Who or What is Israel?

[TexUs]

This topic has come up several times in the past few weeks so I figured I would create a new topic about this so we can learn from each other about who or what Israel is.


Now, go easy on terminology here as I'm trying my best to make sense of what's clear in my mind- and convey that in an easy to understand way.



Let's start with a couple of scriptural passages that are true today, before going back in time.


Romans 9:6, For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel.


Ephesians 2:15, For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.


Romans 4:16, That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham


Passages like these should raise flags that cause us to wonder about the differences between Jew and Gentile. I believe part of the confusion, today, comes from the automatic association of Jew with Israel, or even vice-versa. The way we use these terms today, is different than when they were used in Jesus' day.
I think a look back at the creation of Israel is necessary here to understand some things.


The issue stems with a misconception of how Israel came to be. We think Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob got together, established a nation, and God blessed that nation. This is not true. God blessed and established a people. What implications does this have then, and why's it matter?


Well, God established his people. God's people. We like to think of them in the classic sense, as Israel, which is technically correct, but he selected his people before the nation of Israel came to be. Take away from this, that God doesn't have a special relationship with a nation, but with a people.
Again, we see why terminology matters. "Nation" is often synonymous with "people". But our misuse and misunderstandings about this have led to us blurring the lines and thinking the "State of Israel" is the same as the "Nation/People of Israel". So please bear with me as I go through this.


God established his people. What were the criteria? Follow his laws. Throwing out all terms, who followed his laws? God's people. There's a misconception that this was based on bloodline. This is not so.
Exodus 12:48, If a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised. Then he may come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you.
So, people OTHER THAN those in the pre-established "bloodline"- could become followers of God! All they had to do was submit to God and obey is law! So anyone could become one of God's People, as long as the submit and obey. This will be key later, so remember it.


God decided to call his people "Israel". Now notice, "God's People" and "Israel" are the same thing.


Remember, at this point there was a veil between God and man. God established his temple, with the High Priest's yearly allowance, etc. God also spoke through his prophets. But what I'd like to touch on, is God established a King to rule his people. Saul, David, etc. This was a shadow of what was to come in Christ. This is why the "Nation/People of Israel" resembles a "State of Israel"- because there was earthly leadership in place as well. It's part of the misconceptions surrounding this.


That covers Old Covenant times. So what did Christ change? Well, a lot, and not much. Christ never came to destroy his law. His law wasn't the problem, his people were the problem. Remember God was behind a veil. Christ came, to fulfill his law, which also put an end to sacrifice by being a sacrifice for us, and also removed the need for an earthly governance here. HE was our High Priest. HE was our King. The veil was now removed... There was no longer any need for Israel to have a King or Priest. This is also why Israel, as God's People, has nothing to do with a nation (earthly) anymore.


That's what changed. "Israel" and "God's People" are still the same thing, just like it was true thousands of years ago! Gentiles can still become part of Israel/God's People. Jews (in the Biblical sense) are part of Israel, too.
Thus, Israel is also synonymous with the church.


Now you can see why what I said about terminology has contributed to this problem.
Today, when we say "Jew" we think about those that live in the State of Israel, that follow their Torah. Then when we read "Jew" in the Bible, we automatically think it's the same thing. But the Bible's definition of Jew is different than ours! Our definition includes people not part of God's People. The Bible's encompasses them. So from the git-go, we are making an error regarding who God's People really are.


Because of all this we actually have four terms from what used to be two.
Jew- in the Biblical sense
Israel- in the Biblical sense
Jew- Torah following State of Israel-dweller
Israel- the earthly State of Israel


This is why the whole Israel thing has festered and grown to such a big issue. We tend to think in today's terms (The last two), and thinking by today's terms we read the Bible and come away with an interpretation that doesn't match how the Bible actually interprets these terms!


