering together, and hence it has no connection with parousia; (3) if it were indeed parousia it would be totally foreign to the meaning of the preceding passage; (4) by it pointing to the Jews it agrees with Matthew 23.37; (5) at the trump of God, the Lord would come to the air; and (6) the context proves to be concerning the Jews.

v.31 This verse is the fulfillment of Matthew 23.39 to the Jews: “Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord”—After the Great Tribulation, the Lord will “gather together His elect”: the “elect” or “chosen” are the Jews who are scattered among the nations. “From the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other”—This does not denote rapture, for here it is the idea of erchomai, not parousia. Here is a gathering together (see Deut. 30.3-5). After the destruction of Jerusalem, the Jews were either killed or captured. They were scattered to the nations. Now, the Lord begins to call them back (see Is. 43.5-7). They shall return from the east, the west, the north, and the south. Some shall even come from the land of Sinim (Is. 49.9-13). Now Sinim means China, and in Hunan province there is a large number of Jews, who, incidentally, take the family name of Tsan. See also Isaiah 49.22-26, 51.11, 56.8, 60.4, 62.10-12, 27.13; Ezekiel 34.13, 37.21, 28.25. “From the four winds”—Wind is moving all the time: the Jews have no settled place in which to live but wander all over the world.

As to the first question (“When shall these things be?”), what are the “these things”? Since the phrase “these things” is cast in the plural number, there must be other matters in view besides the destruction of the holy temple. By looking into the background given in Matthew 23 (for we need again to remember that the division of the Bible into chapters and verses is not inspired), we will discern six things: (a) that the children of Israel are to be filled up with the sinful measure of their fathers (23.32); (B) that the Lord will send to them prophets and wise men and scribes (23.34), noticing as we do that the prophets spoken of here are not those of the Old Testament period since our Lord says “some of them shall ye kill and crucify” whereas in the Old Testament time there was no crucifixion; © that the Lord will avenge himself on the wicked children of Israel (23.35-36); (d) that the holy temple shall be destroyed (24.2); (e) that the house of Israel will look forward to the coming of the Lord and say, “Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord” (23.39); and (f) that the Lord will gather the children of Israel as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings (23.37).

Since the disciples ask about these six things, the answers our Lord gives must likewise include all six of them. This we can see in chapter 24: (a) the children of Israel will be filled with the iniquity of their fathers (24.10-12); (B) the “you” in 24.9 are those who are sent by the Lord; © as a result of what the children of Israel will do to the prophets, the Lord will avenge himself on them with tribulation (24.21-22); (d) the holy temple will be defiled and destroyed as spoken of by Daniel (24.15); (e) the children of Israel shall expect the coming of the Lord (24.30)—for note that the phrase “all the tribes of the earth” refers to the twelve tribes of Israel; and (f) the Lord shall gather together His elect (24.31).



Mark 13:27
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together (episunago) His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(KJV)

SAME 'gathering' Message in both Scriptures, SAME event in BOTH Scripture examples. Your whole theory just took an infinite dump!

The gathering in 2 Thess. is definitely rapture. The gathering in Matt. 24.31 is in keeping with speaking to what happens to Israel. Then the Church is addressed from Matt. 24.32-Matt. 25.30.




If that were true, Jesus would probably have used this word.;

1445. Hebraios heb-rah'-yos from 1443; a Hebræan (i.e. Hebrew) or Jew:--Hebrew.

But the word 'elect' in Mathew 24 is 'Eklektos' which means Christians!

http://www.bluelette...ngs=G1588&t=KJV
1) picked out, chosen

a) chosen by God,

1) to obtain salvation through Christ

a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God

2) the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable

3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians


Don't fall for the line that the elect are Jews.

The emphasis is just select ones. People are not even called Christians yet, not till Antioch in Acts.

Since the first question Jesus answers regarding the returning Jews, this elect is the returning Jews after the parousia.

How you treat our little brother reveals much about you.
 

Charlie

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But there is no rapture seen prior to Rev. 7.9. The 6 Seals are the past 20 centuries, general in nature. Whereas the Trumpets are the Tribulation loud and everyone hears them.

The 1st Seal is Jesus on the cross for the bow and arrow looks like a cross and the arrow is shot giving Satan a deadly wound by the cross. He is the same rider on the white horse in Rev. 19.11-16. God won't confuse these two. Would Jesus, the Lion of Judah, in Rev. 5 holding the scroll wait 2000 years to begin opening the secretive Seals? I don't think so.

Once you realize the 24 archangels are elders and John is simply being shown in the spirit, you should not think there is a rapture before Rev. 7.9 "before the throne" in 3rd heaven.

We can go over multiply-point proofs of this you know I have ready to unleash.

The lock tumbler is opened so that the the Seals are the past 20 centuries. The 7th Seal opens up the 7 trumpets of the Tribulation, and the 7th trumpet pours out the 7 bowls of wrath. Read this way, and the blessing of Rev. 1.3 will come upon you. The last trumpet lasts 2 years or 24 months. Do you know how I figured that out?
[/quote|

Charlie -- I do not agree and would like to know how you can place the last 3 seals, in particular, prior to the rapture.

God Bless you. Charlie.
 

envolve

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Charlie -- I do not agree and would like to know how you can place the last 3 seals, in particular, prior to the rapture.

