Who is the Babylon of Revelation? (part 1)

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Trekson

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I believe that the USA will become the Babylon of Rev. 17 & 18, however I do not believe it is that Babylon at the moment, nor do I believe that Rome or a future apostate church is the whore mentioned in Rev. 17. I have many reasons for feeling this and I will try to list them all. It is a mistake to take present day America and see it as being the same as end-times America.

The term "Babylon" has long been used as a "type" for tyranny. In the years before and after Christ, many nations were known by their capitol city. Babylon was the city of residence for the king of Chaldea. Rome was the city of residence for the Caesars of Italy. Israel was known best by Jerusalem, its capitol.

America is known by it’s financial center for world-wide trade and the port through which most immigrants entered which is Ellis Island off the shores of New York City. While our leaders reside in Washington, D.C., the economic center of this nation is undoubtedly NYC. This nation was founded by God and used to fulfill His purposes. Daniel 2:21 "He removeth kings, and setteth up kings", (KJV) and Daniel 4:17 "This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones; to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men". (KJV)

God is sovereign in the nations that he sets up and the nations he tears down. God set up the United States of America for a purpose. We didn't become the most powerful nation on earth because of anything we did. It is because God has chosen this nation for his own purpose and he will either exalt her or abase her at his will, not ours.

When we as a nation, through the efforts of our elected leaders, turn our backs against God and actually come to the point where we attack Israel (it could happen) or debase ourselves with national sin, then our destiny will play out as is written in Rev. 18.

What is a term used to describe Babylon by God in His word? God calls Nebuchadnezzar, the King of Babylon, His servant in Jer. 27:6. America has been God’s servant for a couple of centuries but what became of Babylon of old? They were removed by God from their greatness after they had fulfilled the purpose ordained by God. The fate of America will be the same.

I believe that there are near and far prophecies in most of the old testament books like Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel and Jeremiah. Some foretold of the destruction of the Babylon of that day and some like Jer. 51 foretell of a future destruction of a type of Babylon. In Rev. 17 & 18, John tells us about two faces of something identified as Mystery Babylon. I, for one do not believe that John or God plays word games when trying to get His message across. If God meant Rome, then He wouldn’t have said in Rev. 17:9...
"This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. (NIV)

In reality, how much wisdom would it take to come up with Rome? but things are not that simply stated so it must be talking of something other than Rome. Another point is, if God was talking about Rome than why would He confuse the issue by calling it Babylon. People try to decipher all kinds of hidden meanings and messages in the Book of Revelations but it is much easily understood by looking outside the box. These chapters are either talking about the obvious, in which they would have said so; or John is trying to describe something in his own words by using analogies of things he is familiar with, to help get his message across. He doesn’t come right out and say Rome because he isn’t talking about Rome. He is telling of some future political system that the closest thing he can come to describe it is Rome. He also doesn’t come right out and say Babylon, instead he calls it Mystery Babylon, something like Babylon but not quite, because it’s the best example he can come up with.
Now when I read this description of the woman on the beast in Rev. 17:4 - “The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries“. (NIV) The first thing I think of is the Statue of Liberty draped in the flag of our nation and how we are known as a country of riches. Verse 6 tells us that...
...the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. (NIV)

Now many people look at that and then automatically think of the horrible things the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) did historically, but Revelations is a prophetic book and I believe this is describing what this type of Babylon will do, not what has already been done. I believe this is describing the same group of people spoken of in Rev. 6:9, 7:14, 12:11 &17, 13:7-10, and 14:12. Most have no difficulty recognizing these people as being spoken of futuristically but then stumble to call them historical in their efforts to sway people towards their particular prophetic theories and to demonize the pope and RCC.
 

Trekson

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Are you saying that you think this was history and not obvious prophecy?
 

Willie T

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I think most people are arrogantly believing nothing in the Bible could possibly have been written for anyone but US...… 2,000+ years off into the future.
 

Bobby Jo

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... Babylon of Rev. 17 & 18 ...

Don't you know? Everything in Scripture pertains to Israel; and is limited to the "known world" at the time it was written. Anything beyond this is called "Extra Biblical", which restricts ANYTHING that considers new eras, new technologies, new discovered lands, and new governments -- as though GOD were caught by SURPRISE when these all occurred.

Of course This position has inherent contradictions. Mark 16:15 commands Christians to “go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation.” However, using this constrictive logic, maybe the as yet undiscovered two American continents, the Australian continent, and vast regions of Far East and southeast Asia should have never been evangelized. Furthermore, when Christ returns for the 1,000 year Millennial Reign, will one half of the world be exempt from His authority?

But who would be so naive to challenge established DOCTRINES, -- even if they fail to be Scriptural, Historical, or Rational --, THEY'RE DOCTRINES.

