When will the "sudden destruction" from which "they will not escape" referenced in 1 Thess 5:2-3 occur and what is the scope of it?

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here is the passage I'm referencing with some surrounding verses for context:

1 Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words. 5:1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

So, Paul was writing about the second coming of Christ here and he first focused on what will happen to believers when Christ returns. The dead in Christ will be resurrected and those who are still alive at the time will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air.

Then Paul shifts the focus to what will happen to unbelievers at that point. He talks about how they are in spiritual darkness, unlike believers who "are all children of the light". And he indicates that the day of the Lord, which is the day Christ returns, will come like a thief in the night (Jesus Himself said this as well - Matthew 24:42-44, Revelation 16:15). Which means He will come suddenly and unexpectedly, which is what Jesus Himself indicated when He said that no one knows the day or hour of His second coming (Matt 24:36,42-44; Matthew 25:13). And destruction will come upon believers at that time and it will be such that "they will not escape" it. And, based on 1 Thess 5:9, we can deduce that this destruction Paul was talking about is a result of God's wrath that believers, of course, will not have to experience.

So, it should be clear that 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 is talking about something that will happen on the day Christ returns. I think most of us here agree with that, whether we are pre-trib or post-trib and whether we are premil or amil. But, we don't all agree on what exactly Paul is saying in that passage in terms of who exactly will be experiencing the destruction resulting from God's wrath that he references there.

And this leads me to the main point that I'm intending to make in this thread. Those of us who are Amillennialists (except for some partial preterists who relate 1 Thess 4-5 to what happened in 70 AD) believe that the sudden and unexpected destruction that Paul wrote about will come upon all unbelievers in the world. That is why he said "they will not escape". None of them will. If any of them could escape it, then I don't believe he would have said "they will not escape". But, does it say that no unbelievers can escape it specifically? No. Is there any other scripture we can use to support that claim? Yes, there is.

Keep in mind that Paul is writing about the day of the Lord coming like a thief in 1 Thess 5:2-3. If the following isn't speaking of the same event, then I don't know how two scriptures can ever be related together. It's clear to me that Peter wrote about the same event here:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

When I read 2 Peter 3:10-13 and then I read 1 Thess 5:2-3, it occurs to me that it's no wonder that Paul said "they will not escape". How could anyone escape fire coming down upon the entire earth? Obviously, they couldn't. Only believers who will be changed and have immortal bodies could survive that.

So, with all of this in mind, how exactly is it possible that anyone could survive the sudden destruction resulting from God's wrath that will come down on the earth when Christ returns? Jesus Himself indicated that no unbelievers will survive that just as none survived the flood (Peter makes this same point in 2 Peter 3:5-7).

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

It seems clear to me that Paul and Peter taught the same thing that Jesus taught, which was that no unbelievers will survive His wrath when He comes again. As Jesus Himself indicated, just as "the flood came and took" all unbelievers away and killed them, "That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man". No unbelievers will survive His second coming, either. As Peter said in 2 Peter 3:13, we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth in accordance with the promise of Christ's second coming. So, why look forward to an earthly millennial kingdom in accordance with the promise of His second coming instead? Especially when scripture indicates that no mortals will survive His return?

 

[Christian Gedge]

So, why look forward to an earthly millennial kingdom in accordance with the promise of His second coming instead? Especially when scripture indicates that no mortals will survive His return?

Exactly. And yes, the destruction of the earth will be total. We are awaiting a new earth!

 

[Timtofly]

Here is the passage I'm referencing with some surrounding verses for context:

1 Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words. 5:1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

So, Paul was writing about the second coming of Christ here and he first focused on what will happen to believers when Christ returns. The dead in Christ will be resurrected and those who are still alive at the time will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air.

Then Paul shifts the focus to what will happen to unbelievers at that point. He talks about how they are in spiritual darkness, unlike believers who "are all children of the light". And he indicates that the day of the Lord, which is the day Christ returns, will come like a thief in the night (Jesus Himself said this as well - Matthew 24:42-44, Revelation 16:15). Which means He will come suddenly and unexpectedly, which is what Jesus Himself indicated when He said that no one knows the day or hour of His second coming (Matt 24:36,42-44; Matthew 25:13). And destruction will come upon believers at that time and it will be such that "they will not escape" it. And, based on 1 Thess 5:9, we can deduce that this destruction Paul was talking about is a result of God's wrath that believers, of course, will not have to experience.