So, in short, what's all this mean?
1) Israel was, is, and will be, God's People. Otherwise known as his church.
2) Jew and Gentile were, are, and will be able to become God's People. Otherwise known as Israel. Otherwise known as the church.
3) The earthly nation in the Middle East is not the Israel mentioned in the Bible.


Hopefully, this will get some of you thinking. I expect some to object to this and they're welcome to post, too!
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[Disciple]

Isreal is God's chosen predestined children, like you said they are not all Isreal which are descended from Isreal. its those that in heart beleive in and have faith in the Christ and messiah Yeshua.

 

[Robbie]

It's those who believe God when He speaks...

 

[aspen]

I certainly agree that the government of Israel is not the same Israel of the Bible - this fact, however does nothing to waver the devotion of people like John Hagee and many other Christians who belong that we are called to support the Israel of the Middle East.

 

[TexUs]

I certainly agree that the government of Israel is not the same Israel of the Bible - this fact, however does nothing to waver the devotion of people like John Hagee and many other Christians who belong that we are called to support the Israel of the Middle East.

Called based on what?

The Bible, you say?

But you just admitted the Israel of the Bible is not the Israel of the Middle East.

 

[Disciple]

Some are Isreal which are descended from Isreal, it is not our descision on who we help or not, if a brother is strugging then we help him. Isreal is struggling.

 

[Rach1370]

Hey TexUs! That was a really good post! I've know about the concept that today's Church is actually "Israel", but I think that was the best explanation I've ever heard! Certainly got me thinking!

Whether or not I agree, I simply can't tell you... Your post certainly made sense and is scripturally sound, but there are other bible verses that make me wonder. For example:

[Gentiles Grafted In]
[11] So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. [12] Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
[13] Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry [14] in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. [15] For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?
(Romans 11:11-15 ESV)

[The Mystery of Israel's Salvation]
[25] Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. [26] And in this way all Israel will be saved,...
[28] As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. [29] For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
(Romans 11:25-26, 28-29 ESV)

You see, to me, this is talking rather specifically of Jews and Christian Gentiles.
Also, remember when it is said (sorry, the actual verse escapes me!) that Israel will be hated by all nations? If today's Israel is completely unconnected to God, the Bible etc, why on earth have they been so very persecuted over the centuries, and why do we even now see that so many nations have an almost unreasonable hatred for them?

My last point would be this: if once Jesus had died, making a new people of God, which is still called "Israel", why then do we see in the NT; Christians calling themselves Christians, rather than the "new Jews", and also the Apostles clearly referring to both Christian Gentiles, and Christian Jews?

So, it probably sounds like I have made up my mind, and that I'm actually arguing against you, but I'm not!! These are just thoughts that pop to the surface about the subject, and I'm happy for you to address them!

 

[Anastacia]

The first book in the Bible tells us who and what Israel is. See Genesis 32:28:

Genesis 32:28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome.”

Did you see that? The one who struggles with God and with men and overcomes.


And Jesus in the last book of the Bible confirms this message. See these scriptures in Revelation. Read what Jesus says about overcoming:

Revelation 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Revelation 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Revelation 2:17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.

Revelation 2:26 To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations–

Revelation 3:5 He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

Revelation 3:12 Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.

Revelation 3:21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Revelation 21:7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.


And there is only one way a person can overcome this world, and that is through Jesus Christ our Savior...see John 5:5

1 John 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.


So who and what is Israel? Israel are people who overcome by faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[aspen]

Called based on what?

The Bible, you say?

But you just admitted the Israel of the Bible is not the Israel of the Middle East.

I am trying to agree with you TexUs

 

[Disciple]

@Rach; those verses about the gentiles beging graffed in say that we are now graffed into Isreal.

 

[TexUs]

Some are Isreal which are descended from Isreal, it is not our descision on who we help or not, if a brother is strugging then we help him. Isreal is struggling.

I'd agree with this, then...

However I don't really see Israel struggling any ;)
They're doing quite well. I feel safer living in Israel than I do in the US.

