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Featured When Is the Holy Spirit Received?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by GodsGrace, Apr 5, 2018.

  1. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    A poster has said that once we are saved we are to ask for the Holy Spirit.
    Many verses say we receive the Holy Spirit at salvation.
    When do we receive the Holy Spirit?

    Asking for the Holy Spirit

    Luke 11:9-13b
    “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him.”



    Acts 19:2
    He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."

    The Holy Spirit Received at Salvation-Indwelling in Believers

    John 14:17
    17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.


    1 Corinthians 6:19
    19Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
     
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  2. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Great question!
     
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  3. kit

    kit Member

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    I'm not sure.

    I think that Acts 19 could also support the "Spirit received at Salvation" possibility, because it goes on to record that the converts had been baptized in Johns baptism, not Christ's? So when they were baptized in Christ, the Spirit was finally given. Although the Spirit manifest when Paul laid his hands on them. I dunno, Apostles laying hands cant be the only means of receiving the Spirit (as demonstrated by Pauls question to the converts in this account). So it would seem the Spirit was given in Christ's Baptism in this account? Or possibly this passage shows that their are multiple ways the Spirit is given?

    I guess also in New Testament often new converts are said to have heard, believed and received baptism in a very short time frame - perhaps even hours? So accepting Salvation and Baptism were maybe more less a single event? Where as now (for many) we accept Salvation and sometime later receive Baptism.

    Is the movement of the Spirit, in people, in the Old Testament relevant to a conversation about how the Spirit is given in Christ?

    So many questions!
     
  4. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    When did you receive the Holy Spirit?
    And what does it mean?
     
  5. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Multiple ways the Spirit is given sounds good to me.
    For instance, care to take a stab at how John's baptism is different from Jesus'?
    The answer is in Acts 1.
    John's baptism forgave sins. Washed them away. It prepared people for the coming of the Kingdom of God.
    He prepared the way for Jesus. The roads were prepared for Kings before they travelled on them. They were made "straight". Rocks were removed and holes filled in. John prepared the spiritual road road for Jesus.

    Instead, Jesus told the apostles to wait in Jerusalem.
    Why?
     
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  6. kit

    kit Member

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    Again, Im not sure.

    Perhaps the road to Jerusalem was made straight for Christs entry. And then in victory Christ was able to pour out the Spirit to continue the work of the kingdom, right in the heart of the religious Capital? That the Apostles and the many converts may be the spiritual "harvest" and bare the "first fruits" of the new covenant? (Exodus 23:16, 34:22)
     
  7. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.
    In Acts 1:8 Jesus tells the Apostles to wait in Jerusalem where they will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon them, this is so that they could have the power to be Jesus' witnesses in the whole world.

    The power of the Holy Spirit fell upon them in Acts 2:4.
     
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  8. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    This is a really hard question, GodsGrace. For me it depends: Ezekiel 11:19-20 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: [20] That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

    He will put a new spirit in them and give them one heart. The heart (mind of Christ) of Christ. Has this happened?

    Jeremiah 31:31-34
    [31] Behold, the days come, saith the Lord , that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord : [33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord , I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    Spiritual Israel, a new Covenant? A New Testament. But then we completely ignore verse 34 saying it is in the Kingdom, Future tense.

    [34] And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord : for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord : for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    Sounds like a personal relationship between us and God. And He does it.

    1 John 2:27-29
    [27] But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. [28] And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. [29] If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

    When did I receive the Holy Spirit? When I stopped relying on man and started relying on God.
     
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  9. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Although we mature as Christians and gain new knowledge of God as the years pass, I believe that once we know God, we DO stop relying on man and start relying on God.

    In the Mosaic Covenant the laws were written on stone.
    In the New Covenant the laws are written on the heart so that we can know what will please God without having to check the law for every move we make.

    Also, I understand verse 34 to be for now. The Kingdom of God is also present here, right now. John 3:3. We only need to be born from above to be able to see this Kingdom. God forgives our sin. We forgive sin toward us too, but we cannot forget it. God is able to both forgive sin and to forget it. Once this happens, we are entitled to be members of the Kingdom and with the help of the Holy Spirit we no longer live lives full of sin. Everyone that is of God will live a right life.