So, it should be clear that 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 is talking about something that will happen on the day Christ returns. I think most of us here agree with that, whether we are pre-trib or post-trib and whether we are premil or amil. But, we don't all agree on what exactly Paul is saying in that passage in terms of who exactly will be experiencing the destruction resulting from God's wrath that he references there.

And this leads me to the main point that I'm intending to make in this thread. Those of us who are Amillennialists (except for some partial preterists who relate 1 Thess 4-5 to what happened in 70 AD) believe that the sudden and unexpected destruction that Paul wrote about will come upon all unbelievers in the world. That is why he said "they will not escape". None of them will. If any of them could escape it, then I don't believe he would have said "they will not escape". But, does it say that no unbelievers can escape it specifically? No. Is there any other scripture we can use to support that claim? Yes, there is.

Keep in mind that Paul is writing about the day of the Lord coming like a thief in 1 Thess 5:2-3. If the following isn't speaking of the same event, then I don't know how two scriptures can ever be related together. It's clear to me that Peter wrote about the same event here:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

When I read 2 Peter 3:10-13 and then I read 1 Thess 5:2-3, it occurs to me that it's no wonder that Paul said "they will not escape". How could anyone escape fire coming down upon the entire earth? Obviously, they couldn't. Only believers who will be changed and have immortal bodies could survive that.

So, with all of this in mind, how exactly is it possible that anyone could survive the sudden destruction resulting from God's wrath that will come down on the earth when Christ returns? Jesus Himself indicated that no unbelievers will survive that just as none survived the flood (Peter makes this same point in 2 Peter 3:5-7).

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

It seems clear to me that Paul and Peter taught the same thing that Jesus taught, which was that no unbelievers will survive His wrath when He comes again. As Jesus Himself indicated, just as "the flood came and took" all unbelievers away and killed them, "That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man". No unbelievers will survive His second coming, either. As Peter said in 2 Peter 3:13, we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth in accordance with the promise of Christ's second coming. So, why look forward to an earthly millennial kingdom in accordance with the promise of His second coming instead? Especially when scripture indicates that no mortals will survive His return?

The point you are missing is the time that they are allowed to escape.

Even every single person on earth will ask how can they escape. If they are all dead how can they ask that question?

You give them no time to respond, and that is a direct contradiction to clear Scripture.

You are correct that no one will escape. You are so far off on your timing it is not even funny. It is sad really.

"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Your interpretation is wrong, because all these people are still alive and much later gather at Armageddon under the command of Satan, the beast, and the FP.

Of course you will offer the excuse that John is in error and he jumbled up the chapters and they are not in chronological order. You would be dead wrong. You refuse to see that the Second Coming in fire is not the same engagement as in Revelation 19. But specifics only suit Amil when necessary.

In Revelation 19, they are gathered together for battle. In Revelation 6, they are taken by surprise and hiding. Those points don't matter to Amil one bit. It is all relative if the specifics are missing. Amil need to be idealistic and keep an open mind. But when the specifics contradict their point, they call that nonsense. Now they just call Scripture nonsense, and wave Scripture away as if it were just an annoying fly.

 

[jeffweeder]

The point you are missing is the time that they are allowed to escape.

Even every single person on earth will ask how can they escape. If they are all dead how can they ask that question?

You give them no time to respond, and that is a direct contradiction to clear Scripture.

You are correct that no one will escape. You are so far off on your timing it is not even funny. It is sad really.

"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Your interpretation is wrong, because all these people are still alive and much later gather at Armageddon under the command of Satan, the beast, and the FP.

Of course you will offer the excuse that John is in error and he jumbled up the chapters and they are not in chronological order. You would be dead wrong. You refuse to see that the Second Coming in fire is not the same engagement as in Revelation 19. But specifics only suit Amil when necessary.

In Revelation 19, they are gathered together for battle. In Revelation 6, they are taken by surprise and hiding. Those points don't matter to Amil one bit. It is all relative if the specifics are missing. Amil need to be idealistic and keep an open mind. But when the specifics contradict their point, they call that nonsense. Now they just call Scripture nonsense, and wave Scripture away as if it were just an annoying fly.

Speaking of flies, I am back with the scriptures.

How will every single person on earth ask how they will escape?
That day catches all unbelievers and even some so called believers unawares.