[Gentiles Grafted In]
[11] So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. [12] Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
[13] Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry [14] in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. [15] For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?
(Romans 11:11-15 ESV)

[The Mystery of Israel's Salvation]
[25] Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. [26] And in this way all Israel will be saved,...
[28] As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. [29] For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
(Romans 11:25-26, 28-29 ESV)

You see, to me, this is talking rather specifically of Jews and Christian Gentiles.

Think of this in the scope of what I just addressed.

I believe Paul was fighting some of the same misconception that I posted about.

Remember, the Pharisees had bastardized what God had told them. I think over time it became ingrained in Jewish life, the Jews thought they and they alone were special and Paul was trying to do that. Paul also struggled with showing them how Christ fulfilled the law and circumcision is done in the heart, not body.

Also, remember when it is said (sorry, the actual verse escapes me!) that Israel will be hated by all nations? If today's Israel is completely unconnected to God, the Bible etc, why on earth have they been so very persecuted over the centuries, and why do we even now see that so many nations have an almost unreasonable hatred for them?

Again, think in the scope of what I posted.

Is Israel, God's People, the church- hated??? Yes!!!

Is the State of Israel hated as well? Yes... But more so because of a land dispute with the Muslims surrounding them. They're all mad at each other over there that the infidels were able to split off a chunk of land and challenge their rule... This is a dispute of men.

My last point would be this: if once Jesus had died, making a new people of God, which is still called "Israel", why then do we see in the NT; Christians calling themselves Christians, rather than the "new Jews", and also the Apostles clearly referring to both Christian Gentiles, and Christian Jews?

First of all, the Christians never called themselves Christians.
If you read Acts, you'll find they were first called Christians because of the WAY THEY LIVED! (This is an entirely different topic, but an astounding point nonetheless).

What did they call themselves during this time? This is me brainstorming as well, I'm not saying I'm right, but I'm thinking with you.
Well, take note. Christ did his work, but the temple itself was still standing. He tore the veil, yes... You don't think the Jews just hung another one up?
So between 30AD and 70AD, there's a 40 year span (When the New Testament was written) that the old way of life was still very much alive.
The Jewish age didn't come to a close until the temple was destroyed- that was 70AD.

So you have this weird period of transitional time going on, when all of the NT was written. The Bible doesn't really clearly say how the writers of the NT identified themselves.
Paul makes it clear that the Jews and Gentiles are on one tree, called Israel.
I think in this 40 year period, when Paul refers to the Jews, he's speaking to the ones that believed in Christ but still struggling with letting go of the life they knew. Gentiles was simply, everyone else: they that didn't follow the Jewish life- didn't have to struggle with letting go if they never held to it in the first place.

I believe the Bible is clear that Jews, in the OT (they were still saved by faith), and the NT- are believers. When Paul speaks of a higher "honor", per say, it's because the Jews had lived under God's law all this time... Gentiles were not to feel superior to those Jews that had lived by faith much longer than they.

That's really, all the distinction between Jew and Gentile really was. After the destruction of the temple becomes a reality, I think we can see from Early Church writings that the whole "Jew" and "Gentile" thing started a rapid decline and a sense of a singular "Church" in Christ took hold.

So who and what is Israel? Israel are people who overcome by faith in Jesus Christ.

I'd agree with that, too. Also known as the Church ;) Good post.

I am trying to agree with you TexUs

I was asking though, what basis do you say we need to support Israel on?
The same as Ducky, because they need help we should help?

 

[Anastacia]

First of all, the Christians never called themselves Christians.
If you read Acts, you'll find they were first called Christians because of the WAY THEY LIVED! (This is an entirely different topic, but an astounding point nonetheless).

What did they call themselves during this time? This is me brainstorming as well, I'm not saying I'm right, but I'm thinking with you.

So you have this weird period of transitional time going on, when all of the NT was written. The Bible doesn't really clearly say how the writers of the NT identified themselves.



I'd agree with that, too. Also known as the Church ;) Good post.

