When one is deceived, does that make him a sinner?

[Tong2020]

I just thought that not many discussions are about this subject. So I started this thread so we can share our thoughts here to others.

Thank you.

Let me start this off with a simple No answer to the question in the thread Title.

* please see post #3 for some necessary clarifications on the topic question.

Thank you.

Tong
R4704

 

[amadeus]

I just thought that not many discussions are about this subject. So I started this thread so we can share our thoughts here to others.

Thank you.

Let me start this off with a simple No answer to the question in the thread Title.

Tong
R4704

Is there is perhaps a distinction to be made?

Is a person deceived because he has never been alive to God? That is he has never moved from the death to which Adam and Eve brought us in spite of the Life that Jesus offered. For whatever reason, the Life offered was never received.

Or is a person deceived because after having received the Life which Jesus brought, he lost his love of the Truth and was sent a strong delusion from God?

Are both of these guys then sinners or is the former simply dead while the latter is the sinner?

 

[Tong2020]

Is there is perhaps a distinction to be made?

Is a person deceived because he has never been alive to God? That is he has never moved from the death to which Adam and Eve brought us in spite of the Life that Jesus offered. For whatever reason, the Life offered was never received.

Or is a person deceived because after having received the Life which Jesus brought, he lost his love of the Truth and was sent a strong delusion from God?

Are both of these guys then sinners or is the former simply dead while the latter is the sinner?

The “one” in the topic title refers to one who have any or some kind of knowledge of the one true God. Could be of the Christians, of the Jews, of the Gentiles, or of the people from Adam till the time of the Law.

“Deceived” would be having been made to accept as true anything that is false, by some means, that appears good and and pleasing, and sounds beneficial and profitable, reasonable, and wise.

Let’s take one familiar case, that of Eve. She was deceived. Does that make her a sinner?

Tong
R4709

 

[Abaxvahl]

I just thought that not many discussions are about this subject. So I started this thread so we can share our thoughts here to others.

Thank you.

Let me start this off with a simple No answer to the question in the thread Title.

Tong
R4704

Sin is by definition a knowing choice. You can not be deceived into sin. If a person is deceived into sin but also punished for it by God (like Eve) then it means there are elements of it they were not deceived about at all.

 

[marks]

Sin is by definition a knowing choice. You can not be deceived into sin. If a person is deceived into sin but also punished for it by God (like Eve) then it means there are elements of it they were not deceived about at all.

Yet Eve still died. But the sin is accounted to Adam.

Was Eve punished for eating, or for giving the fruit to Adam to eat?

My understanding is that the tree's fruit contained it's own consequence, i.e. it was deadly, spiritually deadly.

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

The “one” in the topic title refers to one who have any or some kind of knowledge of the one true God. Could be of the Christians, of the Jews, of the Gentiles, or of the people from Adam till the time of the Law.

Deception would be of anything that is short of the truth or a misrepresentation of what is true concerning God and the things of the Spirit of God.

Let’s take one familiar case, that of Eve. She was deceived. Does that make her a sinner?

Tong
R4709

I see Eve and her spouse, once they had disobeyed God, as dead in His eyes.

Prior to their disobedience they both apparently knew God although from what we are able to read it seems that Adam knew Him somehow more closely than Eve since he was not deceived.

Is being dead in the eyes of God equal to being a sinner in the eyes of God? If yes, then they both would have been sinners after the disobedience.

Jesus says that he was sent to bring Life. Everyone now has the opportunity to be resurrected from the death, which they have called life, into the Life which Jesus made available.

 

[Tong2020]

Eve was deceived. She was made to believe that when she eat of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil, that she will not surely die.

At that point, she was deceived. The question is, does that make her a sinner?

Note, the question is before she ate of the tree. At that point, she was at a deceived state.

Tong
R4715

 

[Abaxvahl]

Yet Eve still died. But the sin is accounted to Adam.

Was Eve punished for eating, or for giving the fruit to Adam to eat?