God Bless you. Charlie.
Rev. 2 & 3 past 20 centuries for the Church (7 church periods)

Rev. 4 picture of the universe from heaven (24 archangels)

Rev. 5 recounts the cross, opening seals immediately (not waiting 2000 years)

Seal 1 - Jesus on the cross

Seal 2-4 past 20 centuries.

5th Seal - martyred given white robes indicating their reward for rapture at the first rapture (7.9).

6th Seal events just before the Tribulation starts.

7th Seal opens up the 7 trumpets of the Tribulation.

Rev. 8 first half of Trib with 4 trumpets, 3 to go in the 2nd half from Rev. 9 to 11.

Rev 7 to 11 major points of the Tribulation (Rev. 12 concurrent with Rev. 7)

Rev. 12 to 19 given the details of the major points like Gen. 2 gives the details of GEn. 1.

Rev. 20 millenial reign

Rev. 21 eternity future after the 1000 year reign.

Rev. 22 Last warning to get ge the blessing of Rev. 1.3 by reading correctly.
 

revturmoil

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It's incredible the long list of fabrications and resulting contradictions in pretribulationism.


There two groups of elect.


Tell me about these two groups.

The group mentioned in Mt 24:31 is the same word used in the following verses. And you're telling me these are Jews?

Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

John 13:18, 15:16 Acts 15:22, 15:25

Romans 8:33, 16:13

1 Corinthians 1:27-28

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Colossians 3:12 ¶Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

James 2:5

2 Timothy 2:10

Titus 1:1

1 Peter 1:2, 2:9, 5:13

Revelation 17:14

Christ would have used this word instead of 'eklektos' if He had meant Jews.

1445. Hebraios heb-rah'-yos from 1443; a Hebræan (i.e. Hebrew) or Jew:--Hebrew.

To translate the word 'eklektos' as Jews is a baseless argument, not found in scripture, a fabrication, (changing the true meaning of God's Word.) designed to support a false teaching.


You said about the word 'eklektos'...,

______________________________________________________________________________
The emphasis is just select ones. People are not even called Christians yet, not till Antioch in Acts.

Since the first question Jesus answers regarding the returning Jews, this elect is the returning Jews after the parousia.

How you treat our little brother reveals much about you.
_______________________________________________________________________________________

They are called Christians because the word eklektos means christians and in verse 29 Jesus is talking about after the tribulation.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days...


You said...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The gathering is not the same as harpazo.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++


It's not?

Then why are all three mentioned right here in this passage?


1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


2 Thessalonians 2:1 ¶Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.


Here we have a gathering at the parousia and the day of Christ. In every verse that I know of this happens after the tribulation.

Envolve,

Can you post one verse of scripture that declares that Jesus Christ returns before the tribulation? There are several that declare His return as well as a gathering and harpazo after the trib. But where is there a verse that declares His return befor the tribulation. I would like to see one!

You have latched onto the most widely held false teaching of the church and the scriptural evidence just doesn't seem to matter to those obsessed with pre-tribulationism.
 

envolve

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Context, context, context.

Jesus doesn't step down before the end of the Tribulation. What made you think I thought that?

There is a failure in your thinking distinguish between rapture and the appearing of the Lord. There is a difference between Christ coming for the saints and Christ coming with the saints. That which Enoch prophesied, as recorded in Jude, points to the coming of the Lord, "with his holy myriads” (see Jude 14-15 mg.) when His feet step down on the Mount of Olives. So does the prophecy which is given in Revelation: “Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen” (1.7). In taking the historical view, the your view of interpretation regards that part of Revelation up to chapter 17 as having already been fulfilled, with only the part from chapter 17 onward waiting to be fulfilled. (This is exactly opposite to the futuristic view taken by the first school of interpretation which deems only chapters 1-3, 4, 5, and most of Rev. 6 as having already been fulfilled, with the rest remaining to be so). If the book of Revelation only records primarily things of the past, then how can the average child of God ever understand it? It would require doctors of philosophy and learned historians to comprehend it! Furthermore, it would no longer be revelation either!

The Jews are elect. Elect for what? To be the center of all nations. Don't impose your word on the text. The word you chose leaves out the fact that they are elect as a nation that will be the center of all nations and a remnant of believing Jews.Again, as to the first question (“When shall these things be?”), what are the “these things”? Since the phrase “these things” is cast in the plural number, there must be other matters in view besides the destruction of the holy temple. By looking into the background given in Matthew 23 (for we need again to remember that the division of the Bible into chapters and verses is not inspired), we will discern six things: (a) that the children of Israel are to be filled up with the sinful measure of their fathers (23.32); (B) that the Lord will send to them prophets and wise men and scribes (23.34), noticing as we do that the prophets spoken of here are not those of the Old Testament period since our Lord says “some of them shall ye kill and crucify” whereas in the Old Testament time there was no crucifixion; © that the Lord will avenge himself on the wicked children of Israel (23.35-36); (d) that the holy temple shall be destroyed (24.2); (e) that the house of Israel will look forward to the coming of the Lord and say, “Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord” (23.39); and (f) that the Lord will gather the children of Israel as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings (23.37).

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [er wings, and ye would not!" (Matt. 23.37).