First, thanks for blessing me with compliment about my post. :) Blessing back to you.

About what the believers were called. I have scriptures that you most likely know, but thought you might be interested in further discussion. See these scriptures:


Acts 15:16-18 (New International Version, ©2010)
[sup]16[/sup] “‘After this I will return
and rebuild David’s fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
[sup]17[/sup] that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
even all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things’
[sup]18[/sup] things known from long ago


Did you see that? "Gentiles who bear my name."

See this scripture: 1 Peter 4:16 However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name.

The name "Christian" has the name "Christ."

There are many scriptures showing that they called each other "brother" and "sister." Also "saints," and "children of God," servants in the Lord. They also acknowledged to whom they were speaking of by where the believers lived and met together. (Sorry not to be able to do a more thorough study about this, at this time.)

See in this passage how it says about people who "belonged to the Way.":

Acts 9:1-3 (New International Version 1984, ©1984)
Acts 9

Saul’s Conversion
[sup]1[/sup] Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest [sup]2[/sup] and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. [sup]3[/sup] As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him.


In Acts 24:14, Paul says in this next passage that he is a "follower of the Way, which they call a sect."

Acts 24:14 (New International Version, ©2010) [sup]14[/sup] However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,

 

[Anastacia]

More scriptures speaking of "the Way."---

Acts 19: [sup]9[/sup]But when some were becoming hardened and disobedient, speaking evil of the Way before the people, he withdrew from them and took away the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.

Acts 19: [sup]23[/sup]About that time there occurred no small disturbance concerning the Way.

Acts 22:[sup]4[/sup]"I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and putting both men and women into prisons,

Acts 24:[sup]22[/sup]But Felix, having a more exact knowledge about the Way, put them off, saying, "When Lysias the commander comes down, I will decide your case."

Some more scriptures about being called "Christians."---

Acts 11:[sup]26[/sup]and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

Acts 26: [sup]28[/sup]Agrippa replied to Paul, "In a short time you will persuade me to become a Christian."

 

[TexUs]

Acts 11:[sup]26[/sup]and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

This is what I was referring to.

Read the context and you'll find they were dubbed that because of what they were doing. They did not dub themselves that!

So, before that new name fully took hold, what did they call themselves? That's when I went into the rest of that post.
I don't think anyone would disagree with me that Jew/Gentile was an issue from 30-70AD (why'd Paul write about it) but even in the first and even more into the second and third centuries- we see it becoming less and less of an issue and more and more they seemed to realize, "Hey, we're part of the Church, we're Christians".

And you know, it almost seems like a fairly drastic move away from that line of thinking...
It almost seems like as soon as the generation that lived with Christ died off (the law-keeping Pharisees), that the gospel was able to penetrate quickly.

This is just me thinking out loud though.

 

[Anastacia]

This is what I was referring to.

Read the context and you'll find they were dubbed that because of what they were doing. They did not dub themselves that!

So, before that new name fully took hold, what did they call themselves? That's when I went into the rest of that post.
I don't think anyone would disagree with me that Jew/Gentile was an issue from 30-70AD (why'd Paul write about it) but even in the first and even more into the second and third centuries- we see it becoming less and less of an issue and more and more they seemed to realize, "Hey, we're part of the Church, we're Christians".

And you know, it almost seems like a fairly drastic move away from that line of thinking...
It almost seems like as soon as the generation that lived with Christ died off (the law-keeping Pharisees), that the gospel was able to penetrate quickly.

This is just me thinking out loud though.

Oh yeah, I knew that is what you meant...that they were dubbed that name. But still, they did not resist being called such a wonderful name. Though, I do think that the Christians first referred to themselves as those of "the Way," and weren't first dubbed that by unbelievers. What do you think?

 

[Rach1370]

Think of this in the scope of what I just addressed.

I believe Paul was fighting some of the same misconception that I posted about.

