Where is the New Jerusalem?

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CoreIssue

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In more and more threads we are seeing people claiming the New the current Jerusalem is on this earth. Some saying it is just the current Jerusalem resurrected, glorified or just renovated.

Others try to turn it into a spiritual place, nothing physical.

So what does the Bible say?

Revelation 21
A New Heaven and a New Earth
1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
That eliminates it being on this earth and being the current Jerusalem.
2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
Clearly states it is currently in heaven.

Remember, when Christ ascended he said he was going to prepare a place for us. Which currently eliminates it has always existed.

And the wedding supper of the Lamb eliminates the idea it is already occupied.

3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
Future tense. Not a current reality.

We also see that because God and Christ will dwell with us there is no temple in the new Jerusalem. Why should there be when they are right there?
5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said,
Again, this Earth is gone and all this is on the new earth.
Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.
Spirits do not first. They do not need that river water and fruit from the trees of life in the new Jerusalem.

Glorified saints will be flesh. Flesh can enjoy food and water. Spirits do not.
Spirits do not first. They do not need that river water and fruit from the trees of life in the new Jerusalem.
7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.
First resurrection saints.
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Second resurrection damned.

It means eternal separation from God, not annihilation. Eternity in the lake. No universal salvation.

The New Jerusalem, the Bride of the Lamb
9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.
11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.
12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel.
13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west.
14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls.
16 The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia in length, and as wide and high as it is long.
17 The angel measured the wall using human measurement, and it was 144 cubits thick.
18 The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass.
19 The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald,
20 the fifth onyx, the sixth ruby, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth turquoise, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.
21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of gold, as pure as transparent glass.
22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.
24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it.
25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.
26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.
27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

A place of beauty we cannot begin to imagine.

The new earth has no sun and no moon. No night.

Gates forever open which I believe means we can enjoy and explore the universe.
 

Enoch111

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You actually think a city is being spoken of?
And do you doubt that God was speaking about an actual city, which He has personally designed and constructed supernaturally, for Himself and the children of God?
 

Enoch111

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The New Jerusalem is in the kingdom of heaven, the kingdom is within the born again Christian. It’s Spiritual. It’s where They make their abode
Why would it be described in great PHYSICAL detail if it were merely spiritual? Christians should not fantasize about things which are clearly revealed.
 
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Enoch111

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We also see that because God and Christ will dwell with us there is no temple in the new Jerusalem. Why should there be when they are right there?
This is correct and according to Scripture. Since the New Jerusalem is a cubic city, and its dimensions are that of a continent, but one which is as high as it is wide, this picture would somewhat resemble the New Jerusalem:
upload_2019-3-5_18-56-58.png

We are told that it is 1500 miles wide, 1500 miles deep, and 1500 miles high. And that it has twelve foundations and twelve gates. If one considers the cubic volume of this city, and assuming that it would have multiple layers within, it would literally accommodate countless millions of people.

The important thing to note is that it is presently occupied by all the saints who have passed on, but in the future it will be occupied by all those who are taken up to Heaven in the Resurrection/Rapture.

According to Revelation 21 the New Jerusalem:

1. Is a great city
2. Is a holy city
3. Is a glorious city made of transparent, pure, heavenly gold
4. Is a heavenly city, which descends and remains above the earth
5. Has a great and high wall made of jasper
6. The wall has 12 gates of 12 pearls with 12 angels standing guard
7. The names of the 12 tribes of Israel are on the gates
8. The wall has 12 foundations constructed of precious stones
9. The 12 foundations are named for the 12 apostles of the Lamb
10. God and the Lamb are the light of this city

NOTE: The Holy of Holies was a cube, and so is the New Jerusalem. And twelve is the number of divine government.
 
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brakelite

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In more and more threads we are seeing people claiming the New the current Jerusalem is on this earth. Some saying it is just the current Jerusalem resurrected, glorified or just renovated.

Others try to turn it into a spiritual place, nothing physical.

So what does the Bible say?

Revelation 21

That eliminates it being on this earth and being the current Jerusalem.

Clearly states it is currently in heaven.