Yeah, you're right to question "Mystery Babylon", the "one-world-government", the "seven mountains/kings"; and the FALSE Doctrines regarding the RRC as some evil end-time entity.

Perhaps the creators of "Superman" were more perceptive than the "church". They EASILY recognized NYC as "Metropolis", and Clark Kent worked at "The Daily Planet". (In case you didn't catch the clue, Nebuchadnezzar was the FIRST kingdom to use the Metropolis model, -- which all successive empires have followed.)

Lot's of questions, with simple answers, -- but probably hard to come by in "christian" (small "c') forums.


Thanks,
Bobby Jo
 
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Naomi25

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I don't think we're looking at any 'single' city, really. Or even maybe a time, although I'm less certain about that. Babylon was the quintessential 'city of man', representing a society and people who rejected God and strove after their own desires and needs. At the same time, in the OT, Jerusalem was always portrayed as the 'City of God'...or at the very least, the city of God's people. So, when we come to Revelation, there is, again, this contrast being used, by John, to point out the conflict between the city of men and the city of God. The city of God in Revelation in the New Jerusalem. Babylon is mentioned by name, but as Babylon ceased to be long ago (even when Revelation was being written), and the NJ had not yet 'come down', we can suppose that what we are looking at here is a symbology. Babylon is being used for every city, nation or society which seeks after it's own desires and needs by shutting God out (and we cannot deny there are a plethora of those present today!), and New Jerusalem is represented in the People of God.
 

Enoch111

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I believe that the USA will become the Babylon of Rev. 17 & 18...
There are some who believe this, but it has absolutely no Scriptural support. Babylon and Mystery Babylon are connected, and both go back to the original Babylon.
 

Earburner

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There are some who believe this, but it has absolutely no Scriptural support. Babylon and Mystery Babylon are connected, and both go back to the original Babylon.
All should take note that Beasts are spoken of in the male gender. Mystery Babylon the Great is spoken of in the female gender!
Clue: it once was a "church" God used, but came to ruination in 70AD.
 
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Trekson

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There are some who believe this, but it has absolutely no Scriptural support. Babylon and Mystery Babylon are connected, and both go back to the original Babylon.

I think the description given in Rev. 18 as well as Jer. 50 &51 clearly describes the US. Based on that description what alternative do you offer because geographically and politically literal Babylon just doesn't fit?
 

Enoch111

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I think the description given in Rev. 18 as well as Jer. 50 &51 clearly describes the US. Based on that description what alternative do you offer because geographically and politically literal Babylon just doesn't fit?
We have no idea of the status of Babylon in Iraq by the time the Antichrist is revealed. But we see Babylon as coming under God's judgment ever since the Tower of Babel was constructed.

That is not to say that America will not come under God's judgment. Indeed the whole world will experience the wrath of God. However, the destruction of Babylon, the day of the LORD, and the shaking of the heavens and the earth are all connected to the Great Tribulation and its aftermath (and all of that yet future).

The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see... Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty...Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it... For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world [including America] for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. (Isa 13:1, 6, 9-13)

That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!... For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD. (Isa 14:4,22)
 

Trekson

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We have no idea of the status of Babylon in Iraq by the time the Antichrist is revealed. But we see Babylon as coming under God's judgment ever since the Tower of Babel was constructed.

That is not to say that America will not come under God's judgment. Indeed the whole world will experience the wrath of God. However, the destruction of Babylon, the day of the LORD, and the shaking of the heavens and the earth are all connected to the Great Tribulation and its aftermath (and all of that yet future).

The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see... Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty...Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it... For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world [including America] for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. (Isa 13:1, 6, 9-13)

That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!... For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD. (Isa 14:4,22)

Whatever this is (which I believe to be the USA) is a replacement for Babylon. The Babylon of old already saw it's destruction a long time ago.
 

Enoch111

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Whatever this is (which I believe to be the USA) is a replacement for Babylon. The Babylon of old already saw it's destruction a long time ago.
As did Israel. But Israel came back in 1948, and ancient Babylon will also be revived in order to fulfil the actually prophecies connected with the Day of the LORD.
 
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Dave L

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As did Israel. But Israel came back in 1948, and ancient Babylon will also be revived in order to fulfil the actually prophecies connected with the Day of the LORD.
That is not biblical Israel. Jesus and the Church are Israel and to whom the promises apply.
 

Trekson

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As did Israel. But Israel came back in 1948, and ancient Babylon will also be revived in order to fulfil the actually prophecies connected with the Day of the LORD.

Not impossible but if you understand Rev. 18, the whole world would have to have a major geological shift for that to occur. Israel was prophesied to return, Babylon was not.
 

Jay Ross

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Not impossible but if you understand Rev. 18, the whole world would have to have a major geological shift for that to occur. Israel was prophesied to return, Babylon was not.