Matt 24
50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour of which he is not aware, 51 and will cut him in two and put him with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and grinding of teeth.

People have had their whole lives (plenty of time) to respond.
Just before the Lords coming God sends a deluding influence upon those who have failed to respond to him during their life. He does not send out another warning as you are proposing.



2Thess 2
7 For the mystery of lawlessness [rebellion against divine authority and the coming reign of lawlessness] is already at work; [but it is restrained] only until he who now restrains it is taken out of the way.

8 Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming.

9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them].

11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The point you are missing is the time that they are allowed to escape.

What are you talking about? Paul said "they will not escape". How can they have time to be allowed to escape when Paul said "they will not escape"? Do you not think that Paul knew what he was talking about?

Even every single person on earth will ask how can they escape. If they are all dead how can they ask that question?

Where are you coming up with this? Did you notice how I backed up my understanding of what will happen with scripture? Why do you never do that? Is it because you have no scripture to back up your opinions? I believe so.

You give them no time to respond, and that is a direct contradiction to clear Scripture.

LOL. And what clear scripture is that? Again, Paul said "they will not escape" but here you are apparently saying that some will escape, which contradicts what Paul said. And, of course, we're talking about unbelievers here. Believers obviously don't need to worry about escaping God's wrath as His wrath is never directed towards believers. Believers will be changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air at that point.

You are correct that no one will escape.

Are you having trouble making up your mind as to what you believe or what?

You are so far off on your timing it is not even funny. It is sad really.

LOL. "My" timing is based on what Jesus said and what Paul and Peter wrote. They said the destruction will come suddenly and unexpectedly. Do you not accept what they taught about that?

"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Your interpretation is wrong, because all these people are still alive and much later gather at Armageddon under the command of Satan, the beast, and the FP.

This is a prime example of why interpreting all of the book of Revelation in chronological order is a huge mistake. It results in the kind of nonsense that you believe in. You add time to events that is not there. You miss the parallel accounts of events in the book and you end up interpreting the entire book incorrectly because of it.

Of course you will offer the excuse that John is in error and he jumbled up the chapters and they are not in chronological order.

I would never say that John is in error. He wasn't. You are in error and everyone here knows it. NO ONE here agrees with your interpretation of the book. Not a single person. You get your interpretations from your own imagination.

You would be dead wrong. You refuse to see that the Second Coming in fire is not the same engagement as in Revelation 19. But specifics only suit Amil when necessary.

LOL. You are hilarious. At the sixth seal the wrath of the Lamb is already at hand but you think years will go by before it actually comes down. Your view is just complete nonsense.

In Revelation 19, they are gathered together for battle. In Revelation 6, they are taken by surprise and hiding. Those points don't matter to Amil one bit. It is all relative if the specifics are missing. Amil need to be idealistic and keep an open mind. But when the specifics contradict their point, they call that nonsense. Now they just call Scripture nonsense, and wave Scripture away as if it were just an annoying fly.

I wave your opinions away as if they were an annoying fly because your view makes no sense whatsoever. And that will continue to be the case as long as you insist on believing that everything written in the book happens in chronological order from beginning to end.

As usual, you did not address anything I said in the original post specifically. What is your explanation for believing that we are supposed to be looking forward to an earthly millennial kingdom in accordance with the promise of Christ's second coming when Peter said we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth in accordance with His second coming (2 Peter 3:13)? Why do you never want to address things like this?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Speaking of flies, I am back with the scriptures.

How will every single person on earth ask how they will escape?
That day catches all unbelievers and even some so called believers unawares.

Matt 24
50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour of which he is not aware, 51 and will cut him in two and put him with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and grinding of teeth.

People have had their whole lives (plenty of time) to respond.
Just before the Lords coming God sends a deluding influence upon those who have failed to respond to him during their life. He does not send out another warning as you are proposing.



2Thess 2
7 For the mystery of lawlessness [rebellion against divine authority and the coming reign of lawlessness] is already at work; [but it is restrained] only until he who now restrains it is taken out of the way.

8 Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming.

9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them].

11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.

