Who were they and where did they go?

[afaithfulone4u]

Matt 27:50-54
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
KJV

Who do you believe these saints to be?
Do you believe that they ascended up to heaven with Jesus even though there is NO mention of them doing such?
Do you believe they died again or just went back down into their graves after they walked around in the city?
Or Do you believe that they may be part of the 144,000 still alive to this day that will be sealed from harm for the first half of the great tribulation that we ARE in?
Or could they be part of the remnant of 7,000 OT saints(Whole house of Old Israel) God had reserved for Himself, that awaited Jesus' day so their dry bones could be resurrected in the earthquake that took place and the Spirit of life given them as God promised mentioned in 1 Kings 19:18, Eze.37 Romans 11:4 and who die to their flesh being saved by grace in Rev.11:13 in the earthquake just before(Jew first) the son's of God are birthed being the Man Child in Rev.12:5 who will be caught up just before the devil is thrown down for the last half of the GT?

1 Kings 19:18
18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.
KJV
Rom 11:1-5
11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.(They MUST be the same seven thousand souls)
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
KJV
As Jesus said to all the Jews, you MUST be born again so this did not include those 7,000 reserved by God of the OT.

Rev 11:12-15
12 And they(two witnesses as we know) heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand(Devout Jews reserved by grace): and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
KJV
Rev 12:5-6
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up (NOT Ascended like Jesus did) unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
KJV
Ezek 37:12-17
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
KJV

 

[ENOCH2010]

They are forever with Jesus, just like the next bunch to be resurrected in the first resurrection

 

[tgwprophet]

If I was to venture to guess... I would say they are as Moses and Elijah are, although not prophets but saints yet with the same mobility. My thoughts of the grave is a sleeping place whether it is "in" the bones or the ashes.... alseep all the same. some await a judgement ( the non-believers) some await an awakening, I think is done before or at the start of Tribulation that they too can watch this wonderous event, for if they remained asleep they wouldd miss it.

 

[afaithfulone4u]

They are forever with Jesus, just like the next bunch to be resurrected in the first resurrection

When did they go up and where is the confirmation in scripture?

If I was to venture to guess... I would say they are as Moses and Elijah are, although not prophets but saints yet with the same mobility. My thoughts of the grave is a sleeping place whether it is "in" the bones or the ashes.... alseep all the same. some await a judgement ( the non-believers) some await an awakening, I think is done before or at the start of Tribulation that they too can watch this wonderous event, for if they remained asleep they wouldd miss it.

I believe that just as the story of the rich man and Lazarus reveal to us, there are two compartments in hell. One is lower than the other and they can not pass from one place to the other. There was the place with HEAT(torment) no rest ... And Abraham's bosom where there was total rest in the LORD.
I also believe this to be the issue in life. There are those who are the higher ups and live well off and those who live in hell on earth in the lower parts that can not seem to make it in life no matter what they do.
I used to wonder how one man, say a leader of a nation, could get all of these people behind them to do their bidding as if under their power.... and then one day God gave me understanding that it is all spiritural power and God is in total control.
You may think well God does not condone evil leaders!... But the thing is that we do! We shall reap what so ever we sow.
If we raise and nourish our children of our motherland/nation without God's Word in their life, then they will grow up to be ungodly leaders, then God gives us over to our eat of our Just deserts. He gave MAN dominion over the earth and we have failed miserably. Man is made of the dust of the earth, meaning our flesh is from our motherland and God is the Father of His creation, however not all are led by His Spirit since Adam's fall and have sold themselves to be slaves to Egypt(Sinfulness) and sinful lifestyles lead to chaotic, dark life, one of poverty, and disease in the LOWER parts of the earth(GETTO, Low life). And those in the upper class are called living the HIGH LIFE.
Jesus said a curious thing to Martha and Mary concerning the resurrection. Seems they understood that there would be a resurrection in the Last day, but Jesus said I AM the RESURRECTION and those who believe upon me shall NEVER DIE. Yet he did not mean they would not sleep, for we are told by Paul that we shall not ALL SLEEP. And Jesus made it clear that sleep and die were the same thing when he talked about Lazarus' condition.
But there is two meaning's for dead and alive/living. One can mean physically dead under ground, yet sometimes it means spiritually dead as in unbelievers. Same for alive or living. Sometimes it means above ground walking around and other times it means they dead physically but alive spiritually such as Abraham and those in his bosom who had passed on but could not come back to life due to Adam's fall. They awaited Jesus' day when the debt had been paid and the Spirit of life was once again available.
John 11:23-26
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
KJV