    I believe those born of God and indwelt by the Holy Spirit will be much like those described by Jesus in Mathew 5:3-10.
     
  10. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    This was written by Rollo Tamasi:

    The Holy Spirit comes upon you forever when you receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

    The Holy Spirit will bring about some kind of change in you if it is genuine.
    From this point forward the Holy Spirit helps you to work on the things that need to change in your life, providing you let him.
    In time, you'll see good fruits or none at all.
    Or you'll see good fruits, and then suddenly the person disappears because they decide to give it all up.
    Never saved.
    Everything was in the head, never reached the heart.

    I believe people receive all the Holy Spirit all at once but don't know it.
    The church doesn't teach it.
    When you get saved, you should be also prayed for to be healed.
    And then taught about the gifts and prayed for to receive the gifts.
    We'd see a lot more powerful Christians in the churches then we do.
    Some churches (Baptists especially) get you saved, then never pray for a healing and tell you the gifts are dead.

    That's why we have a weak church.

    FOLLOW JESUS!

    I would rather be a nice guy than to have someone else be a nice guy for me.
    Allen Wynne - 2018
     
  11. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Well-Known Member

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    “Despite what is commonly believed and taught by orthodoxy, immersion or baptism (Greek--dipping) in water, as practiced by John the Baptist and afterward by our Lord and his disciples, had a different significance at first among the disciples from what it came to have after the Spirit dispensation was fully opened and its teachings received.

    John came and his disciples, preaching repentance of sins, and used immersion as a token or sign of the putting away of sin by the repentant one. Not that the immersion put away the filth of the flesh--sin—but that it illustrated it. Jesus' disciples did a similar work among the people (John 4:2). And after Pentecost, even, the Apostles, for a time at least, used the emblem in this same way. For instance, Acts 2:38, 41; 8:12, 13, 38. In each of these instances open sinners were to exemplify the putting away of their sins, and this, indeed, is the usual significance of the ordinance among Christians today.

    But baptism came to have a new and very different significance to the Apostles, under the guidance of the Spirit, as they came to discern its deeper meaning as illustrated both by the words and act of Jesus. In Jesus' case, surely, it did not typify a putting away of the filth of sin, for the question he put, but which his opponents never answered, was, "Which of you convicts me of sin?" and the record is that "in him was no sin."

    Jesus' baptism or immersion into water typically expressed his death, into which he voluntarily went for our sins. It represented the full consecration of his will to the Father's purposes and plans for our redemption. It was when "Jesus began to be about thirty years of age"--manhood according to the law –and therefore, the proper time for him to sacrifice his fully developed manhood, that he typified this surrendering or consecration by water immersion.

    The act of baptism represented in the one act of going down into the water and rising from it, his going down into death, and his trust in the Father's promise that he should not be left in death, but should have a resurrection. (Psa 16:10; Acts 2:31)

    When Jesus presented himself to John--regarding it, and properly, as the symbol of repentance and reformation –John was surprised and said, "I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?" He recognized Jesus' sinlessness and knew that he needed no repentance. Jesus answered, "Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becomes US (the church of which he was the head) to fulfill all righteousness." And his death, which his immersion symbolized, was indeed the fulfillment of all the righteous demands of justice against the condemned race of Adam.

    That which was expressed in that brief, symbolic act, was fully carried out in the three-and-a-half years of his ministry—for during that time he died daily, or was continually giving his life strength--sacrificing himself--for the sake of the Lord's truth, the Lord's children, and humanity in general. The act of immersion meant in symbol all that sacrifice which, commencing at Jordan, was completed at Calvary, and also his triumph as a new creature in the resurrection. Baptism into death meant sacrifice and suffering unto the end, both to Jesus and his followers—all who would share the present sufferings and the final glory.

    To all who would share the heavenly glory, the question comes as it did to James and John, "Are ye able to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?" (Matt 20:22). And if we have indicated our willingness, we have the promise that the ability shall be supplied; for our leader is our surety. And again, Jesus says: "I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how am I straightened until it be accomplished" (Matt 20:22; Luke 12:50). All must see that not the watery-symbolic death, but the reality, is here referred to.

