When we are born.

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marks

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When we are born, we are fully human. We have all our parts, but we don't know how to use them. And we aren't as strong as we will be.

When we are born again, we are fully God's spirit children. We have all our parts, but we don't know how to use them. And we aren't as strong as we will be.

So we aren't told to become the New Man, that's already been accomplished for us. But we are told to put on the new man, and the more we do that, the stronger he becomes.

There is a significant difference in hoping to become someone better, and learning how to be the better person we have already become.

Are we waiting for something we don't think we have yet?

Or will we walk in faith, believing in things we do not see?

Much love!
 
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quietthinker

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Please explain your expression 'God's spirit children' marks.
 

marks

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Please explain your expression 'God's spirit children' marks.

John 3:3-8 KJV
3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8) The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John 1:11-13 KJV
11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Does that help?

Much love!
 
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Waiting on him

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John 3:3-8 KJV
3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8) The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John 1:11-13 KJV
11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Does that help?

Much love!
It’s His breath breathed into us, that gives life.
 

marks

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It’s His breath breathed into us, that gives life.
It's an entirely different kind of life.

Formerly, we were the soul, psyche, personality, formed from our flesh bodies. A mind housed in a brain, housed in a body.

Now, we are not in flesh, but in Spirit. A new mind, not housed in a brain . . . not subject to our bodies of flesh. A new spiritual life.

I used to think of "spiritual life" as, if you will, having a new direction in life. A life more towards spiritual things. Now I think of "spiritual life" as being a new kind of being, one who lives in the celestial realm sharing this body with it's original occupant. But not that original occupant. A spirit being who was born from God, inhabiting the body of a being who was born from Adam.

Much love!
 

Waiting on him

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It's an entirely different kind of life.

Formerly, we were the soul, psyche, personality, formed from our flesh bodies. A mind housed in a brain, housed in a body.

Now, we are not in flesh, but in Spirit. A new mind, not housed in a brain . . . not subject to our bodies of flesh. A new spiritual life.

I used to think of "spiritual life" as, if you will, having a new direction in life. A life more towards spiritual things. Now I think of "spiritual life" as being a new kind of being, one who lives in the celestial realm sharing this body with it's original occupant. But not that original occupant. A spirit being who was born from God, inhabiting the body of a being who was born from Adam.

Much love!
Agreed, the body of Christ is what we are seated in the Heavens declaring the glory of God.
 

quietthinker

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John 3:3-8 KJV
3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8) The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John 1:11-13 KJV
11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Does that help?

Much love!
sorry, no. I was thinking more of your choice of words in your expression 'God's spirit children'.....why you chose that particular wording?

Edit...I see you've given an explanation in post #5
 
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marks

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sorry, no. I was thinking more of your choice of words in your expression 'God's spirit children'.....why you chose that particular wording?

Edit...I see you've given an explanation in post #5
To give a more direct answer, why did I choose that wording, to give a clear distinction between the nature of the new man compared to the nature of the old man.

To use wording not normally used for something we think of often, in order to elicit a fresh look at the matter.

Much love!
 
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Riverwalker

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Nice posting, yes, this is why discipleship is so important. While we are babes in spirit we can still do so much harm, all well meaning

Please explain your expression 'God's spirit children' marks.

Perhaps this will help
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
 

marks

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Perhaps this will help
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

I was just thinking of this verse last night, in what is says about who we are, being born of God.

We cry out by His Spirit, calling Him Daddy! Father! We are not in flesh but in spirit, so in our spirit, which is united to His Spirit, we cry out a spiritual cry.

Much love!
 

David H.

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When we are born again, we are fully God's spirit children. We have all our parts, but we don't know how to use them. And we aren't as strong as we will be.

So we aren't told to become the New Man, that's already been accomplished for us. But we are told to put on the new man, and the more we do that, the stronger he becomes.

That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. (Ephesians 4:22-24)

From the context of this passage, and if you read from Ephesians 4:17-24 you will see this, that the Scripture does not support this position. We are being "recreated" in true Holiness and righteousness, By the Spirit of God dwelling in us. To "put on" is the word endyo which means to cloth oneself. Spiritual clothing being the metaphor here. The Old man has to be "Put off", or cast off, for the new clothing to be put on. Keep in mind Paul is giving this instruction to a group of believers, Not to a group of unregenerate people. This is a process that occurs in the life of the believer.