Exactly. This idea that people will get a second chance at salvation even after Christ descends from heaven is a lie that Satan wants people to believe so that they put off repenting of their sins. That can make people think that they can do that at some later time because they can wait and do so when He comes. No, that is not what scripture teaches at all. Today is the day of salvation. Once He comes, it will be too late. He will immediately take vengeance on all of His enemies at that point.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

One reason I had for creating this thread is that I've seen some people who see 1 Thess 5:2-3 as occurring on the day Christ returns, but somehow see 2 Peter 3:10-12 as occurring much later (like, say 1000+ years later). Yet, it's clear that they are each speaking of the same event. So, if anyone is reading this and has the view that 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 are not speaking of the same event, I'd like to get your thoughts on what I said in the original post of this thread.

 

[ScottA]

Here is the passage I'm referencing with some surrounding verses for context:

1 Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words. 5:1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

So, Paul was writing about the second coming of Christ here and he first focused on what will happen to believers when Christ returns. The dead in Christ will be resurrected and those who are still alive at the time will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air.

Then Paul shifts the focus to what will happen to unbelievers at that point. He talks about how they are in spiritual darkness, unlike believers who "are all children of the light". And he indicates that the day of the Lord, which is the day Christ returns, will come like a thief in the night (Jesus Himself said this as well - Matthew 24:42-44, Revelation 16:15). Which means He will come suddenly and unexpectedly, which is what Jesus Himself indicated when He said that no one knows the day or hour of His second coming (Matt 24:36,42-44; Matthew 25:13). And destruction will come upon believers at that time and it will be such that "they will not escape" it. And, based on 1 Thess 5:9, we can deduce that this destruction Paul was talking about is a result of God's wrath that believers, of course, will not have to experience.

So, it should be clear that 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 is talking about something that will happen on the day Christ returns. I think most of us here agree with that, whether we are pre-trib or post-trib and whether we are premil or amil. But, we don't all agree on what exactly Paul is saying in that passage in terms of who exactly will be experiencing the destruction resulting from God's wrath that he references there.

And this leads me to the main point that I'm intending to make in this thread. Those of us who are Amillennialists (except for some partial preterists who relate 1 Thess 4-5 to what happened in 70 AD) believe that the sudden and unexpected destruction that Paul wrote about will come upon all unbelievers in the world. That is why he said "they will not escape". None of them will. If any of them could escape it, then I don't believe he would have said "they will not escape". But, does it say that no unbelievers can escape it specifically? No. Is there any other scripture we can use to support that claim? Yes, there is.

Keep in mind that Paul is writing about the day of the Lord coming like a thief in 1 Thess 5:2-3. If the following isn't speaking of the same event, then I don't know how two scriptures can ever be related together. It's clear to me that Peter wrote about the same event here:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

When I read 2 Peter 3:10-13 and then I read 1 Thess 5:2-3, it occurs to me that it's no wonder that Paul said "they will not escape". How could anyone escape fire coming down upon the entire earth? Obviously, they couldn't. Only believers who will be changed and have immortal bodies could survive that.

So, with all of this in mind, how exactly is it possible that anyone could survive the sudden destruction resulting from God's wrath that will come down on the earth when Christ returns? Jesus Himself indicated that no unbelievers will survive that just as none survived the flood (Peter makes this same point in 2 Peter 3:5-7).

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

It seems clear to me that Paul and Peter taught the same thing that Jesus taught, which was that no unbelievers will survive His wrath when He comes again. As Jesus Himself indicated, just as "the flood came and took" all unbelievers away and killed them, "That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man". No unbelievers will survive His second coming, either. As Peter said in 2 Peter 3:13, we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth in accordance with the promise of Christ's second coming. So, why look forward to an earthly millennial kingdom in accordance with the promise of His second coming instead? Especially when scripture indicates that no mortals will survive His return?

These things have not been understood for thousands of years, and yet "all truth" has been promised very near the end, by the leading of the Holy Spirit, and by and when the seventh angel is about to sound...the mystery of God would be finished.

It is in the spirit of the latter that I answer your question:

All die by the tribulations of this world--even from the beginning unto the end. Wherein the statement and promise to those who believe in Jesus who came according to the scriptures bringing the power of salvation with Him, that they would be saved, and yes, though they die, they shall surely live. In which case I have covered it all from beginning to end, which is according to the clarification by Paul in light of all that to that time had been revealed, saying, "but each one in his own order."