    After Pentecost, under the leading of the Spirit, the Apostles came gradually to apprehend this deeper and more forcible significance of baptism when applied to Christians--to those who sought to follow the Master's footsteps of self-denial and crucifixion of the flesh to heavenly glory--the first resurrection. If by any means they might know him and the power of his resurrection (to spiritual conditions) and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death (Phil 3:10).

    They came to see that to be baptized with his baptism meant much more than John's, much more than putting away the filth of sin; that it now meant consecration--to sacrifice--of that which already was justified in God's sight. Hence it is that we find Paul so ably teaching and exhorting believers, who were already justified from sin by faith in the Redeemer, to put on Christ by baptism; to become members of the "little flock"--"members of his body"-- by being immersed into Christ. We quote his words:

    "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ, were baptized (immersed) into his death? Therefore, we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life"--walk as those having heavenly, not earthly, hopes and aims.

    How different is this meaning to the saints from that conveyed by John's baptism? So different, indeed, that the Apostles soon came to see that John's baptism, though the same in outward form, did not at all represent a baptism into Christ, and some who had been once baptized with the idea of putting away sin-filthiness were commanded to be baptized again, and thus express the new and deeper meaning to baptism (Acts 19:1-5 and 10:48).

    From these few brief testimonies we hope that all will be able to recognize the two baptisms (two in import; one in outward form). And let all clearly distinguish between the heart-work which is the real, and the watery-type, which is the shadow. All should see, too, that the outward form has even greater weight and is the more proper to be observed by those who see the reality. We must not only believe with the heart, but also confess with the mouth—an outward demonstration of our faith, thus the proper necessity of water immersion, the symbolic act.

    Water immersion, which typifies the death of the human nature, we regard as being the proper course, for those only who in heart, have made a full consecration or surrendering of themselves to the Lord--presenting themselves living sacrifices, in accordance with the Apostles injunction in Rom 12:1

    I beseech you therefore brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service

    The Apostle here was not addressing non-believers, this was not a call to sinners to repentance, nor was he addressing his fellow countrymen, Jews in particular, but rather the “brethren” for whom he was addressing were fellow believers in Jesus Christ as their Savior, brethren of the “Household of Faith”, those already reckoned restored or justified through their faith, but of whom had yet to had offered themselves in sacrifice to God. These he admonished to enter into covenant relationship with God, a “covenant of sacrificePsa 50:5, that they might progress from justification by faith unto full consecration and sanctification (being set-apart), that they might be joined to the body of Christ, “The Church of the First Born”.

    Not until the believer has taken this second step of a full consecration to the Lord are they begotten of the Holy Spirit, begotten to a “new nature”. Those who have yet to have taken this step even though believers in Christ are still “natural men”, and as the Apostle states, “The natural man comprehends not the things of the spirit” And so it is little wonder that most professed Christians have little understanding of the “deep things” of the Word of God.

    Does Paul dissent from this statement concerning two baptisms when he says; we have "one baptism?" No, he addressed the Church, those following in Jesus' footsteps, being baptized, not unto John's baptism, but into Christ-- into the anointed company (the spirit begotten) of which the anointed Jesus is the head.

    It is proper that each one should decide for himself positively, whether or not he has ever accepted the divine invitation as expressed here by the Apostle, for “now (during this Gospel Age, and only during this age) is the acceptable time” (2 Cor 6:2) for the acceptance of these sacrifices. Until this step of full consecration has taken place, one has yet to have been begotten of the Lord’s spirit, begotten to a new nature and joined to the body of Christ. Despite what orthodoxy teaches, although it is true that all professing Christians are considered members of the household of faith, only those fully consecrated, compose the body of Christ, “members in particular” (1 Cor 12:27). R444

    This lesson is fully explained in the Tabernacle and in the various ceremonies and functions of the typical priesthood, which the Apostle states most positively is “a shadow of good things to come”. (Heb. 8:5; 10:1; Col. 2:17).
     
