Where is hell? Where is heaven?

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amadeus

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Are not many people today effectively dead and in the grave in the eyes of God? All of us were there, but Jesus was sent into this place of death, this grave, this hell, this prison of ours and he preached to us. Some of us listened and are listening. Some of us have done something right with what we heard.

Jesus has visited me in my hell. He is helping me replace hell with heaven. Is he similarly helping you?
 

Enoch111

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Metaphorical hells and heavens are not a substitute for the actual places which God has created. Heaven is the third heaven, in which Paradise and the Heavenly Sanctuary are located, along with the thrones of God and Christ. All the saints who have passed on are now in Heaven, beginning with Abel. See Hebrews 12.

The Lake of Fire is a literal lake of fire located in Outer Darkness (outside space, which is finite). It will be occupied later.
 
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amadeus

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Metaphorical hells and heavens are not a substitute for the actual places which God has created. Heaven is the third heaven, in which Paradise and the Heavenly Sanctuary are located, along with the thrones of God and Christ. All the saints who have passed on are now in Heaven, beginning with Abel. See Hebrews 12.

The Lake of Fire is a literal lake of fire located in Outer Darkness (outside space, which is finite). It will be occupied later.
And the place people we see are in now without God is not a hell? David chose rather to suffer at the hands of God than at the hands of men. Is that a strange thing?

"So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? or that there be three days' pestilence in thy land? now advise, and see what answer I shall return to him that sent me.
And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let us fall now into the hand of the LORD; for his mercies are great: and let me not fall into the hand of man." II Sam 24:13-14
 

amadeus

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How 'eternal' is hell? How long is the suffering of one who dies in unbelief?

The fire that consumes and causes those within it to wail and gnash their teeth is God, Himself. He is the consuming fire [Deut 4:24, Deut 9:3, Heb 12:29]. The results of direct contact with God is shown by example with the three Hebrews thrown into the fire of Nebuchadnezzar in Dan 3: 16-27. Only the ropes binding them were burned. They nor their clothes were burned and they did not even have the smell of smoke on them after being thrown in the fire. On the other hand, the strong soldiers who threw them into the fire died because they came to close to the fire great heat. The same fire that destroys sin and sinners is embraced by true believers.

The fire that Moses saw in the bush caught his attention because it did not consume the bush [see Exodus 3:4]. The bush, of course, had not sinned.

Notice that the following verse in Ezekiel does not say that the sinning soul will live forever in torment. It says that it will die:

“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” Ezek 18:4

And Isaiah also speaks not of eternal torment but rather final and total destruction:

“They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.” Isa 26:14

And Ecclesiastes says nothing about the dead suffering pain or torment. It says that they know nothing:

“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecc 9:5

And the New Testament:

Based on the following words why should we think that unbelievers will also live?

“And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?” John 11:26

The following words the “fire is not quenched” speak of God abiding forever rather than an unending punishment.

“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” Mark 9:43-44
The worm that doesn’t die is not man or man’s soul. Does it not rather speak of the worms in the earth where we are buried that will consume our dead bodies?

Job expects another reward via a resurrection, but he knows what will happen to his body in the grave:

“And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:” Job 19:26

Isaiah also speaks of the worms:

“Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.” Isa. 14:11

“For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.” Isa 51:8

And Paul speaks of results of sin and death rather than eternal pain and suffering:

“For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 6:23

The only ones Jesus speaks of as never dying are who?

The following verse is often used by some to show an eternal torment, but considering its apparent conflict with other verses cited?

“And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” Rev 14:11

Perhaps the question to ask here is, What is the “smoke of their torment”?

“But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.” Psalm 37:20

They perish and there is nothing left of them but smoke…

David also knows what will be the final result of the wicked. He does not say that they will suffer eternal torment. He says that they perish!

“As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.” Psalm 68:2

And then again what about this which says that the devil shall be tormented forever?

“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” Rev 20:10

And then this?

“And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” Rev 20:15

Cast into the lake of fire, but this does not spell out eternal torment for them does it?

As for a place called “hell”?

“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.” Rev 20:14

Is hell something more than the grave in which our natural body of flesh is placed when it dies?


 

amadeus

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And then let us consider these verses:

"The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish." Psalm 1:4-6
 

amadeus

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@Nancy @BarnyFife @Backlit @Helen @101G @Hidden In Him @stredaleve @Heart2Soul @Mayflower @Triumph1300 and @everyone else interested...

And where is heaven, the place some sing about wanting to make it their home? Was not Jesus in heaven whilst still walking around on planet Earth as a man 2,000 years ago even before he went to the cross? If there are three heavens then what would be the difference between them? What if a shadow of the 3rd heaven is seen n the upper most level of the ark of Noah, where 8 persons rode out the storm; and the lowest level were a shadow of the 1st heaven wherein which the unclean beasts were saved from the flood? In between we see the other beasts, cleaned up already, but still beasts as in a 2nd heaven.

