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Where do I stand..

Discussion in 'NonChristian Help Forum' started by transparent_opacity, Sep 25, 2007.

  1. Tyrel

    Tyrel New Member

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    (kriss;19627)
    Well we were pretty close BT untill your last sentence:)I do agree that the unforgivable sin of blasphemy of the Holy is not somthing we can do yet. It can only be commited one time. That time is when those put on trial by Antichristare not to premeditate what they will say. As the holy Ghost(spirit) will come upon you and speak through you (just like in Acts) if you of your own free will deny the spirit of God to speak through you it is unforgivable (though I doubt it will ever happen)Mar 13:11 But when they shall lead [you], and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
    Well, I am glad we at least MOSTLY agree [​IMG]Though, if I may, I think that the passage needs to be taken in context. In the passage, what I see, is that the Pharisee's were claiming that it was by Belial or Beelzebub that Jesus was casting out evil spirits and healing the sick. If a gentile had said this, they would not have been rebuked as harshly. What Jesus said, was for them. He explained that they who speak blasphemous things concerning him, would be forgiven. However, those who blaspheme the spirit, it will not be forgiven them. Obviously the direct context indicates that it is through the admision of the mouth that the blasphemy is committed. However, obviously, it is deeper than this. In Hebrews we see that the same unforgivable sin, manifests in a different way."It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."~Hebrews 6:4-6Also see;"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."~Hebrews 10:26-31Now, what does this mean? For me, I go straight back to the original passage in Mark." 'I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.' He said this because they were saying, 'He has an evil spirit.' "~Mark 3:28-30Now, what does the word Eternal mean? Eternal is not the same as infinite. When one says that God lives Eternally, this does not mean that he lives forever. {well, it might, but that's not what it means}. Infinitely implies parameters. So, for example [-∞, +3] contains within it an infinite amount of possible values. In fact, [0,1] contains an infinite amount of particular values. So, for example, when one says that God is infinite, they mean that he has no 'end'. However, Eternity is beyond time. Eternal is 'beyond and above' time. It doesn't even bring that parameter into the equation. Eternal means 'what IS'. There is no time in an Eternal state. Forgive me if this is where it becomes a tad more difficult to follow, but; Combining this passage with what we know about Grace, and with the passages from Hebrews, It seems to indicate that, on an Eternal level, a sin is. Not, a sin is committed, no; "A Sin IS". This of course, comes pretty directly against the 'sin being' at one point in time, for it is an eternal sin. Though time allows for causality, which allows for sin, the sin here is not one which is committed with time meaning anything. There is no date on which somebody commits this sin. This Sin, is one of being. Let's look again at the passage in Hebrews;"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."~Hebrews 6:4-6How would this tie into the passage in Mark? Or are there multiple sins that won't be forgiven? The Passage here says that it is impossible to return. Why would that be? Because, I think, just as Belial once fell from heaven, we can fall. However, the fall from heaven, I don't believe, is one which occurred at a time. The Fall was an Eternal Fall. Just as the Sin for the fall was an Eternal sin. What was the Sin? The Sin is what Hebrews describes; that one who is in full communion with God, who has a full understanding of the goodness and riches of the Holy Spirit, and decides to defy God. This is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit in it's truest sense. It applied to the Pharisee's because they should have known better. They had the knowledge of the Spirit, and they also constituted the Church, of sorts, before Christ. Again, we may disagree about the Pharisee's, but that shouldn't make much of a difference over all in this case. The point is, they had the knowledge necessary to know better. Calling unholy the works of God, is quite a trespass, when you know better.However, as I said, because it's Eternal, it 'IS'. As such, I interpret it to be a state. If it is a State, then it is the state of being an enemy of God. Fortunately, the construct of time allows for causality. In other words, time allows a change in state. God's word is clear concerning what awaits the enemy's of God. However, the passage in Jeremiah tells us something quite important. That while God promises curses for disobedience, those promises remain in effect only while the disobedience remains in effect.Without going into too much detail, that's basically my view.However, I'm being a little unfair here. transparent_opacity, this thread was about you. I am sorry if I have taken away from that. My only advice to you, would be to continue to search for the Truth. Don't ever let up, just keep going. If you need help, you know this Forum is a resource. Ask questions. Be open minded, but be critical.That's my advice.
     
  2. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I dont disagree with much you have said but look at the verses closelyMatthew 12:31 - Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: these are obviously two different things all blasphemy of men shall be forgiven. This a complete statement in itself there is no qualifications.but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.this clearly a separate different kind of blaspheme, If all blaspheme will forgiven men this indicates something different will occur to certain men that cause them to be able to commit this unforgivable form of blaspheme. What examples do we have of communication direct from God through the Holy Ghost coming onto men??? If this can not be forgiven one must have a fuller knowledge of God and this can only come through a miracle like occurred in Acts.So then we must ask ourselves if it is prophisized that this will occur that's where we come toMar 13:11 But when they shall lead [you], and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.Isn't this exactly what happened in Acts?? The apostles didn't premeditate what they would say the Holy Ghost spoke through them.Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.Luke 12:12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.What is the evidence of the Holy Ghost??? We see it in the conception of Christ, Christ Baptism as a Dove,And we see it in Acts. Most verses concerning this term have to do with direct communication/teaching from God.Matthew 12:32 - And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.As far as we know now the only being already condemned is Satan so this form of blaspheme must be done with the full knowledge of God this can only happen when God directly communicates to us. Not through prayer or accepting of the the spirit of Christ all Christians partake of this. This is a very particular type of blaspheme. To warrant the same fate as Satan The elect are put on trial by Antichrist They are not to think about what to say because the Holy Ghost will descent upon them (just like the Aspostles) and God will speak through them teaching those hearing his Words many hearts will be turned to their Fathers and the fathers to the children. Who are the chilren us who are the fathers(plural) The true Christ or the false christ. Remember this event is right before Christs second coming Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
     