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  12. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    It is impossible to have faith for salvation without the holy Spirit. It is the Spirit that convicts of sin. It is the Spirit that convinces the sinner of his need of a Saviour. It is the Spirit that reveals truth. The carnal man is at emnity with God...only by the Spirit can anyone understand or comprehend any spiritual matter. So the moment of conversion is the moment one permits Jesus into the life. Then the Spirit of Christ enters. The more one surrenders self, the more room for the Spirit to make the entrance. As self dies and is buried, so the Spirit increases more and more. The disciples received the Spirit while Jesus was still with them, on one occasion He breathed upon them His Spirit. It was at Pentecost of course when the fullness of the Spirit fell upon them, when they were fully surrendered in prayer and fasting and all in one accord. Nothing to do with the laying on of hands (Cormelius and his family had no hands laid upon them nor even prayer made yet they were filled and spoke with tongues).
    If you want the fullness of Christ within, make room for Him. Empty yourself of self, ego, pride, self sufficiency and independance, and let the floodgates open.
     
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  13. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello @GodsGrace,

    'In Whom ye also trusted,
    after that ye heard the word of truth,
    the gospel of your salvation:
    in Whom also after that ye believed,
    ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    Which is the earnest of our inheritance
    until the redemption of the purchased possession,
    unto the praise of His glory.'

    (Eph 1:13-14)

    In Christ, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit the moment we believe, we are His workmanship.

    Praise God!

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
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  14. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but we have to disagree with this synopsis (not all of it mind you), basically what you’re suggesting (perhaps not intentionally) is that a non-believer has to have the Holy Spirit before he can have faith enough to become a believer, we both know that’s not so. Likewise if as you say it is impossible to have faith for salvation without the Holy Spirit, then all of the faithful of the past are eternally lost, viz., Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets up to John the Baptist for none of these received the Holy Spirit, because the Spirit was not given to any until after Pentecost. One cannot be begotten of the Spirit except through the imputation of the merit of Christ’s righteousness and this was not given until after Pentecost.

    And yet all these faithful ones of the past are said to have “died in faith,” to have “obtained a good testimony through faith” (Heb 11:13-39).

    These were all carnal or “natural men” Where then did they receive this faith?

    What, then, shall we say, (we Israelite's), that Abraham our forefather hath found, according to the flesh (a carnal or natural man)? Not righteousness, certainly, for that he found by faith. (“…Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Rom 4: 3; Gen 15:6) Nor was his faith of a circumcised man, for it was several years previous to his circumcision that his faith was reckoned to him for righteousness. Moreover it is not "according to the flesh" that he was made heir of the world. The inheritance of the world is not his as the reward of having performed every requirement of God's righteous law-for this he did not do. It is his because he rested in the promise, because he relied on, trusted in, the unfailing word of God.

    So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” Rom 10:17

    God spoke, and Abraham believed.

    “It is as we learn the lesson of God’s inherent goodness, as we learn to respect his wisdom, love, justice and power, that our faith develops, grows stronger and stronger until we are able to trust the Lord, not only in things we see are working for our good, but in the things which seem entirely dark and out of which apparently no good can come. Faith is a gift of God in that it is cultivated to acceptable development by (trust in) the Lord’s gracious promises rightly received, appreciated and acted upon.”

    During the Gospel age none can receive God's spirit except by consecration, by a full and complete surrender of oneself to the will of God; while, in the next age, the carnal mind, being removed, the acquirement of the mind or spirit of God will be without difficulty.

    The difficulty at present is in understanding the difference between being moved by the spirit and receiving the Holy Spirit. The prophets of old were moved by the spirit whereas those who fully consecrate themselves now (during the Gospel age, during “the acceptable time2 Cor 6:2) receive the actual begetting of the Holy Spirit.

    In the next age there will be no more spirit begettal (change of natures), however just as in ages past some (a very few) were moved by the spirit, so too those living then will be moved by the spirit.

    This is expressed in Joel’s prophecy, however as is the custom of God to hide truth, both form the true Church as well as from the “worldly wise”, (the professed or nominal church) until the “due time” for its understanding, in symbols, parables, dark (hidden) sayings and etc., so it has appeared to be the divine intention here in Joel’s prophecy.