Most, not seeing how such a scenario might possibly play out, do reject such a statement, though I have said nothing that contradicts what is written, but rather reconciled what is written in accordance with the nature of God, who "is the same yesterday, today, and forever." Most don't even get so far as to say or ask "How?" before rejecting such a foreign assertion. Which of course is the common and predictable response established down through the history of Godly revelations...and this one is no different. Jesus even said it would not be what was expected--yet in complete disregard, most still expect what they expect, rather than even hearing about what they do not expect.

So--what should one do when the promised news comes not according to what they expect? Keep believing what they expect? Which is worse, to believe a lie, or believe what one expects against the word from Jesus saying that His return would not be what you expect? Neither! So, what, just categorically write off any hope of "all truth" coming as promised? Should we just take our expected beliefs to the grave? Should we be so foolish? Or should we expect news of the unexpected to come right on time?

For those who have an ear for it...the fire spoken of by Peter is that of the Holy Spirit--unseen holy fire...which begins when, in the future? No, for it is written, it began and was confirmed by Peter as beginning at Pentecost.

But hey, the rest of you, you who prefer to expect what you expect-- see you on the other side.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

These things have not been understood for thousands of years, and yet "all truth" has been promised very near the end, by the leading of the Holy Spirit, and by and when the seventh angel is about to sound...the mystery of God would be finished.

It is in the spirit of the latter that I answer your question:

All die by the tribulations of this world--even from the beginning unto the end. Wherein the statement and promise to those who believe in Jesus who came according to the scriptures bringing the power of salvation with Him, that they would be saved, and yes, though they die, they shall surely live. In which case I have covered it all from beginning to end, which is according to the clarification by Paul in light of all that to that time had been revealed, saying, "but each one in his own order."

Most, not seeing how do reject such a statement, though I have said nothing that contradicts what is written, but rather reconciles what is written in accordance with the nature of God, who "is the same yesterday, today, and forever." Most don't even get so far as to say or ask "How?" before rejecting such a foreign assertion. Which of course is the common and predictable response established down through the history of Godly revelations...and this one is no different. Jesus even said it would not be what was expected--yet in complete disregard, most still expect what they expect, rather than even hearing what they do not expect.

So--what should one do when the promised news comes not according to what they expect? Keep believing what they expect? Which is worse, to believe a lie, or believe what one expects against the word from Jesus saying that His return would not be what you expect? Neither! So, what, just categorically write off any hope of "all truth" coming as promised? Should we just take our expected beliefs to the grave? Should we be so foolish? Or should we expect news of the unexpected to come right on time?

For those who have an ear for it...the fire spoken of by Peter is that of the Holy Spirit--unseen holy fire...which begins when, in the future? No, for it is written, it began and was confirmed by Peter as beginning at Pentecost.

But hey, the rest of you, you who prefer to expect what you expect-- see you on the other side.

You didn't address anything I said in my original post. Why not? I know you have a different view, but you can't bother to respond specifically to anything I said?

How exactly does anything you're saying here address what Paul wrote in 1 Thess 5:2-3 or what Peter wrote in 2 Peter 3:10-12?

 

[ScottA]

You didn't address anything I said in my original post. Why not? I know you have a different view, but you can't bother to respond specifically to anything I said?

How exactly does anything you're saying here address what Paul wrote in 1 Thess 5:2-3 or what Peter wrote in 2 Peter 3:10-12?

I guess you missed it.

I said just what Paul said: The times that both he and Peter described do not come when one would "expect" as Jesus clarified, "but each one in his own order."

What is missing in that is that "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes."...meaning "The kingdom of God does not come with observation." Yet even though all of this is written, most still expect to see it visibly in the world.

To the contrary, being events of God and heaven, these things are not visible in the world, but occur as stated in heaven. Thus, yes, Jesus clarified, saying, "the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”

 

[Charlie24]

One reason I had for creating this thread is that I've seen some people who see 1 Thess 5:2-3 as occurring on the day Christ returns, but somehow see 2 Peter 3:10-12 as occurring much later (like, say 1000+ years later). Yet, it's clear that they are each speaking of the same event. So, if anyone is reading this and has the view that 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 are not speaking of the same event, I'd like to get your thoughts on what I said in the original post of this thread.

Since you put it like that, I will comment in discussion, but not argument.

Yes, the 2 events that Paul and Peter speak of are the same.

The reason I'm commenting is that I believe you want to understand the other side, seeing that you and I disagree on several things concerning the Day of the Lord. So I will try to set the framework of how I see it for you to understand why we disagree.