Perhaps you would like to prove that Babylon was not prophesied to return. Revelation 16:17-21 tells us that it is so, and that after WW1, Babylon will be remembered once more so that the cup of God's wrath can be poured out against Babylon during the End times. Do not take my word for it. Believe what is recorded in the scriptures. Purpose and time for this remembering of Babylon is given in these verses.

Shalom
 

Trekson

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The Babylon of Rev. is not the same as Babylon of old. it really doesn't take that much study to figure that out.
 

Jay Ross

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The Babylon of Rev. is not the same as Babylon of old. it really doesn't take that much study to figure that out.

Really, then provide the scriptures that tell us that this is so.
 
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brakelite

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First, we must remember that the book of Revelation is essentially symbolic, but symbolic of literal events/persons/entities. The first thing we must deal with in looking at Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth, is that that is a name of a woman. God is not pronouncing and naming a city here...it is a woman. This woman in particular is set in contrast to the woman presented in Revelation 12, a woman of purity. Now names are representative of character. We see that throughout scripture. Even God Himself revealed His own character by telling Moses His name...
¶ And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. Exodus 34:5-7.

We see the same with many names, both in old and new testaments. What we must then decide is what does the woman represent? The text itself does not tell us, therefore we must go elsewhere in scripture to see what a woman in prophecy is used to symbolise...after all, the scripture is our only source of trustworthy information otherwise we can apply 'woman' to almost anything. Cities, nations, and individual people such as Catholicism does for the woman of Revelation 12 when they apply it to Mary. On that basis can we then claim the harlot of Revelation is Nancy Pelosi or Hilary Clinton. What about Megan Markle of or any other woman in current news or history...God is careful not to leave such interpretations up to us, where everything becomes arbitrary and the subject to human reasoning, feelings, and guesswork. Another point to consider is that this woman is riding a beast. Throughout prophetic scripture beasts are used as symbols for nations or state governments. So we can lay aside any idea that the woman is a nation rising upon another nation. This would be totally confusing the entire fabric of the symbols here presented and make no consistent sense whatsoever. So what does scripture tell us?

It tells us that when God spoke to Israel, and the church, when desiring to use symbolic language in a prophetic setting, both entities were symbolised as a woman. Repeatedly in the OT, particularly when proving unfaithful, Israel, not as a civil nation, but as a people of God, was depicted as a harlot...a whore...an adulteress. In the NT the church is also depicted as a bride, one awaiting the arrival of her husband to take her home. I don't think I need to produce the specific scriptures, I think we are all aware that the above is true.

So when looking at Revelation and the woman riding the beast, we are looking at an adulterous unfaithful church. One that initially had a good sound relationship with her spouse, but who through her illicit relationship with the kings of the earth (represented by the beast she is riding) committed adultery and became a whore. She became a whore because it was through her relationship with civil powers she obtained her wealth, her position, and her power. This unfaithful whore also was responsible for the deaths of God's people...the true loyal church that had not apostatised.

In applying this to the future, while the whole picture is a depiction of a relationship that was a common characteristic to her past history, we can expect this relationship to blossom in the future immediately prior to the coming of Christ. As to the identity of the specific nation she is riding, it is clear that she is a global apostate church, and thus the civil power she is controlling is a global state power, or one that certainly has great global influence and authority, but which exercises that authority on the church's behalf to legislate religious edicts and enforce and coerce the world into a false worship in direct opposition to that practiced by the true church as depicted in Revelation 12:17 those who keep the commandments of God and who have the faith of Jesus.

The aforementioned faithful church must also be a global organisation, because the gospel is a global message. Only a global church can effectively deliver a global message to every kindred, nation, tongue, and people, and only a global church can effectively call God's people out of a global apostate system. Thus the end-times prophetic scenario is not a controversy between the world and Israel...nor is it a controversy between Russia, or Islam, and the nation of Israel. The future battle lines are marked to divide the true from the false...the real from the counterfeit...God's true people from Satan's deceived followers who through accepting the beast's mark which identifies the whore's daughters, obey the commandments and traditions of men as opposed to the commandments of God.

The whore and beast is a union of church and state...a counterfeit to the true church which promotes religious liberty, freedom of conscience, and Christ as its only Head.
 

epostle

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Some anti-Catholics claim the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon of Revelation 17 and 18. Dave Hunt, in his 1994 book, A Woman Rides the Beast, presents nine arguments to try to prove this. His claims are a useful summary of those commonly used by Fundamentalists, and an examination of them shows why they don’t work.

Skipping #1, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9.

#2: "Babylon"—What’s in a Name?

Hunt notes that the Whore will be a city "known as Babylon." This is based on Revelation 17:5, which says that her name is "Babylon the Great."