Remember, the Pharisees had bastardized what God had told them. I think over time it became ingrained in Jewish life, the Jews thought they and they alone were special and Paul was trying to do that. Paul also struggled with showing them how Christ fulfilled the law and circumcision is done in the heart, not body.

You know, I think I'm starting to understand why I both kinda agreed with you, and also had questions. I totally agree that the current Israel has been "grafted off" the tree, that just because they bear the title of Jew, does not make them saved...or even guarantee their salvation. But I think that perhaps we need to keep in mind that God may not be ultimately done with them.

[30] For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, [31] so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.
(Romans 11:30-31 ESV)

I tend to think this means that God, in His very great grace and mercy, will in time bring the "nation" of Israel...today's Jews, back to Himself.

Again, think in the scope of what I posted.

Is Israel, God's People, the church- hated??? Yes!!!

Is the State of Israel hated as well? Yes... But more so because of a land dispute with the Muslims surrounding them. They're all mad at each other over there that the infidels were able to split off a chunk of land and challenge their rule... This is a dispute of men.

It's true that Christians, even within "Christian nations" are often ridiculed and persecuted. People...and I find this interesting...when they object to Jesus, they do so with a violence that doesn't seem to make sense.
But as far as the persecutions of the Jewish nation goes...it goes far beyond a simple land dispute. In the OT we see them being horribly persecuted when they would turn away from God...just as we see today. Down through our own history, again and again, even when they were not in "Israel" they were hounded and murdered. No race, as a whole, has been so hated. People do not seem to just dislike them, they want to exterminate them...just for being Jews. It happened with Hitler and today the Muslim people want it just as much. I cannot help but feel a few things about these nasty facts. One; that the constant rage and hate directed at them may in fact be demonically inspired. And two; that having faced such constant genocide, and yet to have emerged healthy back into their ancestral lands, means that in a non salvation way, God is still watching over them.

First of all, the Christians never called themselves Christians.
If you read Acts, you'll find they were first called Christians because of the WAY THEY LIVED! (This is an entirely different topic, but an astounding point nonetheless).

What did they call themselves during this time? This is me brainstorming as well, I'm not saying I'm right, but I'm thinking with you.
Well, take note. Christ did his work, but the temple itself was still standing. He tore the veil, yes... You don't think the Jews just hung another one up?
So between 30AD and 70AD, there's a 40 year span (When the New Testament was written) that the old way of life was still very much alive.
The Jewish age didn't come to a close until the temple was destroyed- that was 70AD.

So you have this weird period of transitional time going on, when all of the NT was written. The Bible doesn't really clearly say how the writers of the NT identified themselves.
Paul makes it clear that the Jews and Gentiles are on one tree, called Israel.
I think in this 40 year period, when Paul refers to the Jews, he's speaking to the ones that believed in Christ but still struggling with letting go of the life they knew. Gentiles was simply, everyone else: they that didn't follow the Jewish life- didn't have to struggle with letting go if they never held to it in the first place.

I believe the Bible is clear that Jews, in the OT (they were still saved by faith), and the NT- are believers. When Paul speaks of a higher "honor", per say, it's because the Jews had lived under God's law all this time... Gentiles were not to feel superior to those Jews that had lived by faith much longer than they.

That's really, all the distinction between Jew and Gentile really was. After the destruction of the temple becomes a reality, I think we can see from Early Church writings that the whole "Jew" and "Gentile" thing started a rapid decline and a sense of a singular "Church" in Christ took hold.

Again, I do agree with you that the Church is now Gods people, no matter what we are called. But not once in the NT do we see the Apostles calling themselves "the new Jew". We see them trying to blur the line between Jew and Gentile, as they tried to make people understand that Jesus came for ALL, not just the Jews. But despite the blurring the divide remained enough that when Paul talks of the Jews, he was talking about Jews, and when he talks of Gentiles, he's talking of Gentiles. He talks of believers, of the Church, of brothers and sisters, of children of God, members of the body...to describe Christians, both Jew and Gentile.