Do we suppose that to see God face to face we would have to attain to 3rd heaven? Surely no beasts there?

But then man born a beast even when he has been saved must have the uncleanness cleaned up and finally kill his beasts completely or...?

"I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts." Ecc 3:18

"Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:
She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table." Prov. 9:1-2

And where would one get this Wisdom?

"So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding." Prov. 2:2-6

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding" Prov 9:10
 

Renniks

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The worm that doesn’t die is not man or man’s soul. Does it not rather speak of the worms in the earth where we are buried that will consume our dead bodies?
That is a very strained and strange interpretation.
 

Renniks

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And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” Rev 14:11

Perhaps the question to ask here is, What is the “smoke of their torment”?
No the question is: why do you ignore that it says forever?
 

amadeus

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That is a very strained and strange interpretation.
Is it?

I do not stand absolutely immoveable on this ground as if my say must be the final say, but the common interpretations I have heard from others really do not fit the whole picture I have seen. I also see still as through a glass darkly which is why I do not insist it is right and all others are wrong.
 

amadeus

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No the question is: why do you ignore that it says forever?
How long is the "for ever" used in scripture? What is time to God? Even if the smoke never stops rising, why should we presume that the torment which initiated the smoke continues as well.

I am no expert in astronomy or physics, but consider that the light from the closest star other than our own sun requires, according to science, 4.3 years to reach us. This means that if something were to happen to destroy that star or to block the light from it at this very moment in time, we would not become aware of it until sometime in the year 2025. Do you understand my point?

I do not believe in unending torment for unbelievers. They are already dead and if they never receive the Life which Jesus brought they will simply never really live. All they would have is this temporary existence which men call reality, but I do doubt that it is reality. Reality is God and the things which endure always with God.
 

Enoch111

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And the place people we see are in now without God is not a hell?
Absolutely not. No matter how bad things have been at various times, or are at present, in any part of the world, they are NOT in a Hell. And if you choose to dismiss a literal Heaven and a literal Hell, you might as well dismiss the entire Bible, and the entire Gospel. Semantic games do not belong in Bible discussions.
 

amadeus

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Absolutely not. No matter how bad things have been at various times, or are at present, in any part of the world, they are NOT in a Hell. And if you choose to dismiss a literal Heaven and a literal Hell, you might as well dismiss the entire Bible, and the entire Gospel. Semantic games do not belong in Bible discussions.
I am not playing games not on a subject like this.
 

BarneyFife

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@amadeus, my friend, most people will never lay hold of this text:

Job 11
6And that he would shew thee the secrets of wisdom, that they are double to that which is! Know therefore that God exacteth of thee less than thine iniquity deserveth.
7Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection?
8It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
9The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.
10If he cut off, and shut up, or gather together, then who can hinder him?


They have their Bibles, and they presume all that can be known of Him is limited to the surface-reading of its roughly 3/4 million words.

They do not see that the Bible was written not only to give knowledge but to inspire wonder!

Empirical, existential, objective (take your pick) "reality" is subject to the whim of His lips. He is a God of order but He has made it plain that that which goeth forth from His mouth shall not return unto Him void.

I have heard great teachers and preachers actually suggest that God Himself is bound by the constraints of time--some thing of which He Himself is the very Author and Constructor. Utter balderdash! Buffalo bagels!

If He so wished, He could hit the celestial -undo- button, and erase everything that has happened for any amount of time that He deemed pleasing to Himself.

We puny humans had best get over the notion that we can make Him in our image.

Sorry. Didn't mean to digress and derail. :)

Heaven and Hell are subjects about which I am usually quite orthodox and dogmatic because of my estimation of the abundance of error taught about them, but I do recognize the value of them as abstract objects.

I'm in for it now, I suppose. :oops::eek::p
 

BarneyFife

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Absolutely not. No matter how bad things have been at various times, or are at present, in any part of the world, they are NOT in a Hell. And if you choose to dismiss a literal Heaven and a literal Hell, you might as well dismiss the entire Bible, and the entire Gospel. Semantic games do not belong in Bible discussions.
The special of the day is straw men, I see.
 
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amadeus

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Absolutely not. No matter how bad things have been at various times, or are at present, in any part of the world, they are NOT in a Hell. And if you choose to dismiss a literal Heaven and a literal Hell, you might as well dismiss the entire Bible, and the entire Gospel. Semantic games do not belong in Bible discussions.
I have to continuously interpret or have interpreted what people mean when they write things like what you have written here.
I usually know what I mean with the word, "literal" but I usually avoid using it because it confuses the issue making understanding and thereby communication difficult or impossible. However, what is impossible for God?