The phrase "Babylon the great" (Greek: Babulon a megala) occurs five times in Revelation (14:8, 16:19, 17:5, 18:2, and 18:21). Light is shed on its meaning when one notices that Babylon is referred to as "the great city" seven times in the book (16:19, 17:18, 18:10, 16, 18, 19, 21). Other than these, there is only one reference to "the great city." That passage is 11:8, which states that the bodies of God’s two witnesses "will lie in the street of the great city, which is allegorically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified."

"The great city" is symbolically called Sodom, a reference to Jerusalem, symbolically called "Sodom" in the Old Testament (cf. Is. 1:10; Ezek. 16:1–3, 46–56). We also know Jerusalem is the "the great city" of Revelation 11:8 because the verse says it was "where the Lord was crucified."

Revelation consistently speaks as if there were only one "great city" ("the great city"), suggesting that the great city of 11:8 is the same as the great city mentioned in the other seven texts—Babylon. Additional evidence for the identity of the two is the fact that both are symbolically named after great Old Testament enemies of the faith: Sodom, Egypt, and Babylon.

This suggests that Babylon the great may be Jerusalem, not Rome. Many Protestant and Catholic commentators have adopted this interpretation. On the other hand, early Church Fathers often referred to Rome as "Babylon," but every references was to pagan Rome, which martyred Christians.

#3: Commits Fornication

Hunt tells us, "The woman is called a ‘whore’ (verse 1), with whom earthly kings ‘have committed fornication’ (verse 2). Against only two cities could such a charge be made: Jerusalem and Rome."

Here Hunt admits that the prophets often referred to Jerusalem as a spiritual whore, suggesting that the Whore might be apostate Jerusalem. Ancient, pagan Rome also fits the description, since through the cult of emperor worship it also committed spiritual fornication with "the kings of the earth" (those nations it conquered).

To identify the Whore as Vatican City, Hunt interprets the fornication as alleged "unholy alliances" forged between Vatican City and other nations, but he fails to cite any reasons why the Vatican’s diplomatic relations with other nations are "unholy."

He also confuses Vatican City with the city of Rome, and he neglects the fact that pagan Rome had "unholy alliances" with the kingdoms it governed (unholy because they were built on paganism and emperor worship).

#7: The Mother of Harlots

Now for Hunt’s most hilarious argument: "John’s attention is next drawn to the inscription on the woman’s forehead: ‘THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH’ (verse 5, [Hunt’s emphasis]). Sadly enough, the Roman Catholic Church fits that description as precisely as she fits the others. Much of the cause is due to the unbiblical doctrine of priestly celibacy," which has "made sinners of the clergy and harlots out of those with whom they secretly cohabit."

Priestly celibacy is not a doctrine but a discipline—a discipline in the Latin Rite of the Church—and even this rite has not always been mandatory. This discipline can scarcely be unbiblical, since Hunt himself says, "The great apostle Paul was a celibate and recommended that life to others who wanted to devote themselves fully to serving Christ."

Hunt has again lurched to an absurdly literal interpretation. He should interpret the harlotry of the Whore’s daughters as the same as their mother’s, which is why she is called their mother in the first place. This would make it spiritual or political fornication or the persecution of Christian martyrs (cf. 17:2, 6, 18:6). Instead, Hunt gives the interpretation of the daughters as literal, earthly prostitutes committing literal, earthly fornication.

If Hunt did not have a fixation on the King James Version, he would notice another point that identifies the daughters’ harlotries with that of their mother: The same Greek word (porna) is used for both mother and daughters. The King James Version translates this word as "whore" whenever it refers to the mother, but as "harlot" when it refers to the daughters. Modern translations render it consistently. John sees the "great harlot" (17:1, 15, 16, 19:2) who is "the mother of harlots" (17:5). The harlotries of the daughters must be the same as the mother’s, which Hunt admits is not literal sex!

More of Dave Hunt's lies exposed here: Hunting the Whore of Babylon | Catholic Answers
 

Bobby Jo

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That is not biblical Israel. Jesus and the Church are Israel and to whom the promises apply.

I have no idea why people don't adhere to the "Extra Biblical" doctrine. EVERTHING in Scripture pertains to Israel; and is limited to the "known world" at the time it was written. Anything beyond this is called "Extra Biblical", which restricts ANYTHING that considers new eras, new technologies, new discovered lands, and new governments -- as though GOD were caught by SURPRISE when these all occurred.

Of course This position has inherent contradictions. Mark 16:15 commands Christians to “go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation.” However, using this constrictive logic, maybe the as yet undiscovered two American continents, the Australian continent, and vast regions of Far East and southeast Asia should have never been evangelized. Furthermore, when Christ returns for the 1,000 year Millennial Reign, will one half of the world be exempt from His authority?

But who would be so naive to challenge established DOCTRINES, -- even if they fail to be Scriptural, Historical, or Rational --, THEY'RE DOCTRINES, and Scripture is only Scripture.


Bobby Jo