    The hiding or concealment here consists in stating the first fulfillment last, and the last first. And such is God's custom: He gave the natural seed of Abraham and its promises first and the spiritual and chief seed last; yet in the full completion of his plan, the spiritual seed must be glorified before the natural can have its promises fulfilled (Heb 11:40).

    If we TRANSPOSE the words of Joel 2:28, 29 we can see the two outpourings of gifts, etc., clearly--thus:

    Verse 29 And also on my menservants and on my maidservants I will pour out My Spirit (Ruach, mind, holy disposition; which was fulfilled in the Lord's servants at Pentecost) in those days (the saints in the Gospel age).”

    Verse 28And it shall come to pass afterward (that is after the Gospel age) that I will pour out My Spirit (Ruach, mind, holy disposition) on all flesh (putting a new spirit within them, removing the stony hearts); Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions.
     
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  15. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    For he (John) shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. (Luke 1:15)

    1 Peter 1:10-11
    10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
    11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

    I agree that Pentecost brought about a new anointing...a power and manifestation of the Spirit not seen or experienced before. But I disagree that the Spirit was not in the prophets and patriarchs. Are we to assume that Satan could possess men throughout all the ages but God couldn't?
    As for the unsaved, we agree; I think if you read my post a little more carefully you will see that I said the Spirit convicted us, convinced us. This was externally influencing our decisions and awakening our spiritual senses.
     
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  16. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    mmmkay, but you gotta believe the Nehushtan worshippers felt the same way, right
     
  17. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    We receive the Holy Spirit with our spirit (mind) when we believe the gospel and the Bible. Jesus encouraged those of His time to receive the Spirit b/c the Holy Ghost had not yet been given b/c He had not been glorified, Jn 7:39. When we repent, God forgives and we receive the Holy Ghost (the Holy Spirit in our soul) who regenerates us (Titus 3:5) and renews our spirit.

    skpair
     
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  18. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    I found this helpful:

    There is a distinct difference between the Holy Spirit indwelling us and the Spirit filling us. The filling of the Holy Spirit was a tool used by God since the Old Testament. In Deuteronomy 34:9, Joshua is filled with the Holy Spirit to take on Moses' responsibilities. In 1 Samuel 19:18-24, King Saul and his servants are filled with the Spirit and prophesy. And in Luke 1:15, the angel explains to Zacharias that his son, John the Baptist, will be filled with the Spirit. After Jesus' death and resurrection the Holy Spirit continued to fill people, including Peter (Acts 4:8), Paul (Acts 13:9), and the other disciples (Acts 13:52). This is different from the simple indwelling of the Spirit experienced by all believers. Some also confuse the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We believe it is the same as the indwelling of the Spirit, although others think it is more similar to the filling of the Spirit.

    source: When do we receive the Holy Spirit?
     
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  19. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Not to complicate the question but hopefully to clarify it, when is a person born again or born from above? All of us were dead [or still are?] in the eyes of God until we were born again receiving the new Life which Jesus came to provide. When were we first "quickened"? What did the quickening? Was it not the Holy Spirit within us that brought us to Life [if we have been brought]?

    "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

    Life is Jesus and is inside of the gate/door that was closed and put under guard [Gen 3:24] when Adam and Eve were placed outside of it.

    "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7

    So then an overcomer may eat of the Tree of Life, which Tree was inside the gate. The gate is also the Door, which again I believe is Jesus [John 10:9]:

    What does a person have to overcome in order to enter the gate/Door? Jesus paid the price for sin, but we must overcome the ways which would lead us back to sin again if we were to follow them. I find them described in this verse:

    "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16

    In addition to paying the price for our sins, Jesus also promised us the Holy Spirit, the means or power to overcome those ways of man which when followed lead us back to sin.

    So then all cleaned out by the sacrifice of Jesus, we are ready to become overcomers. We are ready to remove the ways to sin. We are ready to have something new built within us, God's Way. Is this not the rebirth of that which was dead?


    So then when is the Holy Spirit received? When are ready to start overcoming the ways of man in us at the time we are born again. Pick your time if you want to call it more closely than that.

     
  20. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Great post !!
     
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