 

[ENOCH2010]

The Bible doesn't say what happened to them, except they were saw by many people in the streets of Jerusalem. You ask what we think happened to them, I answered

 

[veteran]

Matt 27:50-54
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
KJV

Who do you believe these saints to be?
Do you believe that they ascended up to heaven with Jesus even though there is NO mention of them doing such?
Do you believe they died again or just went back down into their graves after they walked around in the city?
Or Do you believe that they may be part of the 144,000 still alive to this day that will be sealed from harm for the first half of the great tribulation that we ARE in?
Or could they be part of the remnant of 7,000 OT saints(Whole house of Old Israel) God had reserved for Himself, that awaited Jesus' day so their dry bones could be resurrected in the earthquake that took place and the Spirit of life given them as God promised mentioned in 1 Kings 19:18, Eze.37 Romans 11:4 and who die to their flesh being saved by grace in Rev.11:13 in the earthquake just before(Jew first) the son's of God are birthed being the Man Child in Rev.12:5 who will be caught up just before the devil is thrown down for the last half of the GT?

They were resurrected. Christ was the firstfruit of the resurrection as written. Every man in his own order per Paul.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Some years ago I gave it a lot of thought and my best guess is as follows

Those OT saints would now have the opportunity to become christians

They probably died again and will await the final ressurection like the rest of us

They would obviously have known they had been dead and brought back to life and maybe their testimony helped launch the early church

it also served as an example of the future ressurection and how the literal graves will be opened and we will all be brought back to life in a similar manner.

Bringing the OT Saints out of the grave at the moment of Jesus' death was further evidence that He was Messiah

.....................

However .... I admit I find your following statement intriguing ....

afaithfulone4u,
Or Do you believe that they may be part of the 144,000 still alive to this day that will be sealed from harm for the first half of the great tribulation that we ARE in?

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, ENOCH2010 and everybody.

They are forever with Jesus, just like the next bunch to be resurrected in the first resurrection

Hope you don't mind, Enoch, but I'd like to use your short post as a springboard into a subject that I think is important and pertinent to this topic in a way. What I'm about to say is not aimed directly at you:

IF the ones resurrected at Yeshua`s death, who could only be "OT saints," or Isra'elis who had relationship with God, are "forever with Jesus," then what makes them different than those who "die in the Lord" now? It seems to me that many Christians (mostly Gentile believers) will either separate the Isra'elis (often referred to as simply "Jews") from the Christians entirely, both in their present standings and in their future destinations, or they will belittle the relationship that the Isra'elis had/have with God as something less than the relationship that Gentile believers now have with God, if not altogether replaced.

Why is that? Why can't we see it as first-century believers (who were predominantly Isra'eli, even Paul) saw it? That is, that Gentile believers were grafted into the Olive Tree "contrary to nature?" Paul said,

Romans 11:24
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
KJV

I suppose that we will always be plagued with self-centeredness. It's only "human nature." The ego plays havoc with our perspective. We have always seen things as though we were a major player, but we need to be more like Yochanan the Immerser, John the Baptist, when he said,

Matthew 3:11-12
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
KJV

and

Matthew 3:14
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
KJV

and

John 3:28-30
28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
KJV

Somehow down through the centuries, we have come to accept and believe that the "Church" is greater than the Isra'el from which our faith came, but Isra'el has not been undermined, absorbed, or replaced in any way! Some have gone so far as to think that the "Church" is the Kingdom of God when it is nothing of the sort! Here's why I say this:

The word "church" comes from the Greek word "kuriakos," meaning "of the Lord." The Greek word translated as "church," however, is "ekkleesia," meaning a "called-out (group)." "Ekkleesia" is simply like our collective nouns: flock (of sheep), herd (of cattle), or school (of fish). The word was used for both called-out groups of believers in Yeshua` as the Messiah and for called-out groups of people as town councils or assemblies. The word does NOT have some special, holy meaning.