Since the disciples ask about these six things, the answers our Lord gives must likewise include all six of them. This we can see in chapter 24: (a) the children of Israel will be filled with the iniquity of their fathers (24.10-12); (B) the “you” in 24.9 are those who are sent by the Lord; © as a result of what the children of Israel will do to the prophets, the Lord will avenge himself on them with tribulation (24.21-22); (d) the holy temple will be defiled and destroyed as spoken of by Daniel (24.15); (e) the children of Israel shall expect the coming of the Lord (24.30)—for note that the phrase “all the tribes of the earth” refers to the twelve tribes of Israel; and (f) the Lord shall gather together His elect (24.31).
 

envolve

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[font="Verdana][size="2"]Chiliasm was the teaching in the first century and this is the word the early church fathers used; it's just another word for premillennialism.

[/size][/font][font="Verdana][size="2"]If "thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Rev. 3.10.

This hour of trial is the Tribulation which comes upon the whole world. A Christian can only escape it if he is raptured.

God can't promise he won't be martyred if he enters the Tribulation, so this referring to the first rapture "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) before the trumpets of the Tribulation commence (8.7ff).


[/size][/font]

[font="Verdana][size="2"]"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21.36).

All these things that come to pass is the Tribulation. To stand before the Son of Man is in 3rd heaven "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9).

To be accounted worthy to escape the Tribulation you would need to be prayerful.

But God can't promise you won't be martyred when you enter the Tribulation, so this promise to escape the Tribulation can only be assured if you are raptured for keeping the word of His patience.
[/size][/font]

[font="Verdana][size="2"]"Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come" (Matt. 24.40,42).

Who is to watch? The Christian since it speaks of "your Lord". What happens if you watch or don't watch?

If you watch will you be taken or will you be left?

The Lord comes to take and not leave. A thief in the night comes to steal the best first.

So if you are watchful you will be taken at the first rapture before the Tribulation starts.

Death is no blessing so to be left and die is not good. To be taken is better than being martyred in the Tribulation.
[/size][/font]

[font="Verdana][size="2"]I find the Book of Revelation the easiest book of the Bible to read and understand. I understand every line.

Rev. 6.12 is Japan 2011, H3 Lunar eclipse Nov. 3, 2013, and Total Lunar Tetrad 2014/15. Then follows the first rapture "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) before the Trib on feast of trumpets Sept. 14,2015.

There are exactly 7 x 360 days from Feast of Trumpets Sept, 14, 2015 to Tisha B'Av, Aug. 7, 2022.

Fits perfectly.

The next Tetrad is not till 2582/83.

The Terad in 1949/50 when ISrael became a nation was the 6th since Christ.
The Tetrad in 1967/68 was the 7th since Christ.
These were 18 years apart.

It is the first time they were 18 years apart. Miracle!

There was only one century since Christ two tetrads occurred in a single century so 1/19 chance there would be 2 feast tetrads in the 20th century.

The probability one of them would fall on 1949/50 was 2/100. The chance that the othe would fall on 1967/68 is 1/99.

1/99 x 2/50 x 1/19 ~ 1 in 100,000 chance.

Amazing! Then the next Etrad is within a generation of when Israel became a nation.

A person is expected to live 70 to 80 years according to Ps. 90.10.

The days of our years [are] threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength [they be] fourscore years, yet [is] their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

70 years from 1948 is 2018. 80 years is 2028.

The Tribulation is Sept. 14, 2015 to Aug. 7, 2022.
[/size][/font]
 

veteran

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The gathering is not the same as harpazo.



Because Apostle Paul shows the idea of parousia and episunago in 2 Thessalonians 2 about Christ's coming and the gathering of His saints, you're whole theory about Matt.24 and Mark 13 not being about the harpazo event has been struck down.
 

revturmoil

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There is a failure in your thinking distinguish between rapture and the appearing of the Lord. There is a
difference between Christ coming for the saints and Christ
coming with the saints.

You said, "context did you not?

This is a failure on your part to recognize a major fabrication and blasphemous altering of the Word of God. It's a failure on your part to recognize the simplicity of God's Word as the truth. And a failure to come out of denial. You have fallen for a big lie!

Pretribulationist had to "ADD" another return of Christ because if they didn't it exposes a major contradiction. Even though the harpazo, the parousia, and the Day of the Lord are all mentioned in one passage, they had to change the timing and meaning of these words to avoid the contradictions of pre-tribulationism.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the COMING of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the DAY OF THE LORD so cometh as a thief in the night.


The Jews are elect. Elect for what? To be the center of all nations. Don't
impose your word on the text.


Didn't you say,"Context, context, context."

Then you're trying to say I'm imposing "MY WORD" on the text?

You need to go back to school and get out of denial at the same time. The word ELECT is the same word as CHOSEN. That word is continually used in the context of denoting Christians throughout the New Testament. In every verse I quoted the word 'eklektos' implies Christians. NOT JEWS! This is an unexplained hermeneutical blunder pre-tribulationst have no answer for. I'm not imposing anything. I'm all for exposing the pre-tribulationist schemes of fabrication and contradiction.

Here's the link.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1588&t=KJV


If you have a problem with the interpretation you may want to contact Strong's, Thayers's, and BLB. Your argument is with them and all the other dictionaries and word study resources.