Consider the following scriptures....
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. (1 Corinthians 13:11)

For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. (Hebrews 5:13-14)

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. (2 Corinthians 5:1-5)

Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. (Revelation 3:17-18)

Consider the term an "earnest of the Spirit", the word earnest means:
money which in purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid. (Strong's G728)

If i receive a downpayment on something, it assumes a full payment later on down the road. We are given a downpayment till we are able to receive the fulness of the Spirit, to be led by the Spirit completely, to Put on the clothing of righteousness and true holiness. What are the stipulation of this contract? That is what you need to be asking yourself as a believer in Christ Jesus. I cannot answer that for you personally, but I do know that saying "you have need of nothing" is detrimental to discovering what hinders the believer from reaching the fulness of Christ.

I Know you despise this sort of talk, but I must speak this until it sinks in, Putting on is not merely accepting what He has done for us, it involves us receiving from Him what he has promised us in fulness, we cannot do this with a wrong heart.... Read carefully James 4:1-10.

From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
 
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marks

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To "put on" is the word endyo which means to cloth oneself. Spiritual clothing being the metaphor here. The Old man has to be "Put off", or cast off, for the new clothing to be put on. Keep in mind Paul is giving this instruction to a group of believers, Not to a group of unregenerate people. This is a process that occurs in the life of the believer.

Ephesians 4:22-24 LITV
22) For you have put off the old man, as regards the former behavior, having been corrupted according to the deceitful lusts,
23) and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24) and to put on the new man, which according to God was created in righteousness and true holiness.

Again, we are to "put on", not "become" the new man.

2 Corinthians 5:17-18 LITV
17) So that if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new!
18) And all things are from God, the One having reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and having given to us the ministry of reconciliation,

This is because we are a new creation/creature. "All things have become new." "All things are from God." What would you say these "things" are? That have all become new? I think it's referring to us. We are new, completely new. We've become new people, and instead of being from Adam, now are from God. Everything about us is from God.

This is why we are told to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. It's how we think. That's the problem. It can be difficult to believe that we truly are completely new, completely freed from sin and flesh, when we see the works of the flesh still present in our lives.

If you think you must fight and struggle with the flesh for control, fight and struggle you will. If you think that God gives you victory over flesh by trusting Him, then in trusting Him you will know victory over your flesh.

I Know you despise this sort of talk,

Oh, please! Stop putting false words in my mouth!

This is lying, you know. Speaking falsely of me. As has been said ad infinitum, I disagree with you. You seem to want to disregard that, in order to make out like I'm just knee-jerking some emotional response or something.

I should think that an honest conversation wouldn't keep rehashing the same old falsehood.

Colossians 3:9-10 KJV
9) Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10) And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Much love!
 

marks

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Consider the term an "earnest of the Spirit", the word earnest means:
money which in purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid. (Strong's G728)

If i receive a downpayment on something, it assumes a full payment later on down the road. We are given a downpayment till we are able to receive the fulness of the Spirit, to be led by the Spirit completely, to Put on the clothing of righteousness and true holiness. What are the stipulation of this contract? That is what you need to be asking yourself as a believer in Christ Jesus. I cannot answer that for you personally, but I do know that saying "you have need of nothing" is detrimental to discovering what hinders the believer from reaching the fulness of Christ.

AGAIN . . .

I say, I am complete in Christ. I say, God has given me all I need for life and godliness through His great and precious promises. I guess you have a problem with those verses. You don't seem to think that they are true. And rather then really have a conversation, you simply equate my faith in the truth in those passages, you want to make that equal to the Laodicean?

Talk about detrimental! An outright rejection of the plain teaching in the Bible.

If i receive a downpayment on something, it assumes a full payment later on down the road. We are given a downpayment till we are able to receive the fulness of the Spirit, to be led by the Spirit completely, to Put on the clothing of righteousness and true holiness.

So it's really true. You are thinking you've only got part of the Holy Spirit, and you're waiting for the rest of Him. But is that really what the Scripture teaches?

Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14) Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

This verse tells us something a little different. We haven't receive a partial payment of Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit has come to live in us, as a partial payment againt the whole thing, which includes the redemption of our bodies.

