A video I watched several months ago rhetorically asked this question. While it is absurd to suppose "the Father" is not THE Father of Jesus, Scripture is crystal clear it was the Holy Spirit. So, on what basis does one answer the question?
Who is Jesus' Father? HS or the Father?
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Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
"Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;" (2 Corinthians 1:3)
"For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ," (Ephesians 3:14)
"That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ." (1 John 1:3)
If Paul and John said that God was Christ’s Father, that’s good enough for me.
Yes, this one scripture (below) says that Mary was with child of the Holy Ghost, but ultimately God made that happen.
"Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." (Matthew 1:18)
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Confusing the Father with the Holy Spirit is modalism, and not orthodox teaching. The Spirit is defined as God's presence being manifested in various places in the created universe. Although God is omnipresent He manifests Himself within the universe in various places at various times.
In other words, God is everywhere at once, and also reveals Himself in particular places in the universe at various times. God appears as two distinct Persons, in this regard.
It is the same with the Father and the Son. The Father is everywhere and uncreated, and yet He can appear in the personality of Jesus, a man. Thus, God shows Himself to exist as two persons. And if you add the Holy Spirit, you have God in 3 Persons, blessed Trinity. Page 131 in the Lutheran hymnbook.
2 Peter 1:17 (NASB) For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, "This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased"--
Matthew 3:17 (NASB) and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."
Matthew 17:5 (NASB) While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, "This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!"
Mark 9:7 (NASB) Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, "This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!"
Matthew 3:17 (NASB) and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."
Matthew 17:5 (NASB) While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, "This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!"
Mark 9:7 (NASB) Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, "This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!"
Young's literal translation says both the HS and the father were involved:
Luk 1:35 And the messenger answering said to her, 'The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore also the holy-begotten thing shall be called Son of God;
Luk 1:35 And the messenger answering said to her, 'The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore also the holy-begotten thing shall be called Son of God;
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
I myself, don't believe that Gods Holy Spirit to be a person. I know there are scriptures that personify Gods Holy Spirit.
Jesus referred to the holy spirit as a “helper” and he said that this helper would “teach,” “bear witness,” “speak,” and ‘hear, but the scriptures also personify death, wisdom, grief and sighing, so I'm not going to believe that death, wisdom, sighing or grief are person's just because the scriptures personifies them. More evidence is needed to say whether Gods Holy Spirit is a person. We can't go only by the fact that the scriptures personify Gods Holy Spirit.
The scriptures also say concerning Gods Holy Spirit that people are baptized with the Holy Spirit, filled with the Holy Spirit and anointed with the Holy Spirit such statements don't make it seem to me that the Holy Spirit is a person.
As I said some scripture say that the spirit “spoke,” other passages however make clear that this was done through angels or humans. (Acts 4:24, 25; 28:25; Matt. 10:19, 20; Acts 20:23; 21:10, 11.) At 1 John 5:6-8, not only the spirit but also “the water and the blood” are said to ‘bear witness.’ So, none of the expressions found in these scriptures in themselves prove that the holy spirit is a person to me.
The point being is that the Only Begotten Son of God has a Father and God. Jesus tells us that after he is resurrected. John 20:17
Jesus referred to the holy spirit as a “helper” and he said that this helper would “teach,” “bear witness,” “speak,” and ‘hear, but the scriptures also personify death, wisdom, grief and sighing, so I'm not going to believe that death, wisdom, sighing or grief are person's just because the scriptures personifies them. More evidence is needed to say whether Gods Holy Spirit is a person. We can't go only by the fact that the scriptures personify Gods Holy Spirit.
The scriptures also say concerning Gods Holy Spirit that people are baptized with the Holy Spirit, filled with the Holy Spirit and anointed with the Holy Spirit such statements don't make it seem to me that the Holy Spirit is a person.
As I said some scripture say that the spirit “spoke,” other passages however make clear that this was done through angels or humans. (Acts 4:24, 25; 28:25; Matt. 10:19, 20; Acts 20:23; 21:10, 11.) At 1 John 5:6-8, not only the spirit but also “the water and the blood” are said to ‘bear witness.’ So, none of the expressions found in these scriptures in themselves prove that the holy spirit is a person to me.
The point being is that the Only Begotten Son of God has a Father and God. Jesus tells us that after he is resurrected. John 20:17
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Your basic misunderstanding seems to be that the Holy Spirit does not speak for God. If indeed He speaks for God, and He does, then He is most certainly God Himself, acting through that Person of the Trinity.
Jesus said something similar about his own relationship with the Father. He said that when people saw him, they were actually seeing God. They were actually hearing God. The person of the Father was resident in the Person of the Son.
In the same way the Person of the Father is resident in the Person of the Spirit. When you hear the Spirit speak, whether through another Christian or by some other means, then you are hearing the Person of the Father speak through the Person of the Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not a an impersonal force, like a hammer.