Why would I trust that a pre-tribulationist can get anything right when they don't have a sensible common sense method of conducting a word study. That's a plus for pre-tribulationist! They fall for blunder after blunder and fabrication after fabrication.

The same word is used to imply Christian's throughout the NT. The only people who need to change it's meaning are pre-tribulationist in denial of the truth.
 

envolve

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Because Apostle Paul shows the idea of parousia and episunago in 2 Thessalonians 2 about Christ's coming and the gathering of His saints, you're whole theory about Matt.24 and Mark 13 not being about the harpazo event has been struck down.

The gathering spoken of here is not the rapture of the church, because (1) parousia has already passed, and rapture is within the scope of parousia; (2) this is a gathering together, and hence it has no connection with parousia; (3) if it were indeed parousia it would be totally foreign to the meaning of the preceding passage; (4) by it pointing to the Jews it agrees with Matthew 23.37; (5) at the trump of God, the Lord would come to the air; and (6) the context proves to be concerning the Jews. (many Jewish references in Matt. 24.4-31 we can go over if you like unlike for Matt. 24.32-25.30 which is to the Church).

If what you say were true that "gathering" can only mean the rapture I would concede your point, but how precious are the words of 2 Thess. 2.1, "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him."

The order given is first "by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" followed "by our gathering together with him." The Lord does not come and then meets the saints in the air for that is backwards. First the Lord meets the overcomers at the throne (Rev. 7.9) before the Tribulation starts (8.7ff) then He comes on the clouds and then through the clouds through the Tribulation parousia period then He meets the saints in the air at the last trumpet (1 Thess. 4.14-18, 1 Cor. 15.23, Rev. 11.15, 15.2-4) before the 7th trumpet that pours out the 7 bowls of wrath as we are not appointed unto wrath. And then the gathering. There is first the coming for His saints and then with His saints then finally the gathering and assembly. These do not all happen at the same moment.

Do you see it is most amazing how clear God's word is! So the gathering here is upon the the Lord Jesus returning with 10,000 of His saints (Jude 14,15). Both the first rapture and 7th trumpet rapture have already taken place. And thus it is used in the same context as Matt. 24.31 except that 2 Thess. 1 is referring to the gathering of the saints, not specifically the Jews though it can be said the whole world is gathered with Christ when He steps down on the mount of olives. For 30 days after that 1260th day (the day Jesus steps down) take us to the 1290th day. Those 30 days are used to judge the nations. 45 days more to the1335th day Jesus sets up Israel as a the center of all nations, From thenceforth a total gathering can said to have occurred for the millennial kingdom, the next dispensation, which is the dispensation or time of recompense. Rewards are given to reign.

Matt24circles.gif


Look further at 2 Peter 3.4, where the question raised is: “Where is the promise of his parousia?”

Then 1 Thessalonians speaks (1) of a standing before the Lord Jesus Christ at His parousia (2.19), (2) of the time of the parousia of the Lord with all His saints (3.13), (3) of how we shall all be caught up and meet the Lord in the air at His parousia (4.15-17), and (4) of having our spirit and soul and body preserved entire without blame at the parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ (5.23).

What are the things which transpire during the time of parousia? All who are Christ’s shall be resurrected (1 Cor. 15.23). The parousia of the Lord is where the believers will gather together with Him (2 Thess. 2.1). In His parousia, He will deal with the Antichrist (2 Thess. 2.8). The lawless one will also have his own parousia (2 Thess. 2.9). If we abide in Christ we may have boldness and not be ashamed before Him at His parousia (1 John 2.28).

We deduce from these Scripture passages that parousia includes the throne and the air. Time-wise, it begins with the first rapture and ends with the appearing of Christ and His saints on earth. Thus parousia actually stands between the church and the kingdom. It comprises (1) the first rapture to the throne, (2) tribulation and the Great Tribulation, (3) the Lord descending to the air, (4) the general rapture of believers to the air, and (5) the appearing of Christ with His saints on earth. Perhaps the following diagram and the explanatory text which follows can make it clearer.

During parousia there are three periods which coincide with three locations: (see large center circle above): At the beginning of parousia (1) the overcoming believers are raptured to the throne (Matt. 24.37, 40-41). After some time (2a) the Lord descends from heaven to the air (1 Thess. 4.15-17, 1 Cor. 15.23)—(please remember that the throne is presently in heaven—Rev. 4.1-2). Meanwhile (2b) the dead in Christ shall rise, and those believers who are alive and left on the earth from the previous rapture (to the throne) shall, together with the risen dead in Christ, be caught up to the air. There they shall experience parousia with the Lord. And finally, parousia ends (3) with the appearing of the Lord with His saints from the air to the earth. He will bring to nought the Antichrist by the exploded glory of His parousia (2 Thess. 2.8-9).