It is impossible for me to show you all of this in just a few posts, but as long as we don't begin to argue, we can take as far as you like.

The Day of the Lord is not confined to the Second Coming. It is a vast time period that begins with the 7 year Tribulation and carries on through the 1000 years Millennial Reign. Let me show you the dividing distinctions used by Paul and Peter.

In Philippians Paul uses the term "the Day of Christ" 3 times, In 1 Thes. he uses the term, "the Day of the Lord," In 2 Peter, Peter uses the term, "the Day of the Lord," and in 2 Peter 3:12 he uses the term "the Day of God."

These are not one in the same, they are distinctions referring to particular times in the vast time period of the term, "the Day of the Lord," and beyond.

The "Day of Christ" is referring to the rapture, a separate event from the Second Coming.

The "Day of the Lord" as I have said, is the the vast time period immediately following the rapture, which includes the 7 year Tribulation, the Second Coming, and the Millennial Reign of Christ.

The "Day of God" is referring to the coming of the perfect earth, the Perfect Age that will last for eternity.

Now, in 1 Thes. 4:13-18 Paul is referring to the rapture, the Day of Christ, even though he does not mention a "Day," then beginning in chapter 5, he turns to the "Day of the Lord." Let me show you the further distinctions that bear this out.

Notice in 1 Thes. 5:3, Paul says "they," but in vs 4 he says "you." He is speaking of 2 different groups of people. The first group (you) is of course the believers at the Church of Thessalonica. The second group "they" are in fact the nation of Israel.

In the next post I will show you from Scripture how I know it is Israel. This is enough for now.

 

[Timtofly]

How will every single person on earth ask how they will escape?
That day catches all unbelievers and even some so called believers unawares.

Being unaware is one thing.

Stating a fact in a very pertinent rhetorical question is another thing altogether.

Why are you asking: how can they not be aware?, no?

 

[Timtofly]

What are you talking about? Paul said "they will not escape". How can they have time to be allowed to escape when Paul said "they will not escape"? Do you not think that Paul knew what he was talking about?


Where are you coming up with this? Did you notice how I backed up my understanding of what will happen with scripture? Why do you never do that? Is it because you have no scripture to back up your opinions? I believe so.


LOL. And what clear scripture is that? Again, Paul said "they will not escape" but here you are apparently saying that some will escape, which contradicts what Paul said. And, of course, we're talking about unbelievers here. Believers obviously don't need to worry about escaping God's wrath as His wrath is never directed towards believers. Believers will be changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air at that point.


Are you having trouble making up your mind as to what you believe or what?


LOL. "My" timing is based on what Jesus said and what Paul and Peter wrote. They said the destruction will come suddenly and unexpectedly. Do you not accept what they taught about that?


This is a prime example of why interpreting all of the book of Revelation in chronological order is a huge mistake. It results in the kind of nonsense that you believe in. You add time to events that is not there. You miss the parallel accounts of events in the book and you end up interpreting the entire book incorrectly because of it.


I would never say that John is in error. He wasn't. You are in error and everyone here knows it. NO ONE here agrees with your interpretation of the book. Not a single person. You get your interpretations from your own imagination.


LOL. You are hilarious. At the sixth seal the wrath of the Lamb is already at hand but you think years will go by before it actually comes down. Your view is just complete nonsense.


I wave your opinions away as if they were an annoying fly because your view makes no sense whatsoever. And that will continue to be the case as long as you insist on believing that everything written in the book happens in chronological order from beginning to end.

As usual, you did not address anything I said in the original post specifically. What is your explanation for believing that we are supposed to be looking forward to an earthly millennial kingdom in accordance with the promise of Christ's second coming when Peter said we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth in accordance with His second coming (2 Peter 3:13)? Why do you never want to address things like this?

Do you think they are destroyed before they ask the question, or after?

"And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I guess you missed it.

I said just what Paul said: The times that both he and Peter described do not come when one would "expect" as Jesus clarified, "but each one in his own order."

When it says "each one ins his own order" it's talking about the fact that Christ was the first to rise from the dead unto bodily immortality. Then, when He comes again in the future, those who belong to Him will be resurrected unto bodily immortality. That is the order.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This indicates that all of the dead in Christ will be resurrected from the dead "when he comes". That means they will all be raised from the dead AT THE SAME TIME. Other passages like 1 Thess 4:14-17 confirm that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Since you put it like that, I will comment in discussion, but not argument.