  3. Faithful

    Faithful New Member

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    (transparent_opacity;18700)
    So I'm not sure where I stand. I know I'm not full christian by any means but I'm not sure if I am at all. I believe a lot of things that the church doesn't and I disagree with quite a bit. Sure as Agreeing with Gay marrige, Abortion, ect.
    2 Thessalonians 2:10-12.10.And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11.And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12.That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.Romans 1:16-18.16.For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17.For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18.For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; All believers receive their faith by the power of Gods Spirit. But like the virgins you have to decide if you love the truth enough to walk in the Spirit continually. If you believe in Christ then you are saved. Do you study your bible and do you realise the word of God is truth and can be trusted?What do you want from your faith? Do you know all the things God has promised those who are his? Don't be quick to make decisions about yourself or others. Ask the Lord to guide you about the things your unsure of and be resolved to follow what he gives you and test it.Love Faithful.xx:)
     
  4. ps77

    ps77 New Member

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    believe a lot of things that the church doesn't and I disagree with quite a bit. Sure as Agreeing with Gay marrige, Abortion, ect.
    Which "church" you are referring to. There are many different "Christian churches" who disagree on those issues.(Nova)
    Who is Jesus to you?
    I know this may not represent what you personally believe, Nova, but this seems like the attitude of today's "body of Christ". It's all about who Jesus is to us, what we ourselves interpret the Bible to be saying. We have people who take it totally literally, people who are in between, and people who take it figuratively, and metaphorically, etc. And we all call ourselves "Christians". It seems like I could get what I want from the Bible and no one could argue either way. Some would agree with me, some would partially agree, and some would disagree, but how do we know who's right? Who's got it right on, and who's the one blinded? And what is "full Christian". Who are the "real" christians? If we all have such differing ideas, and conflicting conflictions, then who is real, and who is fake? I have always been under the impression that a "real Christian" was one who strived to live as Christ did while he was on Earth. and follow God. I suppose "following God" has many definitions depending on who you are, and what it actually means in our own lives.
    There is no such thing as a sin chart. All sins are equal in the eyes of God.
    I wouldn't say all sins are equal. Some are worse than others, I think what you mean. or are trying to say, is that sin, no matter what degree of sin, if there is a rejection of God going on, you aren't going to heaven either way. Biblical Tetragramaton has answered this way better than I can.(Wise Haven)
    Superjag: I have always had a problem conceptualizing the Trinity. Surely committing blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is the same as blasphemy against God and Jesus?
    I never understood that. The verse that says blasphemy against the holy spirit cannot be forgiven in this life, or the next (what's that about? another chance?). I figured that your sins can be forgiven no matter what. I was under the impression that all you have to do is ask for forgiveness? It doesn't make sense to me, at all.(Biblical Tetragramaton)
    I have seen this false teaching of "all sins are equal" destroy lives before my very eyes.
    This is a sad truth. How many lives are destroyed by false teaching. How many people reject God, because of false teaching. How many people live under false teaching. Although, when does it get blatantly obvious that someone is presenting a false idea. If it is their own opinions of their own interpretation of the Bible, then it can be flawed. Although, isn't that what we all do? Read the Bible and then try and apply it to our own lives, and see for ourselves what it means in our own lives, and then try and apply it to others lives? Some false teaching is blatant. Although, some people believe it, and it amazes me. Although there are a lot of grey areas in the "church". There are a lot of conflicting views inside of Christianity. So, in the end, someone has to be right don't they? Who is it? How do we know? Because once we are convinced of something, we become one of many, and then there are still many others who are convinced of something totally different. Are we all reading the same bible?
     
  5. ps77

    ps77 New Member

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    (Biblical Tetragramaton)
    Well, I am glad we at least MOSTLY agree
    This brings up my biggest problem with the church, and the thing I understand the least about the church. The fact that we are not in full agreement. A lot of us believe different things, but we are reading the same Bible. I was always taught that the Bible was the infallible, inerrant, literal word of God. But as I became older, my personal view on that changed. I mean, if the bible really was the infallible, inerrant, literal word of God, would there still be all this confusion, all this disagreement. It's great that some of us can get along. Most of us can. It's just that if we're all reading the same book, that is supposed to be literal, infallible and inerrant, how can we get so many different messages from it. Conflicting messages. Sure we can have our small debates and disagreements about doctrine. But when it becomes so huge we go and create another sect, another denomination of Christianity. Is it even about whos right, and whos wrong, and what the universal definition of each and every detail of it is? Is everything universal? I don't know. With each answer comes many more questions. The more I learn, the less I know. It's the paradoxial truth of my search.
     
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