There is a failure in your school of thinking to distinguish between rapture and the appearing of the Lord. There is a difference between Christ coming for the saints and Christ coming with the saints. That which Enoch prophesied, as recorded in Jude, points to the coming of the Lord, "with his holy myriads” (see Jude 14-15 mg.) when His feet step down on the Mount of Olives. So does the prophecy which is given in Revelation: “Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen” (1.7). In taking the historical view, the second school of interpretation regards that part of Revelation up to chapter 17 as having already been fulfilled, with only the part from chapter 17 onward waiting to be fulfilled. (This is exactly opposite to the futuristic view taken by the first school of interpretation which deems only chapters 1-3 as having already been fulfilled, with the rest remaining to be so). If the book of Revelation only records primarily things of the past, then how can the average child of God ever understand it? It would require doctors of philosophy and learned historians to comprehend it! Furthermore, it would no longer be revelation either!

I preserved our discussion here.


 

envolve

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Didn't you say,"Context, context, context."

Then you're trying to say I'm imposing "MY WORD" on the text?

You need to go back to school and get out of denial at the same time. The word ELECT is the same word as CHOSEN. That word is continually used in the context of denoting Christians throughout the New Testament. In every verse I quoted the word 'eklektos' implies Christians. NOT JEWS! This is an unexplained hermeneutical blunder pre-tribulationst have no answer for. I'm not imposing anything. I'm all for exposing the pre-tribulationist schemes of fabrication and contradiction.

Here's the link.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1588&t=KJV

Of course the word elect is the same word as chosen. It is continually used to denote the Jews as well as Christians in different contexts. God always treats three groups: Jews as a nation, Church, Gentile nations. The Jews are elect because God is bringing back Israel as a nation. Sometimes eklektos other times to the Church.

This is explained. Since Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36, and Rev. 3.10 are conditional states to be taken before the hour of trial, this is the first rapture according to readiness before the Tribulation. You leave this matter untouched.

If you have a problem with the interpretation you may want to contact Strong's, Thayers's, and BLB. Your argument is with them and all the other dictionaries and word study resources.

Why would I trust that a pre-tribulationist can get anything right when they don't have a sensible common sense method of conducting a word study. That's a plus for pre-tribulationist! They fall for blunder after blunder and fabrication after fabrication.

The same word is used to imply Christian's throughout the NT. The only people who need to change it's meaning are pre-tribulationist in denial of the truth.
Strong's, Thayer's and BLB don't say this word for chosen or elect is always referring to Christians. They are not even called Christians yet not till Antioch in Acts.

The blunder you face are several.

Were the entire body of believers to be raptured after the Tribulation, there would again be no need for us to watch and wait and be prepared. Knowing that the Lord would not come before the end of the three and a half year's period, we could live evilly up to three years five months and twenty-nine days. Yet such a concept violates the very principle of the Scriptures.B. Were all of us believers to be raptured after the Great Tribulation, then our waiting would not be a waiting for Christ but for the Antichrist, since the latter must come first.

C. The church would lose her hope - “Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2.13) - for included in this hope is the blessing of escaping the Tribulation.

D. The second school of interpretation does not accept the idea of a secret rapture; yet its followers forget the word, “Behold, I come as a thief” (Rev. 16.15). A thief comes secretly, is never preceded by a band, and always steals the best.

E. This second school views the twelve disciples as being purely Christians in direct contrast with the view of the first school which considers these twelve as being merely Jews. As a matter of fact, however, these twelve disciples are Christians as well as representatives of the Jewish remnant. For example, in Matthew 10.5-6 and 23.3 we see that all have a Jewish background, a fact which is thus inapplicable to Christians.

Since you take this hope away from yourself, obviously you will not be included in the first rapture, but when it happens, according to the prophecy with odds 83 trillion to 1, it sounds like you will accuse the brethren day and night (Rev. 12.10) of being a fake rapture after millions have vanished.

I would not want to be in your shoes when that happens.






 

revturmoil

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Of course the word elect is the same word as chosen. It is continually used to
denote the Jews as well as Christians in different contexts. God always treats
three groups: Jews as a nation, Church, Gentile nations. The Jews are elect
because God is bringing back Israel as a nation. Sometimes eklektos other times
to the Church.

This is explained. Since Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36,
and Rev. 3.10 are conditional states to be taken before the hour of trial, this
is the first rapture according to readiness before the Tribulation. You leave
this matter untouched.



Strong's, Thayer's and BLB don't say this word for chosen or elect is always
referring to Christians. They are not even called Christians yet not till
Antioch in Acts.



Your calculations are impressive but useless.

Strong's and Thayer's both make no mention of Jews and neither do any of the verses I quoted where 'eklektos' is used.

I already confronted this blunder of yours. Jesus is quoted as saying in verse Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days,...

So this is a prophecy where Jesus is clearly refering to the time period "immediatly after the tribulation of those days. So don't give me the line that "they are not even called Christians yet not till Antioch in Acts. Like I said...Go back to school and get out of denial!


Look at this definition. Jews aren't implied anywhere. I've quoted several verses that prove the word 'eklektos' refers to all Christian's. The word doesn't denote the Jewish race of people.


Quote the other verses where you say 'eklektos' implies Jews! I really want to see them!

1) picked out, chosen

a) chosen by God,

1) to obtain salvation through Christ

a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God

2) the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable

3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians


30 AND THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.




You said,


_______________________________________________________________

Since you take this hope away from yourself, obviously you will not be included in the first rapture, but when it happens, according to the prophecy with odds 83 trillion to 1, it sounds like you will accuse the brethren day and night (Rev. 12.10) of being a fake rapture after millions have vanished.