Yes, the 2 events that Paul and Peter speak of are the same.

The reason I'm commenting is that I believe you want to understand the other side, seeing that you and I disagree on several things concerning the Day of the Lord. So I will try to set the framework of how I see it for you to understand why we disagree.

It is impossible for me to show you all of this in just a few posts, but as long as we don't begin to argue, we can take as far as you like.

How can we have a discussion about this if you won't allow me to express any disagreement with what you're saying? We can disagree respectfully, right?

The Day of the Lord is not confined to the Second Coming. It is a vast time period that begins with the 7 year Tribulation and carries on through the 1000 years Millennial Reign. Let me show you the dividing distinctions used by Paul and Peter.

In Philippians Paul uses the term "the Day of Christ" 3 times, In 1 Thes. he uses the term, "the Day of the Lord," In 2 Peter, Peter uses the term, "the Day of the Lord," and in 2 Peter 3:12 he uses the term "the Day of God."

These are not one in the same, they are distinctions referring to particular times in the vast time period of the term, "the Day of the Lord," and beyond.

I disagree with this. Those terms all mean the same thing. I see no basis for thinking otherwise.

The "Day of Christ" is referring to the rapture, a separate event from the Second Coming.

How do you come to this conclusion? Note that while the phrase "the day of Christ" is used in the KJV in 2 Thess 2:2, other translations like the NIV called it "the day of the Lord". So, there really is no basis for differentiating between the day of Christ and the day of the Lord.

The "Day of the Lord" as I have said, is the the vast time period immediately following the rapture, which includes the 7 year Tribulation, the Second Coming, and the Millennial Reign of Christ.

How do you come to this conclusion? If the day of the Lord extends beyond His return, then when do you believe the destruction described in 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 will occur in relation to Christ's return (on the day He returns, 1000+ years later or some other time)?

The "Day of God" is referring to the coming of the perfect earth, the Perfect Age that will last for eternity.

Again, how do you come to this conclusion that "the day of God" is supposed to be understood as something different than the day of the Lord?

Now, in 1 Thes. 4:13-18 Paul is referring to the rapture, the Day of Christ, even though he does not mention a "Day," then beginning in chapter 5, he turns to the "Day of the Lord."

I disagree. I see no basis for thinking he completely changes the topic in 1 Thess 5. I believe it was wrong to put a chapter break there.

Let me show you the further distinctions that bear this out.

Notice in 1 Thes. 5:3, Paul says "they," but in vs 4 he says "you." He is speaking of 2 different groups of people.

I don't see that as being a reason to see it as 2 completely separate events. It's one event (the second coming of Christ) where Paul first talks about what will happen to believers and then talks about what will happen to unbelievers on that day.

The first group (you) is of course the believers at the Church of Thessalonica. The second group "they" are in fact the nation of Israel.

In the next post I will show you from Scripture how I know it is Israel. This is enough for now.

I again disagree, but I'll let you explain how you come to that conclusion. When do you believe the sudden destruction Paul references will come down on the nation of Israel? And do you see that destruction being by way of fire since you agree that Peter wrote about the same thing in 2 Peter 3:10-12?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you think they are destroyed before they ask the question, or after?

"And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

LOL. Obviously, it would be after. Would be pretty hard for them to ask the question when they are dead, right? LOL.

But, it will be very shortly after. Why would it say "the great day of his wrath is come" if His wrath was not at hand and about to come down at that point?

 

[GRACE ambassador]

there really is no basis for differentiating between the day of Christ and the day of the Lord.

Or, maybe there is?:

How do you come to this conclusion that "the day of God" is supposed to be understood as something different than the day of the Lord?

The Day Of Christ vs Day of LORD vs Day of God

We can disagree respectfully, right?

Amen!

Extra Bonus: The Day Of The LORD - What Is It?

 

[ScottA]

When it says "each one ins his own order" it's talking about the fact that Christ was the first to rise from the dead unto bodily immortality. Then, when He comes again in the future, those who belong to Him will be resurrected unto bodily immortality. That is the order.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This indicates that all of the dead in Christ will be resurrected from the dead "when he comes". That means they will all be raised from the dead AT THE SAME TIME. Other passages like 1 Thess 4:14-17 confirm that.

So be it. Let that be your testimony, just as you have already stated it.

