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Featured Where The Body Is The Vultures Will Gather

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Hidden In Him, Nov 12, 2018.

  1. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Ever wondered what the disciples were wondering about when they asked Jesus, "Where Lord?" in Luke 17:37? @Naomi25 and I had been discussing this question on another thread recently, and I think I finally have the proper answer now.

    But let me first quote the passage in full from Luke's gospel:

    22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. 23 And they shall say to you, "See here" or, "See there." Go not after them, nor follow them. 24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. 25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. 26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, "Where, Lord?" And he said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the vultures be gathered together."

    The answer comes from comparing the above text with a parallel passage found in Matthew 24, where he has Jesus saying:

    "Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather" (Matthew 24:23–28)

    When they were asking "Where Lord?" in Luke 17:37, what they actually wanted to know is "Where will these false christs manifest themselves, Lord?" This is evident by comparing the texts. But if you'll notice, in Luke's account Jesus never says anything about "the wilderness" or "the secret chambers" yet; only that some will say, "Lo, He is here," or "Lo, He is there." He instead skips straight to talking about how they will know the real Christ has come:

    "And they will say to you, 'Lo, here,' or 'Lo, there.' Do not go forth nor follow. For as the lightning which lights up the sky shines from under [one side of] the heaven to under [the other side of] heaven, so also will be the Son of man [do so] in His day." (Luke 17:23)

    It is by comparing both accounts that we see more of the full progression of how the conversation originally went. He originally told them merely that some would say "He is here," or "He is there," to which they asked, "Where, Lord?" (i.e. "Where will they say the Christ is?"). After they asked this, Jesus apparently then gave more specifics as recored in Matthew's account: In the wilderness or in the secret chambers. But none of it would be true, for the Son of Man would appear in the sky like lightning shining from East to West, and gather His elect unto Himself in the air. Any "christ" that manifested himself as a mere mortal man on the earth would be a false one, and would only gather unto himself vultures (i.e. those who feed on the dead) around him.

    Just thought I would share this with anyone who was likewise curious about the question.

    Blessings in Christ,
    Hidden In Him
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
  2. Heart2Soul

    Heart2Soul Well-Known Member

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    the first thing that caught my eye in your post is that this verse says "body"...."Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
    and this verse says corpse...."Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather"

    The body is "alive" in Christ, whereas the corpse is dead in Christ.

    Yes or No?
     
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  3. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    This was my contention when I was sorting through things a few days ago. But it didn't set well with me that the expression should have two different meanings in the exact same context in both gospels, and in Matthew's He clearly used the Greek word for "corpse." So I had to rethink it.

    But the above puts all the pieces together finally. :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
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  4. Heart2Soul

    Heart2Soul Well-Known Member

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    Oh ok....I haven't followed you and Nancy's conversation fully on the subject so I probably missed that.
     
  5. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Me and Naomi25... although I like @Nancy too. :p
     
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  6. Heart2Soul

    Heart2Soul Well-Known Member

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    Oh....ok....well see I really haven't followed it at all then....lol!
     
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  7. lforrest

    lforrest Well-Known Member Staff Member Admin

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    This is to say that some people are attracted to false teachings? Presumably they do not know the voice of the Shepherd. He is the Truth and those who love and practice falsehood will follow another.
     
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  8. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    It is quite unfortunate that you quoted from one of the modern Bible versions which use the word "vultures" when it really should be "eagles". And that changes everything.

    King James Bible
    And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
    Jubilee Bible 2000
    And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Where the body is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    American King James Version
    And they answered and said to him, Where, Lord? And he said to them, Wherever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


    Strong's Concordance (105)
    aetos: an eagle

    Original Word: ἀετός, οῦ, ὁ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
    Transliteration: aetos
    Phonetic Spelling: (ah-et-os')
    Definition: an eagle
    Usage: an eagle, bird of prey.

    While eagles are bird of prey, they are depicted as noble birds in Scripture, and many allusions to eagles relate to the God Himself as well as the children of God and the Cherubim.

    Isaiah 40:31 - But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew [their] strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; [and] they shall walk, and not faint.
    Psalms 103:5 - Who satisfieth thy mouth with good [things; so that] thy youth is renewed like the eagle's.
    Job 39:27 - Doth the eagle mount up at thy command, and make her nest on high?
    Exodus 19:4 - Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and [how] I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
    Ezekiel 1:10 - As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.

    The context of this verse is that of one person being taken and the other being left behind (verses 34-36). If the ones who are taken are also the ones who are TAKEN UP to Heaven, then this can be clearly understood.

    In view of this the "body" is the Body of Christ and the "eagles" are the saints of God at the Rapture.
     
  9. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. The "corpse" is a very derogatory term to use. Within Judaism, anything dead was said to be "unclean," and the Lord was here referencing consuming the teachings of unclean spirits, who are the authors of the great heresies of both scripture and history.
     