I would not want to be in your shoes when that happens.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I take no hope away from myself. You have faith in a false hope. One that you will be scoffed at about.

2 Peter 3:3 ¶Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
 

envolve

New Member
Jul 13, 2011
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Your calculations are impressive but useless.

Strong's and Thayer's both make no mention of Jews and neither do any of the verses I quoted where 'eklektos' is used.

I already confronted this blunder of yours. Jesus is quoted as saying in verse Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days,...

Thank you for your unimpressive compliment. They don't have to make mention of the Jews, for the word is just elect or chosen. God elects and chooses different groups for different things. Let us not hogtie the Scriptures into your petty rules but let the word of God breathe life into your spirit.

I responded to all your alleged blunders so it is up to you to deal with those replies or not.

After the Tribulation of those days is after parousia. The Jews can return because the war is over. Whereas the saints are ratpured at various points before. You do not include yourself with those saints, that is your choice. Before Rev. 19 we see saints in 3rd heaven in Rev. 7, 11 and 15. Without knowing anything else it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize to be in heaven before Jesus returns requires a rapture before Jesus returns.

So this is a prophecy where Jesus is clearly refering to the time period
"immediatly after the tribulation of those days. So don't give me the
line that "they are not even called Christians yet not till Antioch in
Acts. Like I said...Go back to school and get out of denial!

They are not even called Christians yet when you require all elect all be Christians. Immiediately after the Tribulation of those days the Jews can gather not before. The same is true of Christians. Rev. 7.1-8 are Jews. 144,000. Rev. 14.1-5 are Christians. Also 144,000. God has in view both groups, but elects them in different ways for different purposes. This is a wonderful blessing you have seeing it explained this way.

Look at this definition. Jews aren't implied anywhere. I've quoted several verses that prove the word 'eklektos' refers to all Christian's. The word doesn't denote the Jewish race of people.

In context.

A. 24.1-31 concerns the Jews, since everything here is literallyinterpreted; but 24.32-25.46 concerns the church since everything there is spirituallyinterpreted. For example, “winter” in verse 20 is literal since it is in actual fact a difficult thing to flee in the winter (“sabbath” too is literal); “summer” in verse 32, however, is to be spiritually interpreted since it points to the soon coming of the kingdom (while the “fig tree” refers to the nation of Israel). Or as another example, in verse 26 “the inner chambers” must be interpreted literally, whereas in verse 43 “the house” is to be interpreted spiritually. Hence what concerns the Jews is to be literally interpreted; but what concerns the church is to be spiritually interpreted (see Matt. 13.11-13).

B. The part before24.31 is full of Jewish background, as is made clear by the usage of such terms as “the holy place” (v.15), “in Judea” (v.16), and “sabbath” (v.20); but the part after24.31 is plainly without any localized restriction in its terminology.

C. The things mentioned before 24.31 are physical in nature, whereas all those things mentioned afterwards are moral in character. For instance, the nations, the mothers with children, and the children mentioned in the first part are all physical or literal in meaning; yet the virgins, the servants and the householder, and the goats and the sheep cited in chapter 25 have moral implications about them. In addition, “go . . . forth” in 24.26 and “went forth” in 25.1 are different in character, with the former being literal and the latter being moral in their implications.

D. Before 24.31 there is no moral demand included; what is required is to flee. But after 24.31 there are moral demands presented, such as watch, be ready, and so forth—which actions are the responsibilities of the saints at the end time.

E. Since the Jews are still expecting the Messiah, there are false Christs being mentioned before 24.31; but there is no word about false Christs after 24.31, because the latter part is addressed to the church.

Quote the other verses where you say 'eklektos' implies Jews! I really want to see them!

1) picked out, chosen

a) chosen by God,

1) to obtain salvation through Christ

a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God

2) the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable

3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

vv.23-24 THE ELECT. The purpose of these verses is to show that the parousia of the Lord is not secretive towards the Jews, rather is it to be an open affair. He will not manifest himself only after being on the earth for some time. No, the Lord shall come in the clouds and appear on the earth. Hence this section serves as a warning to the Jews lest they be deceived by the Antichrist. The Lord’s coming will be neither “here” nor “there”—but it will quite clearly come out of heaven. Christian believers have no such problem, but the Jews do. Because they have rejected Jesus, they are still waiting for a Messiah who will dwell in their midst. Here or there means anywhere. Yet Christ shall come from heaven as lightning comes forth (see v.27). Therefore, all who claim to be Christs manifested on earth are false Christs.

False Christs and false prophets are in plural number, thus indicating that there shall be more than one. Great signs and wonders will be performed during the three and a half years. And why? For the simple reason that the dragon will give his power to the first and the second beasts. Both 2 Thessalonians 2 and Revelation 13 record the wonders performed by these big three. Such wonders are not mere tricks or magic; nevertheless, the intention behind these wonders will be to cause people to believe in lies. They are the very opposite of the wonders of the Lord, which aim at leading people to believe the truth. The more we observe how evil spirits work wonders even in our own day, the more we are convinced that the lies of Satan are very real. Christians who live in the end time need to be especially careful. We receive the truth not because of seeing wonders, but because of trusting in the word of God. Take note that wonders will be greatly increased in the last days.