I dunno! I don't suppose it hugely matters! I belong to God, and I don't really care what I'm called! It's always nice to be tossed on an idea to actually think it through a bit, though...so thanks!

 

[aspen]

I was asking though, what basis do you say we need to support Israel on?
The same as Ducky, because they need help we should help?

Supporting Israel should not be an automatic policy in the United States. We need to review our foreign policy. I do not agree with Hagee that we are required by God to support Israel. Instead, I think our decision to support them should be based on the mutual benefit of both our countries - just like all other countries we choose to support.

 

[Rach1370]

Supporting Israel should not be an automatic policy in the United States. We need to review our foreign policy. I do not agree with Hagee that we are required by God to support Israel. Instead, I think our decision to support them should be based on the mutual benefit of both our countries - just like all other countries we choose to support.

Hey Aspen!! I think Israel should be supported for a couple of reasons...
1) Basic humanity. Throw Israel a bone....the history of suffering this people have gone through...you'd think the rest of the world could leave them in peace for at least 100 years!!
2) Their legitamate right to be in their ancestral home. Despite whether or not current Israel is "Israel" or not, doesn't really matter. It's the home that God lead them to, promised them...and actually it was prophesied that Israel would be brought back to their home land after being scattered. Seems to me that God wants them there...salvation or no!!
3) Totally the lesser evil!! Lets see, do we want to support Israel, a down trodden, possibly God chosen people, or do we get behind the screaming fanatics who blow us and their own women and children up?? Mmmm, let me think!!!

People will too often, I think, go "tut tut...Israel shouldn't have done that", but step back and look at the reality for them. The Muslim nations around them don't really just want the land...they want Israel exterminated! What would our nations do if confronted by that kind of irrational hatred and violence?? Probably drop a nuke!!!

Anyway...those are my thoughts on the subject!!

 

[aspen]

Hey Aspen!! I think Israel should be supported for a couple of reasons...
1) Basic humanity. Throw Israel a bone....the history of suffering this people have gone through...you'd think the rest of the world could leave them in peace for at least 100 years!!
2) Their legitamate right to be in their ancestral home. Despite whether or not current Israel is "Israel" or not, doesn't really matter. It's the home that God lead them to, promised them...and actually it was prophesied that Israel would be brought back to their home land after being scattered. Seems to me that God wants them there...salvation or no!!
3) Totally the lesser evil!! Lets see, do we want to support Israel, a down trodden, possibly God chosen people, or do we get behind the screaming fanatics who blow us and their own women and children up?? Mmmm, let me think!!!

People will too often, I think, go "tut tut...Israel shouldn't have done that", but step back and look at the reality for them. The Muslim nations around them don't really just want the land...they want Israel exterminated! What would our nations do if confronted by that kind of irrational hatred and violence?? Probably drop a nuke!!!

Anyway...those are my thoughts on the subject!!

Hi Rach - I do not have strong feeling about this issue. I do question a few things you mentioned, but I do not really have a solution to the problems over there.

1. I think Jewish people have been through a lot, however it does not give them the right to oppress the Palestinian people. Now, that being said, I think our country has played a bigger role in oppressing Arab and Persian peoples than Israel through setting up dictators that are friendly to our country so I am really not in a place to judge Israel.

2. I do not have an opinion on this point.

3. I do not agree that Israel is the lesser evil. I believe they have nuclear weapons and will use them if they feel provoked.

I guess all I am saying is that I am tired of our leaders treating Israel as a vasser state - as if they are our burden to carry. The two untouchables for our leaders are Israel and the Federal Reserve - all I am saying is that we should review our policy.

 

[TexUs]

Though, I do think that the Christians first referred to themselves as those of "the Way," and weren't first dubbed that by unbelievers. What do you think?

I think that there's not enough documentation to tell for sure ;)


When Paul introduces himself he uses "follower of Christ Jesus" or other terminology, one could assume that's how they identified themselves?

