When to Leave Church

[Christ4Me]

Ephesians 5:1Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. 13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. 14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, 16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. 17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

More scripture to come....

 

[Christ4Me]

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

More scripture to come....

 

[Christ4Me]

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Christ4Me]

2 Thessalonians 3:1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing. 14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

 

[Christ4Me]

Matthew 10:13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

 

[Christ4Me]

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

 

[Christ4Me]

1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

And what is the conclusion for the title- when to leave church?

 

[Christ4Me]

And what is the conclusion for the title- when to leave church?

When a church refuses correction by the scripture and refuses to depart from iniquity, leave the church.

I know that believers say there is no perfect church but yet we are to correct one another in Christ's love and if the individual believer refuses to listen and even to repent before the whole congregation, then he is to be excommunicated from the assembly. So we ought to leave the assembly & leave them to Him to get the lost sheep, even if they do get excommunicated from the Marriage Supper in Heaven, for He shall lose none.

Matthew 18: 10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

When a church refuses correction by the scripture and refuses to depart from iniquity, leave the church.

I agree!

But I wonder just how far you will go after believers imperfections in the Matthew 18 course of church discipline? Are you implying being a sin policemen

I know that believers say there is no perfect church but yet we are to correct one another in Christ's love and if the individual believer refuses to listen and even to repent before the whole congregation, then he is to be excommunicated from the assembly. So we ought to leave the assembly

So I don't misunderstand, are you saying here that if a church removes an unrepenant believer, you advise people leaving that church?

When a church refuses correction by the scripture and refuses to depart from iniquity, leave the church.

Just so there is no misunderstanding let me ask:

By the church do you mean the leadership?

As for iniquity, do you mean overt sin only? Do you also consider doctrines you may disagree with (outside of the five fundamentals) cause for correction?

Now I have counseled many members and pastors over my 47 years. I firmly believe that if a church is preaching real heresy and unwilling to change- yes one should leave.

Bringing discipline to an elder should only be doen by a member with 2-3 elders with him. as per Timothy.

there are many teachings we can disagree on and not cause division. We can agree to disagree! Let me exemplify:

I am a staunch "5 point calvinist" or TULIP, I worship in a church that would be described as 3 1/2 point church. We disagree, but I am not going to leave the church, for in most areas we are in ttotal agreement and I can easily sit under the authority of the pastor.

 

[Christ4Me]

I agree!

But I wonder just how far you will go after believers imperfections in the Matthew 18 course of church discipline? Are you implying being a sin policemen

It is one thing when a believer repents after correction, but it is another when the believer refuses correction and still prefers t live in sin.

So I don't misunderstand, are you saying here that if a church removes an unrepentant believer, you advise people leaving that church?

No. Sorry for the confusion. By citing the example of an unrepentant believer for why he needs to be excommunicated by the church, we should leave the church when the church is unrepentant.

One has to wonder if a church is compromising for the sake of keeping members by not excommunicating an unrepentant believer. That is not taking care of the body of Christ but taking care of revenue coming into the church.

Just so there is no misunderstanding let me ask:

By the church do you mean the leadership?

Pretty much, yes, since they are the ones that allow for opportunity to discuss only designated issue in the congregation & that time is limited too

As for iniquity, do you mean overt sin only? Do you also consider doctrines you may disagree with (outside of the five fundamentals) cause for correction?

2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 addresses those who depart from faith and the traditions taught of us, but we are not to treat them as the enemy but admonish them as brother still per 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15.

Now I have counseled many members and pastors over my 47 years. I firmly believe that if a church is preaching real heresy and unwilling to change- yes one should leave.

Sometimes a church can be engaged in an iniquity and know it not. When confronted, they cannot believe they were doing wrong all this time.

The Falling Away from the Faith in These Latter Days

Bringing discipline to an elder should only be done by a member with 2-3 elders with him. as per Timothy.

I agree if the church was willing. One time my former church was confronted with members in the church being Freemasons. They were going to make an issue of it at a meeting until they found out how man members were Freemasons & it got swept under the rug & cancelled the meeting.

there are many teachings we can disagree on and not cause division. We can agree to disagree! Let me exemplify:

I am a staunch "5 point calvinist" or TULIP, I worship in a church that would be described as 3 1/2 point church. We disagree, but I am not going to leave the church, for in most areas we are in ttotal agreement and I can easily sit under the authority of the pastor.

We are not supposed to be identifying ourselves with any one. Paul says this is carnal.

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

The fact that Calvin supported the execution of a heretic leaves much to be desired in being known as a follower of Calvin. John 16:1-3 We are not to kill heretics but excommunicate them once they refuse correction by the scripture.

Keeping the faith is the good fight. When I hear Catholics that say they believe they are saved but they are staying in the Catholic Church for other's sakes, I have to wonder the effectiveness for doing so because in the eyes of the Catholic, they may hear what their faith but them staying within the Catholic Church which by their dogma is serving as a means for salvation, makes them look like they are staying just in case they are wrong.

I know we all prophesy in art and know in part, but heresy and sinful living needs to be addressed in caring for the body of Christ other wise , those in sin may not see it as serious to repent from with His help, as scripture been shown to them to be. It shows lack of conviction from the church.