“So as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect”—The elect point to the Jews (Is. 45.4, 65.9; Deut. 7.6), though so far as the applicability of this verse’s teaching goes, we Christians are not completely excluded. We also have the possibility of being deceived. He who thinks he stands should take heed lest he fall.

"For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me." (Is. 45.4)
"And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there." (Is. 65.9)

Jesus has not departed from the Jewish people as his chosen nation yet at the time of of Matt. 24.4-31.


30 AND THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.




You said,


_______________________________________________________________

Since you take this hope away from yourself, obviously you will not be included in the first rapture, but when it happens, according to the prophecy with odds 83 trillion to 1, it sounds like you will accuse the brethren day and night (Rev. 12.10) of being a fake rapture after millions have vanished.

I would not want to be in your shoes when that happens.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I take no hope away from myself. You have faith in a false hope. One that you will be scoffed at about.

2 Peter 3:3 ¶Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
At least you will admit if a couple million vanish you will scoff at them.

You are one of those Peter is speaking about 2 Pet. 3.4, "They will say, “What happened to the promise that Jesus is coming again? [as you reject the rapture seen in Rev. 7.9, 11.15, 15.2-4 that occur before Rev. 19 when Jesus steps down] From before the times of our ancestors, everything has remained the same since the world was first created.”

Remember the first rapture.

"Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come" (Matt. 24.40,42).

Who is to watch? The Christian since it speaks of "your Lord". What happens if you watch or don't watch?

If you watch, will you be taken or will you be left?

The Lord comes to take and not leave. A thief in the night comes to steal the best first.

So if you are watchful you will be taken at the first rapture before the Tribulation starts.

Death is no blessing so to be left and die is not good. To be taken is better than being martyred in the Tribulation.

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21.36).

All these things that come to pass is the Tribulation. To stand before the Son of Man is in 3rd heaven "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9).

To be accounted worthy to escape the Tribulation you would need to be prayerful.

But God can't promise you won't be martyred when you enter the Tribulation, so this promise to escape the Tribulation can only be assured if you are raptured for keeping the word of His patience.

If "thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Rev. 3.10.

This hour of trial is the Tribulation which comes upon the whole world. A Christian can only be assured escape it if he is raptured.

God can't promise you won't be martyred if you enter the Tribulation, so this referring to the first rapture "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) before the trumpets of the Tribulation commence (8.7ff).

In summary: Overcomers are raptured at the first rapture (Rev. 7.9). Non-overcomers though saved pass through the Tribulation to be resurrected and/or raptured at the start of the 7th trumpet (1 Thess. 4.14-18, Rev. 11.15, 15-2-4) near the end of the Tribulation, but before the bowls of wrath, since it is the 7th trumpet that contains the bowls of wrath and we are not appointed unto wrath. Jesus returns with 10,000 overcomer believers (Jude 14,15) after the 7th trumpet-the 2,520 day of the Tribulation or 1260th day of the Great Tribulation-to reign with His overcomers over nations (Rev. 2.26) with a "rod of iron" for 1000 years (20.4-6). The Day of the Lord spans from the first rapture according to readiness to the 7th trumpet general rapture and resurrection according to completion to Jesus returning with His overcomers to reigning with them for 1000 years. As a day is to the Lord so is a 1000 years with us. "The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up" (2 Pet. 3.10).

Many have no faith to believe this, but it is amply proven in God's word in the plain reading of the Scriptures. And "Chiliasm" was the word used in the first and second centuries by the early church fathers for premillennialism so premillennialism existed long before the great schism.








 

veteran

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The gathering spoken of here is not the rapture of the church,...

Yes it is. There's only ONE gathering of Christ's Church to Him at His second coming, not 2, or 3, or 4, or 5, etc. There is NO such thing as a Pre-trib rapture anywhere in God's Word! That gathering event of Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 is the same event of trumps per 1 Thess.4, 1 Cor.15, and the day of The Lord events per the OT prophets. Christ's coming, the 'harpazo', God's wrath, destruction of the beast, day of The Lord, all occur at the same time immediately AFTER the great tribulation, specifically on the 7th Trumpet.


...because (1) parousia has already passed, and rapture is within the scope of parousia; (2) this is a gathering together, and hence it has no connection with parousia; (3) if it were indeed parousia it would be totally foreign to the meaning of the preceding passage; (4) by it pointing to the Jews it agrees with Matthew 23.37; (5) at the trump of God, the Lord would come to the air; and (6) the context proves to be concerning the Jews. (many Jewish references in Matt. 24.4-31 we can go over if you like unlike for Matt. 24.32-25.30 which is to the Church).

Like I've said for the third time already, Apostle Paul in 2 Thess.2:1-2 used BOTH parousia (coming) AND episunagoge (gathering) about the time of Christ's coming to gather His saints after the tribulation. You're trying to create more than one gathering of the saints to Christ by misassigning those two Greek words. It will not work! Why won't your idea work?...

Simple. The unbelievers of Israel are NOT going to be where Christ Jesus will be when He returns. They will be in the "outer darkness" for having refused Him!!

Matt 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)


If what you say were true that "gathering" can only mean the rapture I would concede your point, but how precious are the words of 2 Thess. 2.1, "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him."