Romans 8:22-23 KJV
22) For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

1 Corinthians 15:49-53 KJV
49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

2 Corinthians 1:20-22 KJV
20) For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
21) Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22) Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

The Holy Spirit Himself IS our down payment.

Ephesians 1:14 KJV
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The takeaway here is that this earnest is given until the redemption of the purchased possession. NOT some other outcome.

Much love!
 

marks

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Putting on is not merely accepting what He has done for us, it involves us receiving from Him what he has promised us in fulness,
Mere mental assent . . . I'm sure everyone recognizes this is what I'm talking about.

Not.

And putting on is not "waiting to receive the rest of the Holy Spirit so we can start acting righteous.". It means, to choose for the new man to be in charge of what your body and mind are doing, instead of allowing the old man to be in charge.

Again, the difference is, in the one case you supposedly lack what you need for life and godliness, and are waiting for that lack to be filled. In the other case, what the Bible teaches us, you have all you need for life an godliness, you only need believe this is true, choosing to live accordingly.

In many cases, this takes a long time to go from 20% to 80%, let's say. And in many cases, someone goes from 5% to 95% in the blink of an eye. God has as many ways of working with His children as He has children, I think. Though it's equally true He does the same things in each of us. But not always in the same way, and not always at the same speed.

Just assuming everyone is like you, and that God deals with everyone just the same as He deals with you, I don't think that's useful or accurate.

Much love!
 

marks

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For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. (2 Corinthians 5:1-5)

You know this is talking about when we die, right? That we won't just be disembodied spirits?

We have the Holy Spirit as a down payment, a guarantee, until we are fully redeemed.

1 Corinthians 15:49-54 KJV
49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


Much love!
 

David H.

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Ephesians 4:22-24 LITV
22) For you have put off the old man, as regards the former behavior, having been corrupted according to the deceitful lusts,
23) and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24) and to put on the new man, which according to God was created in righteousness and true holiness.

Again, we are to "put on", not "become" the new man.

2 Corinthians 5:17-18 LITV
17) So that if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new!
18) And all things are from God, the One having reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and having given to us the ministry of reconciliation,

This is because we are a new creation/creature. "All things have become new." "All things are from God." What would you say these "things" are? That have all become new? I think it's referring to us. We are new, completely new. We've become new people, and instead of being from Adam, now are from God. Everything about us is from God.

This is why we are told to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. It's how we think. That's the problem. It can be difficult to believe that we truly are completely new, completely freed from sin and flesh, when we see the works of the flesh still present in our lives.

If you think you must fight and struggle with the flesh for control, fight and struggle you will. If you think that God gives you victory over flesh by trusting Him, then in trusting Him you will know victory over your flesh.

What you are in fact preaching is a form of "Positive confession". As Long as you believe hard enough that you are complete in him, then you are complete in Him.... Dale Carnegie would be proud of your theology. Your theology wants to go to 2 Corinthians 5:17 while Skipping 2 Corinthians 5:1-5. It says believe hard enough and you will have the promise, and is the ultimate in "works" theology for its making the focus on us mentally agreeing on something (renewing the mind as your catch phrase states) Thus making faith a work we do. Sanctification comes not by us believing hard enough, but by us receiving, by the working of God with us, The Holy Ghost. Our mind is part of the problem, as it too is carnal and fleshly for the carnal mind is at enmity with God. Only in submission can man receive the Sanctification of the Spirit. When You put your mind in its proper place, then you will begin to understand. Then Your mind will begin to be renewed Biblically. As The Quote from Tozer stated You want to deprive the Believer of any repentance, Obedience and cross carrying, thus making Spirituality a wholly mental acknowledgment of a certain set of facts without living those doctrines.

This it why it says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (Philippians 2:12-13) for we do not believe with the mind, but with the heart (Romans 10:9)
 

marks

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As Long as you believe hard enough that you are complete in him, then you are complete in Him....
Mind rot.

Either you have no concept of what I'm saying, or you are trying to make it look like something else.

You seem like a smart guy.
 

marks

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As Long as you believe hard enough that you are complete in him, then you are complete in Him....

Do you not believe the Word???

Colossians 2:8-11 KJV
8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11) In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Much love!