I can see correcting someone and yet they have a hard time seeing that correction, for why prayer is needed, but when they are staunch about refusing to repent by the whole church, they are to leave with the knowledge that when they do repent, they can come back in, but not before the whole congregation knowing he or she or they have repented.

A Christian girl believed fornication only pertains to prostitution. So it takes patience and the word to show her fornication is sex before marriage. But if she refuses that correction by the scripture, then she is to be excommunicated or otherwise she will just see it as not a serious issue and that the church is not really sure about it for why she is staying within, and she winds up corrupting others by her sinful living.

When the church fails to excommunicate a believer not abiding in Him & His words, Jesus will when He comes as the Bridegroom. Count on Him.

 

[Berserk]

Christ4Me: "I know that believers say there is no perfect church but yet we are to correct one another in Christ's love and if the individual believer refuses to listen and even to repent before the whole congregation, then he is to be excommunicated from the assembly."

But how do we know when and how someone needs behavioral correction? A common evangelical way is through unsubstantiated church gossip.
A better way is the Catholic practice of regular confession preceded by deep self-reflection. That way church leadership can have a reliable perspective on what needs correction!

 

[Lambano]

When to leave church? If the service ends at 12:00, be out of there by 12:01 so you can beat the Baptists to the Cracker Barrel.

 

[Christ4Me]

Christ4Me: "I know that believers say there is no perfect church but yet we are to correct one another in Christ's love and if the individual believer refuses to listen and even to repent before the whole congregation, then he is to be excommunicated from the assembly."

But how do we know when and how someone needs behavioral correction? A common evangelical way is through unsubstantiated church gossip.
A better way is the Catholic practice of regular confession preceded by deep self-reflection. That way church leadership can have a reliable perspective on what needs correction!

Sometimes, a believer can just come across a brother caught in a trespass, but no doubt unsubstantiated gossip can be the means.

Paul addressed a whole church for having knowledge of a brother having his father's wife & did nothing to correct nor anything of the sort in 1 Corinthians 5:1-13 and it did not sound like he was hearing that report from a priest per the confession booth. Indeed, if they had it back then, one would think he would be corrected right away or excommunicated when not repenting rather than the whole church knowing about it.

Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

That is the thing about the Catholic Church. They do not remove priests for molesting children but transfer them somewhere else still in that position of trust to continue molesting children and the Vatican knew about it too. When it comes to any member living in sin, they do not excommunicate at all, but remain in the church in complete disregard to what Jesus said and Paul said for excommunication.

So not a whole lot of good has come out of that practice per the confessional.

And confessing to one another is not limited to the priest as prayer request may be given in church for those struggling with sin.

Galatians 6:1Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. 17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. 19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Reads to me that it is not on the priest alone as if he serves as the single member as the whole body of Christ that is ministering in that body of Christ.

Incidentally, nowadays hardly any church excommunicates and not just the Catholic Church and so the RCC is not alone in having that fault. And churches do have a tendency to treat pastors like superman in doing everything the body of Christ is supposed to do in ministry to one another.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

We are not supposed to be identifying ourselves with any one. Paul says this is carnal.

Well making this kind of identification, lets one knows what one believes. It is not a declaration of superiority or spirituality, just to let others know where one stands on certain issues. Like saying I am pro life etc.

 

[farouk]

...so you can beat the Baptists to the Cracker Barrel.

LOL.

I thought it was the shrimp chain of restaurants...

 

[farouk]

And what is the conclusion for the title- when to leave church?

@Ronald Nolette I always think the activities of Acts 2.42 are a good yardstick for a local church.

 

[Christ4Me]

Well making this kind of identification, lets one knows what one believes. It is not a declaration of superiority or spirituality, just to let others know where one stands on certain issues. Like saying I am pro life etc.

On that point, I do not think any one can doubt what you mean but nowadays, a Baptist church can wind up being Pentecostal even, but still call themselves a Baptist.

Some Protestants can wind up defending the Catholic Church & teaching for them even.

Seems we can only know where the other stand by our words and not by a church; hence by our faith in Jesus Christ & His words rather than the teachings of the church since we are to be His disciples in testifying of the Son to seek His glory rather than a disciple of a church in testifying what the church is about in seeking the glory of the church.

 

[Lambano]

LOL.

I thought it was the shrimp chain of restaurants...

Ooo, shrimp! That sounds yummy!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

@Ronald Nolette I always think the activities of Acts 2.42 are a good yardstick for a local church.

True, but when churches cool, if the faithful leave, we kill hopes for honest revival! In my 47 years as a follower of Jesus, I have been a member of only 2 churches. I stayed faithful during highs and lows ups and downs, times of fires of revival and iciness of apathy. WE ARELLED TO LOCAL ASSEMBLIES TO MINISTER AND EDIFY THE LOCAL ASSEMBLY. IT SHOUD BE A GRAVE, SERIOUS AND PATIENTLY THOUGHT OUT TO LEAVE UNLESS OF COURSE THERE IS VERY OPEN AND GRIEVOUS SIN THAT IS UNREPENTED BY THE ELDERS OR OVERT SERIOOUS HERESY THAT IS NOT RENOUNCED BY THE ELDERS.