Now, go look up those Greeks word for "coming" and "gathering together" per that 2 Thess.2:1-2 Scripture. That's the very same event of Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27. What's another way we can be certain of that? Well, just who was Christ Jesus giving those signs of Matt.24 and Mark 13??? Who was He speaking to upon the Mount of Olives? The unbelieving Jews?? Absolutely not.



The order given is first "by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" followed "by our gathering together with him." The Lord does not come and then meets the saints in the air for that is backwards. First the Lord meets the overcomers at the throne (Rev. 7.9) before the Tribulation starts (8.7ff)...

Whoah!! You haven't even read Matt.24 all the way through, have you? If you had, you would have easily noticed this...

Matt 24:21-24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
(KJV)

Just WHO are Christ's elect servants?? Unbelieving Jews that refuse Him??? NO, of course not! Then why did He show there His elect are ON EARTH there going through the TRIBULATION? even that the tribulation would be shortened for their sake???

You've obviously just come here to play GAMES, and are not serious about following God's Word at all. Either that or you cannot read. I must assume it's the former. Bye, no more wasting my time with someone like you.
 

envolve

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Jul 13, 2011
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Yes it is. There's only ONE gathering of Christ's Church to Him at His second coming, not 2, or 3, or 4, or 5, etc. There is NO such thing as a Pre-trib rapture anywhere in God's Word! That gathering event of Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 is the same event of trumps per 1 Thess.4, 1 Cor.15, and the day of The Lord events per the OT prophets. Christ's coming, the 'harpazo', God's wrath, destruction of the beast, day of The Lord, all occur at the same time immediately AFTER the great tribulation, specifically on the 7th Trumpet.



Matt. 24.40-42 says be watchful because you know not what hour your Lord doth come. Both the taken and the left are saved. The left can't be left because all Christians are raptured. Hence, those taken at first rapture and those left to be raptured at the last trumpet.

Matt. 24.4-31 pertains to the Jews. It wouldn't make much sense for Jesus to return and after gather His saints as being rapture. He raptures His saints before He comes. Hence, gathering after the tribulation is done is because raptures are done and the Israelites can come home.




Like I've said for the third time already, Apostle Paul in 2 Thess.2:1-2 used BOTH parousia (coming) AND episunagoge (gathering) about the time of Christ's coming to gather His saints after the tribulation. You're trying to create more than one gathering of the saints to Christ by misassigning those two Greek words. It will not work! Why won't your idea work?...

Simple. The unbelievers of Israel are NOT going to be where Christ Jesus will be when He returns. They will be in the "outer darkness" for having refused Him!!

Matt 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)
There is not two parousias in 2 Thess. 2.1-2 but one. Parousia encompasses rapture, so once raptured they can gather when Jesus returns. Gathering, assembling, can't take place until after. Same for the Jews gathering.

Outer darkness is not Hell. It is the place of loss of rewards, outside the light of rewards of reigning with Christ during the 1000 years. This is where non-overcomer Christians go.

The Jews will return to their homeland to be the center of all nations when Jesus returns (Matt. 24.31).

The children of the kingdom who overcometh will sit down with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. and reign over the nations.

The non-overcomers of the kingdom will lose the reward for 1000 years in outer darkness. Notice outer darkness never has attached to the element of fire or furnace. Because it is not Hell. Hell is bright and fiery. No fire in outer darkness.

There is much regret (gnashing teeth) and sorrow (weeping) for not overcoming in Christ, but once saved always saved. A person can't lose eternal life if they are saved.



Now, go look up those Greeks word for "coming" and "gathering together" per that 2 Thess.2:1-2 Scripture. That's the very same event of Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27. What's another way we can be certain of that? Well, just who was Christ Jesus giving those signs of Matt.24 and Mark 13??? Who was He speaking to upon the Mount of Olives? The unbelieving Jews?? Absolutely not.
There is no parousia in Matt. 24.31 because by then it has already happened, so what follows is the gathering of the Jews. You can't stop Israel from being a nation. What does the Bible say about how you treat your little brother the Jews?

You forget that the they were both Jews and Christians.

Whoah!! You haven't even read Matt.24 all the way through, have you? If you had, you would have easily noticed this...

Matt 24:21-24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
(KJV)

Just WHO are Christ's elect servants?? Unbelieving Jews that refuse Him??? NO, of course not! Then why did He show there His elect are ON EARTH there going through the TRIBULATION? even that the tribulation would be shortened for their sake???

You've obviously just come here to play GAMES, and are not serious about following God's Word at all. Either that or you cannot read. I must assume it's the former. Bye, no more wasting my time with someone like you.

This elect is the Jewish nation. Remember what I discussed about all the Jewish imagery in Matt. 24.4-31 and all the moral aspects to the Church in Matt. 24.32-25.30?
Just like Rev. 7.1-18 deals with the Jewish remnant of 144,000 there is also a 144,000 in Rev. 14.1-5 that are Christians and virgins.

Matt. 24.21-24 doesn't mention anything about servants.

The tribulation in Matt. 24.21 is referring to the past 20 centuries.

Sorry don't feel like repeating what I already said. You need to address why Matt. 24.4-31 is referring to the Jews. I have posted the same post several times to get you to look at it but you don't seem willing to do so.