As for me, I testify to the truth that I am even now "in Christ" and have been since I first opened the door to Him, in whom I even now am forever with the Lord--though I die, I shall live! Thus, fulfilling in me what is written, saying, "but each one in his own order."

 

[Charlie24]

How can we have a discussion about this if you won't allow me to express any disagreement with what you're saying? We can disagree respectfully, right?


I disagree with this. Those terms all mean the same thing. I see no basis for thinking otherwise.


How do you come to this conclusion? Note that while the phrase "the day of Christ" is used in the KJV in 2 Thess 2:2, other translations like the NIV called it "the day of the Lord". So, there really is no basis for differentiating between the day of Christ and the day of the Lord.


How do you come to this conclusion? If the day of the Lord extends beyond His return, then when do you believe the destruction described in 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 will occur in relation to Christ's return (on the day He returns, 1000+ years later or some other time)?


Again, how do you come to this conclusion that "the day of God" is supposed to be understood as something different than the day of the Lord?


I disagree. I see no basis for thinking he completely changes the topic in 1 Thess 5. I believe it was wrong to put a chapter break there.


I don't see that as being a reason to see it as 2 completely separate events. It's one event (the second coming of Christ) where Paul first talks about what will happen to believers and then talks about what will happen to unbelievers on that day.


I again disagree, but I'll let you explain how you come to that conclusion. When do you believe the sudden destruction Paul references will come down on the nation of Israel? And do you see that destruction being by way of fire since you agree that Peter wrote about the same thing in 2 Peter 3:10-12?

OF course we can respectfully disagree, or I'm not in the conversation.

You said in your post that you were interested to see if anyone seen it a different way. I'm going to show you that different way. All of us who believe in the rapture see it differently, but we all agree the resurrection/rapture Paul spoke of is a different coming of the Lord that the "Coming as a thief in the night/the Second Coming."

It should be obvious the the Bible student that the main purpose of the Great Tribulation is to bring Israel to Christ. Paul said, "all of Israel shall be saved." Zechariah tells us that when Israel sees Him (the Second Coming) there will be great mourning in all the land (Israel), as the mourning of one who has lost their firstborn. Each tribe of Israel will mourn separately and the mourning will be great.

Zechariah goes on to tell us that 2/3 of Israel will be killed, and 1/3 will pass through the fire, these are ones who will see with their own eyes that the Man Jesus of Nazareth was and is their Messiah.

The Scripture plainly tells us that the anti-christ will be destroyed at His coming. Zechariah tells us what the anti-christ is doing when this happens.

The anti-christ is often referred to a having the same characteristics as Adolf Hitler, a desire to rule the world, but a super natural passion to rid the world of the Jews. This was the work of Satan to wipe out the Jews. The anti-christ will attempt to do the same.

Satan knows the Scripture very well, he knows the truth of it all, as we down here argue over it. If Satan can cause just one Biblical prophecy to fall to the ground, if he can stop it from becoming reality, he has made God a liar and he has won the victory. This is where he places the most effort against God, proving Him wrong. And this effort is mainly fought over God's chosen, Israel.

Satan knew in the 1930's that the time was drawing near for the prophecy to be fulfilled for Israel to be regathered in the Holy Land. He found a madman named Adolf Hitler to fight this prophecy. Hitler had a heart to take over the world, but Satan placed a passion in his heart to destroy the Jews to keep the regathering of Israel from taking place. Again, Satan tried to prove God a liar.

If we don't understand that all end time prophecies directly involves Israel, the rest of the world indirectly and that Satan's efforts are toward that nation, we will fail to understand those prophecies in its true context.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So be it. Let that be your testimony, just as you have already stated it.

As for me, I testify to the truth that I am even now "in Christ" and have been since I first opened the door to Him, in whom I even now am forever with the Lord--though I die, I shall live! Thus, fulfilling in me what is written, saying, "but each one in his own order."

You're ignoring the order that Paul actually stated, which is Christ first (happened long ago, obviously) and next in order are those who belong to Him when He comes again.

The following passage also makes it very clear that all of the dead in Christ will be resurrected AT THE SAME TIME.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

How do you reconcile your view with what Paul taught here? He indicates here very clearly that one day "the Lord himself will come down from heaven" and then "the dead in Christ will rise first". That means the dead in Christ will be resurrected all at the same time when the Lord descends from heaven. After the dead in Christ rise then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air. Very simple.