You know, I think I'm starting to understand why I both kinda agreed with you, and also had questions. I totally agree that the current Israel has been "grafted off" the tree, that just because they bear the title of Jew, does not make them saved...or even guarantee their salvation. But I think that perhaps we need to keep in mind that God may not be ultimately done with them.

[30] For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, [31] so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.
(Romans 11:30-31 ESV)

I tend to think this means that God, in His very great grace and mercy, will in time bring the "nation" of Israel...today's Jews, back to Himself.

If you'll notice, it's a present sense, not a future sense ;)


I think there was a Remnant of Biblical Jews in those days. I think Paul is a great example of those. And I think that's who is addressed in your passage.

But as far as the persecutions of the Jewish nation goes...it goes far beyond a simple land dispute.

Just ask a Muslim why they're killing them. It's certainly not because they've turned away from God, a Muslim will tell you:
1) They stole our land
2) They are infidels


I do not disagree with you that it's demonic. The entire Islamic faith is demonic.

Again, I do agree with you that the Church is now Gods people, no matter what we are called. But not once in the NT do we see the Apostles calling themselves "the new Jew". We see them trying to blur the line between Jew and Gentile, as they tried to make people understand that Jesus came for ALL, not just the Jews. But despite the blurring the divide remained enough that when Paul talks of the Jews, he was talking about Jews, and when he talks of Gentiles, he's talking of Gentiles. He talks of believers, of the Church, of brothers and sisters, of children of God, members of the body...to describe Christians, both Jew and Gentile.

I suppose you're referring to Romans 11, primarily.


In that passage I see him talking about the very thing we are! The lines should be blurred... Yet there are those in the nationalistic state of mind that he says God blinded, will make jealous, etc, to later reconcile to himself. Again, Paul being one of them. Again I think after the Temple fell and time went on, that the Jews DID see what was happening with the Gentiles- this is why it became less and less of an issue into the first and second centuries. The law lovers either died off or converted. If that makes any sense.

Supporting Israel should not be an automatic policy in the United States. We need to review our foreign policy. I do not agree with Hagee that we are required by God to support Israel. Instead, I think our decision to support them should be based on the mutual benefit of both our countries - just like all other countries we choose to support.

Alright, I agree with that.


However- I also believe we as a country are not to police the world. I believe outreach, ministry, and help should be a function of the church, not the government.

2) Their legitamate right to be in their ancestral home. Despite whether or not current Israel is "Israel" or not, doesn't really matter. It's the home that God lead them to, promised them...and actually it was prophesied that Israel would be brought back to their home land after being scattered. Seems to me that God wants them there...salvation or no!!

Actually God did bring them back.
Fear not, for I am with you; I will bring your offspring from the east, and from the west I will gather you.



Isn't this, I dunno, the same situation Christ was talking about in Matthew 8? But guess what... Christ tells us what it is.
I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness.


It was a spiritual gathering of Israel which Christ accomplished already. Secondly, you notice that while he regathers Israel (Spiritual Israel, his church)... He KICKS OUT the "sons of the kingdom"!!!!!!
So he gathers spiritual Israel while dispersing the national Israel!


Is that not EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED?


Again, the current State of Israel has nothing to do with Biblical prophecy and is not the Israel mentioned in the Bible. It just bears the same name, and that's it.

3) Totally the lesser evil!! Lets see, do we want to support Israel, a down trodden, possibly God chosen people, or do we get behind the screaming fanatics who blow us and their own women and children up?? Mmmm, let me think!!!

Option C. Don't police the world and stick to our own affairs, leaving the Church to do ministry.


Now, I'm not saying we should stand idly by while Hitler kills millions of Jews. The situation in the Middle East is not the same situation. We are not the world police. We can help them, and get out. We've far overstepped our bounds- no wonder the world hates the USA.

Now, then... I will agree, we need to stay on Israel's good side. We don't want to make enemies with a country that has Nuclear weapons.
HOWEVER- I think we can stay on Israel's good side by simply letting them do their thing.