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  10. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Blessings, Enoch.

    Until recently I held to a very similar view, and even posted on it. But the problem there is this: He uses the expression in both Luke and Matthew's accounts, and Matthew has Him using the Greek word πτώμα, not σώμα, which means he was talking not just about a body but about a corpse, i.e. a dead body. That the body of Christ should be referred to in such a way is unnatural, especially when in Matthew the expression follows a teaching on the false christs that will emerge in the earth.

    This forces one into deciding if He was using two very similar expressions to communicate two entirely different meanings, or if He was communicating the same thing in both Matthew and Luke's accounts. There are way too many similarities in the two passages to think anything other than that they are Luke and Matthew giving two different accounts of the same sermon/teaching. And if "body" then means "dead body" in both, not only is it an unnatural way to reference the body of Christ, but you have to account for how the body of Christ could be read into Matthew 24:23-28.
     
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  11. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    P.S. There was no separate word in Greek for "vulture." All large birds of prey were referred to as "ὁ ἀετός."
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
  12. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Since the Rapture is really the Resurrection/Rapture, where the dead bodies of the saints will be raised at the same time, I believe that should not be a difficulty. In any event this is a rather enigmatic statement by Christ.
     
  13. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    That's a plausible counter. And yes, the saying is indeed enigmatic. For me the deciding factor is that the "body of Christ" interpretation would be taking a phrase that normally conveys negative imagery, particularly for the Jews (i.e. that of birds of prey gathering to feast upon dead flesh) and making it convey a positive one instead. I think that's what threw me the most.
     
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  14. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    Great stuff to think on. I have read your post only once so, I will have to go back and read it again but, very interesting as, I have not really given this allot of thought as to "corpses and bodies".
    False teachers and false christs=doctrines of demons. Those who follow them are like vultures being fed lies=death. It is so important to be like the Bareans ♥
     
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  15. Vexatious

    Vexatious Active Member

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    The obvious answer to someone who isn't a pretribber or patient in a mental hospital is that the disciples wanted to know where the people taken would be taken.

    Yes, Jesus uses the same phrase about vultures in Matthew, immediately his comments about false christs and false prophets. That doesn't mean in Luke you can ignore the context of Jesus saying people would be taken and the disciples answered by asking where. Go get a dictionary and don't be an illiterate pretribber who doesn't know English nor honesty, such as the true meaning of the word "answered". (It's just a fact that pretriber arguments depend on not knowing, or denying, the true meaning of English words.)

    While you're reading Matthew, look at what Jesus says, "The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." This comment follows Jesus' comment about people being taken. Those taken will be cut to pieces, put with the hypocrites, in a place with weeping and gnashing of teeth. Prettibers better repent and hope they aren't taken, because those taken are put in Hell.

    Once you understand this, then I'll explain Matthew's quote concerning vultures.
     
  16. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    I do think this is the right interpretation, yes.
    Do you find it interesting in the Luke passages that it almost bookends the subject? It starts with "see here, see there"...the warning of the false messiahs. And then right at the end there is again that warning...'where the corpse it, there the vultures gather'.
    It's like he circled back around to it, closing off the paragraph and emphasising the importance of the warning.
     
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  17. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    That one deserves a double "like." Too bad I only get to use one : )
     
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  18. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Yes. He prefaced the entire teaching by warning the disciples that they would long to see one of the days of the Son of Man but would not (Luke 17:22), and the ends it by warning them about what to look for verses what NOT to look for.
     
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  19. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    We are talking about the second coming here right? We are all in agreement I think on that score. So what we are discussing is the separation of the sheep and the goats... The wheat and the tares. Note that in another payable where Jesus is describing the very same event,
    KJV Matthew 13
    30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

    Here we have the same action at the same time... One taken and one remaining. We hear that the rapture is to take place first. And that those'taken' are taken to heaven. Yet Luke, quoting Jesus, said those taken will be destroyed, Jesus likening those days with the days of Noah...
    KJV Luke 17
    26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
    27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
    28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
    29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

    Which ages with the payable I mentioned above, the wheat and the tares, where Jesus instructed the angels to first gather the tares, bundle them up and destroy them. To be consistent I see the reference in the OP regarding the corpse being taken away where the Eagles are... Makes more sense... Taken away to be destroyed... Eaten by birds as in Revelation 19.18. just seems more consistent to me.
     
  20. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Blessings to you, Vexatious.

    Don't take this response as though I am offended, it's just that I can't in good conscience dialogue with you when your argument is packaged with so many insults. I would be encouraging you to keep doing so if I responded, and that would be sinning against both you and the God who loves you.

    If you can repackage your argument in a more friendly Spirit, I would be glad to discuss it.
    Hidden
     
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