Remember, when Christ ascended he said he was going to prepare a place for us. Which currently eliminates it has always existed.

And the wedding supper of the Lamb eliminates the idea it is already occupied.


Future tense. Not a current reality.

We also see that because God and Christ will dwell with us there is no temple in the new Jerusalem. Why should there be when they are right there?

Again, this Earth is gone and all this is on the new earth.

Spirits do not first. They do not need that river water and fruit from the trees of life in the new Jerusalem.

Glorified saints will be flesh. Flesh can enjoy food and water. Spirits do not.
Spirits do not first. They do not need that river water and fruit from the trees of life in the new Jerusalem.

First resurrection saints.

Second resurrection damned.

It means eternal separation from God, not annihilation. Eternity in the lake. No universal salvation.



A place of beauty we cannot begin to imagine.

The new earth has no sun and no moon. No night.

Gates forever open which I believe means we can enjoy and explore the universe.
Apart from the fate of the wicked,I agree. A literal City. The fire that comes down upon the wicked as they attempt to surround the city to take it over in a last ditch attempt at survival are all destroyed by the fire that comes down from heaven that engulfs the entire planet in an act of cleansing in preparation for the new earth that is recreated in our sight .
Our eternity will not be marred by the knowledge that under our feet are billions of lost people screaming constantly in despair and agony, cursing God and the redeemed and thus perpetuating sin for all eternity. It was never in the mind of God to perpetuate sin, it was to defeat it and free the universe of this rebellion forever.
 

Waiting on him

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This is correct and according to Scripture. Since the New Jerusalem is a cubic city, and its dimensions are that of a continent, but one which is as high as it is wide, this picture would somewhat resemble the New Jerusalem:

We are told that it is 1500 miles wide, 1500 miles deep, and 1500 miles high. And that it has twelve foundations and twelve gates. If one considers the cubic volume of this city, and assuming that it would have multiple layers within, it would literally accommodate countless millions of people.

The important thing to note is that it is presently occupied by all the saints who have passed on, but in the future it will be occupied by all those who are taken up to Heaven in the Resurrection/Rapture.

According to Revelation 21 the New Jerusalem:

1. Is a great city
2. Is a holy city
3. Is a glorious city made of transparent, pure, heavenly gold
4. Is a heavenly city, which descends and remains above the earth
5. Has a great and high wall made of jasper
6. The wall has 12 gates of 12 pearls with 12 angels standing guard
7. The names of the 12 tribes of Israel are on the gates
8. The wall has 12 foundations constructed of precious stones
9. The 12 foundations are named for the 12 apostles of the Lamb
10. God and the Lamb are the light of this city

NOTE: The Holy of Holies was a cube, and so is the New Jerusalem. And twelve is the number of divine government.
What do the 12 foundations attach to?
And how is the sun and moon blocked out?
 

CoreIssue

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What do the 12 foundations attach to?
And how is the sun and moon blocked out?

What do any foundations attached to? The walls and laid on a bed of earth.

There is no sun and moon so nothing to block out. The light from the father and son illuminate creation. Just as when the earth was created there was light but no sun or moon.
 

Waiting on him

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What do any foundations attached to? The walls and laid on a bed of earth.

There is no sun and moon so nothing to block out. The light from the father and son illuminate creation. Just as when the earth was created there was light but no sun or moon.
Sorry in 111s post he says it floats above the earth and BL seems to be in agreement. Maybe I misunderstood?
 
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Naomi25

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This is correct and according to Scripture. Since the New Jerusalem is a cubic city, and its dimensions are that of a continent, but one which is as high as it is wide, this picture would somewhat resemble the New Jerusalem:

We are told that it is 1500 miles wide, 1500 miles deep, and 1500 miles high. And that it has twelve foundations and twelve gates. If one considers the cubic volume of this city, and assuming that it would have multiple layers within, it would literally accommodate countless millions of people.
I think you're missing the point of the dimensions given for the 'city'. In the Greek translation it is not "miles" that is given, and thus the numbers are 12,000. It's dimensions, we are told, are "foursquare", 12,000 in length, width and height.
Where do we see those numbers in Revelation before? 4 is seen as universal...four corners of the whole earth, four winds that cover the whole earth. And 12, 12 tribes, 12 apostles, 12,000 from each tribe (in Rev 7). Then we see the number repeating in the New Jerusalem; 12 gates, 12 angels to man then. The walls are 144 cubits, which is 12 multiplied, 12 precious stones in the foundations, and so on.
Once again, we have to ask, do the numbers mean anything beyond God just having a yen for 12? You yourself answer it below...yes, they do. 12 governmental authority and completeness and perfection...all things we cannot deny about the topic at hand and the other times the number comes up.


The important thing to note is that it is presently occupied by all the saints who have passed on, but in the future it will be occupied by all those who are taken up to Heaven in the Resurrection/Rapture.
Where does scripture tell us that the New Jerusalem is currently occupied by the saints who have passed on?

NOTE: The Holy of Holies was a cube, and so is the New Jerusalem. And twelve is the number of divine government.

I find this very interesting. After all the times you have rather vehemently denied that numbers have symbolic meaning, here you are claiming that 12 "is the number of divine government".
 

CoreIssue

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I think you're missing the point of the dimensions given for the 'city'. In the Greek translation it is not "miles" that is given, and thus the numbers are 12,000. It's dimensions, we are told, are "foursquare", 12,000 in length, width and height.
Where do we see those numbers in Revelation before? 4 is seen as universal...four corners of the whole earth, four winds that cover the whole earth. And 12, 12 tribes, 12 apostles, 12,000 from each tribe (in Rev 7). Then we see the number repeating in the New Jerusalem; 12 gates, 12 angels to man then. The walls are 144 cubits, which is 12 multiplied, 12 precious stones in the foundations, and so on.
Once again, we have to ask, do the numbers mean anything beyond God just having a yen for 12? You yourself answer it below...yes, they do. 12 governmental authority and completeness and perfection...all things we cannot deny about the topic at hand and the other times the number comes up.

Where does scripture tell us that the New Jerusalem is currently occupied by the saints who have passed on?

I find this very interesting. After all the times you have rather vehemently denied that numbers have symbolic meaning, here you are claiming that 12 "is the number of divine government".


No one is currently occupying. It is the place prepared by Christ for the bride. But the wedding ceremony does not take place until tribulation. So it is empty.

A lot of old units of measure were based on 12.

When I was in Scotland their money was based flow. 12 pence to a shilling and 12 shilling to a pound. 144 pence to a .pound

In ancient times 12 was a number of perfection.
 
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Enoch111

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I think you're missing the point of the dimensions given for the 'city'. In the Greek translation it is not "miles" that is given, and thus the numbers are 12,000. It's dimensions, we are told, are "foursquare", 12,000 in length, width and height.
Why am I *missing the point* if I have converted furlongs to miles? You even failed to provide the units connected with 12,000!
4 is seen as universal...four corners of the whole earth, four winds that cover the whole earth.
Again, you are going down a rabbit trail. Four may be connected to the earth, but 12 is connected to the heavenly Jerusalem. Do you get that?
Where does scripture tell us that the New Jerusalem is currently occupied by the saints who have passed on?
That's your next homework assignment.:cool:
I find this very interesting. After all the times you have rather vehemently denied that numbers have symbolic meaning, here you are claiming that 12 "is the number of divine government".
And why is that a problem? REAL NUMBERS ARE REAL NUMBERS but they can also signify spiritual things. Just like 7 is the number of divine perfection. It still means 7, not 6 or 8.

On the other hand you want to make 1,000 mean anything from 2,000 to whatever you wish. Do you see the difference?
 

Enoch111

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What do the 12 foundations attach to?
We are not told. But they signify solidity. No city on earth is built on any foundations, but since the heavenly Jerusalem is enormous -- the size of a continent, with a tremendous mass and weight, God has designed it with 12 foundations.
And how is the sun and moon blocked out?
They are not blocked out but rendered obsolete. The light from the New Jerusalem orbiting over the earth serves as the sun, and there is no night.
And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. (Rev 21:25)