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Featured Who is an apostles

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by H. Richard, Sep 21, 2016.

  1. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    From a dictionary. APOSTLE = A disciple, A follower, A missionary, A messenger,
    an advocate, A student, A pupil, A believer, A supporter, A person sent forth on an assignment.

    A person doing any of the above is an apostle.

    When a person believes and testifies/teaches that Jesus is the Son of God and that his blood sacrifice has paid for the sins of the whole world that person is an apostle for that belief.
     
  2. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I'll start. I would like your thoughts on these verses:

    1 Corinthians 12:28 KJV
    And God hath SOME in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
    1 Corinthians 12:29 KJV
    Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

    I of course added the emphasis on "some". That wourd of course, does not mean "all".

    The second verse are rhetorical questions to which the obvious answer is "no. Not all are apostles".

    I understand the thought about a person being an apostle for that belief, but it seems that there were those in Corinth that fit that bill (despite the condition of the church overall). Yet Paul still says that not all are.

    Thoughts, comments?
     
  3. StanJ

    StanJ Lifelong student of God's Word.

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    We don't go by what the modern definition of what an Apostle is, we go by what the 1st century definition of the Greek word ἀπόστολος (apostolos) was, and that is; one sent as a messenger or agent, the bearer of a commission, messenger. At first they were also his only disciples, in the Greek, μαθητής (mathētēs), which equates to disciple, student, follower; a committed learner and follower.
    Then others started to follow Him, which is why they are differentiated in the New Testament as also Apostles. Sometimes even just referring to them as 'The 12'. The first 12 were called and sent by Jesus and the only other one that was called and sent by Jesus was Paul. Mark 3:14 and Romans 11:13
    The last of the 13 Apostles from the New Testament to die was John who wrote the Book of Revelation and since that time there have been no other Apostles of Jesus Christ. There are many many many disciples but only those that Jesus called specifically and sent out with a mission are considered Apostles.
     
  4. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    ** I posted this so that others could see that they are the disciples (apostles) of Jesus just as Paul was if they are preaching the same message of grace that Paul gave us. The word apostle is not a special designation given to exalt some over others as do the RCC. It is only a label that describes what a person does. A taxi cab driver has the title of "taxi cab driver" to note what he does.

    I personal believe that God sees any of His children teaching/preaching His words to be an apostle. We do know that the 12 and Paul were special in that they personally knew Jesus. However, in a spiritual way, every child of God knows Jesus.

    Only the religious will see that the verse you quoted "1 Corinthians 12:28 KJV" set up a class of people that makes some above the others. Paul certainly does no say that. It is a fact that some of these designations have disappeared because they are no longer needed. Prophesy, we already have them. Speaking in tougues, no longer needed.

    Gota go my wife has called me. Ha! Ha!
     
  5. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    Of course Paul doesn't say that there is a class above other people. But this chapter does say that the body is one body of many members, and not all members are the same. The eye is not the nose, the hand is not the foot, etc... He also says that there are different administrations and operations:

    1 Cor 12
    [5] And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
    [6] And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.


    As for some of these designations disappearing or no longer being needed... You sure about that? I never saw any verse that says they are no longer needed.
     
  6. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    ***
    Yes, I am sure.

    1 Cor 13:8
    8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
    NKJV

    All I am trying to show is that a Pope, or preacher, or teacher is not above any of the other children of God. Since all the children of God are a part of the body of Christ can the hand say it is above the foot? Where can the hand go if the foot does not take it?

    I am tired of some religious zealots thinking that they are closer to God than all the rest of the children of God.
     
  7. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    I can agree with your overall point (that they aren't above others in the eyes of God) and that goes right along with what 1 cor 12 is sayng. What I'm merely pointing out is that we all aren't apostles.
     
  8. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    ***
    I suppose we will have to disagree and let it go at that. It is not that important.

    I feel that I am an apostle in that I follow Paul and I preach and teach his gospel that he received from Jesus. It is not important that others see me as such. But I feel it is important to God.

    I also see you as an apostle since you are doing as I am doing.
     
  9. heretoeternity

    heretoeternity New Member

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    You do realize there were other apostles besides Paul? I guess you do not know that....Peter, James, John for example...
    You seem to think Paul can save you..try reading and following the words of the Master, our Lord and Saviour Jesus in the Gospels..it is very clear and straight forward, but if you think Paul can save you, better check the spirit you are actually following.
     
  10. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough Richard. While I appreciate the vote of confidence, I don't consider myself an apostle. Not because of whether I am worthy or not; but because I haven't received that particular calling. In any sense, I am humbled and happy with where God has placed me now.
     