My understanding is that the tree's fruit contained it's own consequence, i.e. it was deadly, spiritually deadly.

Much love!

I think she was punished for both, as she knew it violated the commandment of God.

 

[Abaxvahl]

Eve was deceived. She was made to believe that when she eat of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil, that she will not surely die.

At that point, she was deceived. The question is, does that make her a sinner?

Note, the question is before she ate of the tree. At that point, she was at a deceived state.

Tong
R4715

She is a sinner because she knew it violated the commandment of God. The deception was only in part of her intention in eating it, not wholly though.

Their eyes were opened and they did not physically die immediately, this much was true. But the whole story was not told and that their eyes would be opened in a bad way was not mentioned.

 

[marks]

I think she was punished for both, as she knew it violated the commandment of God.

Did God command Eve not to eat?

Much love!

 

[marks]

She is a sinner because she knew it violated the commandment of God. The deception was only in part of her intention in eating it, not wholly though.

Their eyes were opened and they did not physically die immediately, this much was true. But the whole story was not told and that their eyes would be opened in a bad way was not mentioned.

Is it intrinsically bad to know about good and evil? God has that knowledge, so I'm thinking it can't be wrong of itself, but wrong for Man, at least at that time.

I think Eve was expecting her eyes to be opened, only, she had no concept of what she would see. I think the deception was in "desirable" to make one wise. It made her wise, but she didn't like it.

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

Did God command Eve not to eat?

Much love!

Adam did . How else could she have known she was not to eat of that tree . SHE told the serpent , WE cant eat of it .
Someone told her . So eve was without excuse . She did not eat of that tree in blind ignorance .
I assume adam told her . Either way she knew . Now let all that breathes praise the LORD .
Since we are on the subject of LORD ., My soul is fat and happy when the glorious LORD is pointed to , whether i do it or someone else .
SO let all who names the name of JESUS , depart from inquity , cling to the KING and let the LORD be praised .

 

[Abaxvahl]

Did God command Eve not to eat?

Much love!

Yes, because Eve proceeded from Adam and in a sense was in Adam. She herself knew God commanded her and it also says in Scripture "she became a transgressor," but transgressors transgress a Commandment. It also says "because of a woman we all die," so in some sense this is also imputed to her.

 

[Abaxvahl]

Is it intrinsically bad to know about good and evil? God has that knowledge, so I'm thinking it can't be wrong of itself, but wrong for Man, at least at that time.

I think Eve was expecting her eyes to be opened, only, she had no concept of what she would see. I think the deception was in "desirable" to make one wise. It made her wise, but she didn't like it.

Much love!

It isn't bad to know good and evil in a certain sense, and your point about God's knowledge is true, so it is not evil in the sense that God has. I think what Genesis is referring to here is experiential knowledge of evil, that is, of having done it, dwelt in it, been corrupted even to your soul in it, experiencing it in yourself. But at the time yes it was bad for man to have that.

 

[marks]

It also says "because of a woman we all die," so in some sense this is also imputed to her.

Where is this? I can't think of the place.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes, because Eve proceeded from Adam and in a sense was in Adam. She herself knew God commanded her and it also says in Scripture "she became a transgressor," but transgressors transgress a Commandment.

That's how I've thought about it, that God's command to Adam automatically passed to Eve. That she became a transgressor, yes, that seems to make the case.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I assume adam told her .

That's what I've assumed, but I realize this assumption isn't the same thing as knowing.

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

That's what I've assumed, but I realize this assumption isn't the same thing as knowing.

Much love!

correct my friend . we dont KNOW for sure on that subject . Let all that draws breath praise the glorious wonderous magnificent LORD .

 

[Tong2020]

If one is deceived (I am talking of things pertaining to God), have he sinned by that?

I don’t think so. No.

What happened is that his/her mind had been corrupted. It is not a good situation to be at all, but is a very sad and very dangerous situation to be in.

Tong
R4720

 

[Cristo Rei]

When one is deceived, does that make him a sinner?

Not always but i think they will be led to sin much easier