The Holy Spirit forbade Paul to visit a city. Imagine me saying that my hammer forbade me to go to the hardware store.
In Acts Peter said that Ananias lied to God when he lied to the Holy Spirit.
Act 5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land?
Act 5:4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God.”
How do you lie to an impersonal force? How can you grieve an impersonal force?
If I lie to my hammer and grieve it, does that make any sense?
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
How could an impersonal force live in a temple?
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
The Holy Spirit forbade Paul to visit a city. Imagine me saying that my hammer forbade me to go to the hardware store.
In Acts Peter said that Ananias lied to God when he lied to the Holy Spirit.
Act 5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land?
Act 5:4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God.”
How do you lie to an impersonal force? How can you grieve an impersonal force?
If I lie to my hammer and grieve it, does that make any sense?
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
How could an impersonal force live in a temple?
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
I wasn't saying the Holy Spirit is talking for God, I wasn't even thinking anything like that. I was saying that the Holy Spirit speaks to us either through an angel or a servant of the true God, you said that God is speaking to us through those particular person's whether it be an angel or a human, which I agree, God is speaking to us by use of his Holy Spirit, but that doesn't mean the Holy Spirit is a person. The scriptures are God speaking and teaching us, the scriptures are a product of Gods Holy Spirit but when God inspired men to pen the holy scriptures that doesn't mean the Holy Spirit is a person but rather God was using his Holy Spirit as a means of communicating his thoughts to men.
It seems to me that the Holy Spirit is the invisible energizing force that God will use to accomplish his will or purpose. People can be filled with the Holy Spirit and empowered by the Holy Spirit but again that doesn't mean the Holy Spirit is a person that posseses them and takes control.
I find it interesting that the scriptures give a personal name to the True God, who is the Father and God of the Only Begotten Son of God, that name being YHWH, some pronounce these four hebrew letters Jehovah, others pronounce the four hebrew letters Yahweh. A personal name is given to the Only Begotten Son of God, that name is Jesus, but the Holy Spirit isn't given a personal name. Also when a prophet of the true God has a vision concerning God, you never see three figures that look like persons, sometimes they see one person, God, sometimes two person's The True God and his Only Begotten Son but never three. If the Holy Spirit is a person why is it that the Holy Spirit isn't given a person name like our Father and God is or like the Only Begotten Son of God. Why isn't the Holy Spirit ever seen as in the form of a person like the True God and his Only Begotten Son are. For me there's too much in the scriptures that show that the Holy Spirit isn't a person but instead not a person.
Jesus is the Son of God. He is also God as is the Holy Spirit and as is Jehovah.
But Jesus isn't the Father, or the Holy Spirit.
It's the eternal mystery of the three-in-one Godhead. We are mere mortals and find this difficult to understand. But there again we don't have to understand to believe.
But Jesus isn't the Father, or the Holy Spirit.
It's the eternal mystery of the three-in-one Godhead. We are mere mortals and find this difficult to understand. But there again we don't have to understand to believe.
I see thus far that no one can answer your OP simply and directly, except for the minimal response given by @n2thelight . Others skirt around it with their own words or scripture that does NOT have direct bearing on your OP question at all. Not surprising.
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Not skirting around. Just not wasting time on this nonsense. So let's just take one verse and settle this.
The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not. (2 Cor 11:31)
God the Father is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. And the Father declared several times "This is my beloved Son". So this thread is just for unnecessary controversy and vain jangling.
That's all well and good Enoch although I would like to address the OP question as I would think you would be directly....
John 4:23-26 (NASB) “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
The Father who is God, is the SPIRIT, the HOLY SPIRIT. The Father and the Holy Spirit are the same, of the same essence although used as different personified roles. The Father extends his reach into our world IN HIS SPIRIT, for creation and communication!
Genesis 1:1-2 (NASB) In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
Even the RCs doubted the HS as a separate person by the end the 5th century.
Even today we have quotes for their books:
New Catholic Encyclopedia states:
The OT clearly does not envisage God’s spirit as a person, neither in the strictly philosophical sense, nor in the Semitic sense. God’s spirit is simply God’s power.
and of course God's power is the Father's power.....
A Catholic Dictionary says:
On the whole, the New Testament, like the Old, speaks of the spirit as a divine energy or power.
They have it right!
APAK
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Not sure how you reach this. Prophets and angels speak for God but are not God.
While the Holy Spirit was involved in the supernatural conception of Christ, Jesus -- the eternal Word of God -- was the Son of God the Father from eternity past (John 1:1) And no one can have two fathers.
That is why when we see the baptism of Christ in Scripture, the Holy Spirit descended in the form of a dove, but God the Father spoke from Heaven and said this: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." The same voice spoke from Heaven at the transfiguration of Christ, and said almost the same thing.
It is so funny how they react to the obvious contradictions of their doctrine.
Here, total denial.
The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
Luke 1:35
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