  11. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    ***
    Please grow up. I have never said Paul can save anyone. Quit being foolish.

    Jesus sent Paul out to the Gentile world with a gospel of god's grace and I will hear him. Paul's gospel of grace is the only way to be saved in this age. The 12 were apostles to the Jews.
     
  12. StanJ

    StanJ Lifelong student of God's Word.

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    Paul was not speaking about the gifts of the Spirit In 1 Corinthians 13, he was speaking about the efforts of man.
    There are probably many people that are closer to God than I am but they usually don't post about it. Paul said he could boast about it but that he wouldn't boast about it.
     
  13. heretoeternity

    heretoeternity New Member

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    Perhaps you should get over your fixation with Paul, then, and let it be known that you believe there were other Apostles...you seem content to misquote Paul all the time with ways to avoid following the word of God and His commandments because he confuses you..as 2nd Peter said in 3.16 Paul writes confusing, so the incompetent in the word of God will misinterpret to their own destruction"...seems you have fallen into that trap.
     
  14. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    ***
    Who is the ''we'' in what you said?
     
  15. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    ***
    Rom 2:16
    16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
    NKJV

    Rom 16:25
    25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
    NKJV

    2 Tim 2:8
    8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel,
    NKJV
     
  16. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    ***
    Nor did I boast about it. I claim to be preaching and teaching Paul's gospel. People that preach and teach a gospel are messenger and that is the same as an apostle. No boasting, Just a fact.
     
  17. StanJ

    StanJ Lifelong student of God's Word.

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    Paul clearly said it wasn't his gospel it was Jesus'. Paul did not appoint you and Jesus did not appoint you. You were saved by the gospel message. That does not make you an apostle because an Apostle has to be personally called by Jesus and that would be kind of hard seeing as though Jesus hasn't called any Apostle personally since Paul. That, is a fact.
     
  18. Wormwood

    Wormwood Chaps Staff Member

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    beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.” 23 And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also called Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” 26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

    For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

    Two important points to understand here. First, Apostles were designated by those who were personal witness of the resurrection and were assigned to the specific task of proclaiming the Gospel, as Acts 1 makes clear in the text above. Second, Paul makes it very clear that he was "last of all" assigned to be an Apostle as one "untimely born." In other words, Paul was an unusual case because he was not a part of Christ's earthly ministry nor did he witness the resurrection. Rather, he became an Apostle via special revelation as one who became an Apostle in a very unique way. Moreover, Paul speaks of Apostles as the "foundation" of the church. The foundation has already been laid through the preaching of the Gospel by the first Apostles. That was their role. Apostles laid the foundation for the church. Thus, there are no Apostles today because 1) the original witnesses died and 2) the foundation of the Gospel which was fully proclaimed has already been laid. Apostles were specifically called to proclaim the unknown message of Christ to the world. Paul testifies to this in almost every letter as he declares himself to have been "called" by Christ himself as an Apostle. An Apostle is far more than someone that is merely a believer. Otherwise, Paul would not have made such a big deal in his position as an Apostle in the letters he wrote. He started those letters proclaiming he was an Apostle as a way of telling his audience that he was specifically chosen and sent by God to proclaim a message that had been personally revealed to him. So if Jesus has not personally revealed himself to you and has given you a message previously unknown from ages past...then you are NOT an Apostle.
     
  19. StanJ

    StanJ Lifelong student of God's Word.

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    @Wormwood

    Good post but I recently came to a perspective on Matthias being a replacement apostle.
    Although the apostles tried to justify the appointment of Matthias, through lots no less, I believe they made a mistake. Everything that is in the Bible is not always in line with God's will and I'm sure you read many stories about those who did what they thought was right but it was not God's will. I think Jesus called exactly who He wanted to be apostles and I do not think that the apostles we're acting in his will when they came to choosing a replacement for Judas. When you think about it Jesus himself actually appointed the 12th Apostle to replace Judas.
     
  20. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    While I don't believe we are apostles (speaking of believers) I do believe there are apostles today. It seems to me through my various studies that an apostle is one sent by the Lord. In context, to bring a certain message. I don't think anyone can argue that the original 11 plus Paul qualify. Nor do I want to downplay the significance and importance of the original 12.

    An apostle only be needed to be chosen of Jesus. Not to have physically witnessed him in the flesh.

    Now proving you are an apostle... That's a tough task. Even if you aren't a pharisee who hunted and killed Christians!
     
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