Furthermore, in the Scriptures, the word was always used of groups of people who could actually meet physically. It was the "ekkleesia" at Rome or the "ekkleesia" at Korinth or some other local congregation of people. When multiple cities were in focus, it was always "churches," not "church!" This is especially true for how the word is used in Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians, particularly chapter 12. How can members of a body be separated by huge spans of distance without damaging the body? They CAN'T! One cannot have a "finger" in Albuquerque scratching a "nose" in Timbuktu! It doesn't work! These all had to be "members" of the one body who could "care for each other!" (1 Corinthians 12:25.)

Many religious groups today came out of the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) down through the centuries. For one reason or another, they "protested" against the RCC and were thereafter called "Protestants." I believe for this reason many of the Protestant denominations have RCC influences from their history with the RCC. If the reason they protested was significant, their separation may be more distinct; however, if the reason they protested was relatively more petty, the distinction between their denomination and the RCC may be relatively small. One of the more covert tenets of the RCC is that it IS, after all, a "CATHOLIC" church, and the word "catholic" means "UNIVERSAL!"

This idea of a "universal body" of Christ came from the RCC, not from the Scriptures! It was a way that Rome could control all the churches spreading out around Europe and the world and keep them all under the "Pontifex Maximus" or "Supreme Pontiff" or "Head Bishop," the Pope! They had people so bamboozled that the worst thing that could happen to a person was that he or she would be EXCOMMUNICATED! It was a fate worse than death! As long as the "Church" was the epitome of God's acceptance in a person's life, they had control over that person! They had that person's loyalty, service, and money!

Another idea purported by the RCC was that they were the Kingdom of God on the earth! This is why they are a separate "kingdom" within the country of Italy! They are not controlled by Italy in any sense. They are not susceptible to Italy's laws, politics, or taxes! This was largely due to the control of Emperor Constantine who became a "Christian" and solidified his control over Europe and Asia through the influence of the RCC!

However, the "kingdom of God" as mentioned in the Scriptures was something that was predicted in OT prophecies and offered by Yeshua` the Messiah when He was present among the Isra'elis of His time period. It was NOT, however, passed on to another people as separate from Isra'el; it was passed on to a future people of Isra'el, another GENERATION! From that time until this, God has been building that future people, not just of Isra'eli believers but also of Gentile believers, as well. However, it is important to note that they are NOT currently the Kingdom; they are subjects FOR the COMING Kingdom! A Kingdom requires three things to exist: a rightful heir to the Kingdom, a King; a place where His Kingdom can exist, a realm; and a people who are willing to be governed by that King, His subjects. Those who are willing to be His subjects are just a third of what is needed for the Kingdom of God to exist. We await the Messiah's return, for the Messiah will be King after He has reclaimed His realm, Isra'el.

So, now I've come back to the point: If we as believers are simply the subjects for His Kingdom which He - the King - will set up when He returns and resurrects other believers who have died and passed on before us, what is the difference between those believers and believers spoken about in the Tanakh (the Old Testament)?

So, Enoch, I'm perfectly fine with your answer, and I think you are correct. They were simply part of the firstfruits resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:20-28), a "zeroeth resurrection," so to speak in terms of Revelation's two resurrections (Revelation 20:4-6).

 

[ENOCH2010]

Roy the only difference I can see in the OT believers and the believers today is they had faith in a Messiah that was to come, and we have faith in a Messiah that has come, and will come again a second time.

I'm a little different than most gentile believers,because I know the church hasn't taken the place of the apple of Gods eye. I hope and pray they except me into their called out group.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, ENOCH2010.

An EXCELLENT answer! I'm sure that Yeshua` will see to it that you are indeed accepted into their called-out group. After all, through Him and His blood, you are of the tribe of Y'hudah, just as He is!

 

[veteran]

Roy the only difference I can see in the OT believers and the believers today is they had faith in a Messiah that was to come, and we have faith in a Messiah that has come, and will come again a second time.

I'm a little different than most gentile believers,because I know the church hasn't taken the place of the apple of Gods eye. I hope and pray they except me into their called out group.

I for one accept the Biblical fact that the majority of God's Promises to Israel became Christ's Church for all... believers on Him, and not just for Israelites by birth. Apostle Paul declares this in Scripture like Ephesians 2 with the "commonwealth of Israel" title that believing Gentiles have become "nigh" (near) to through Faith on Jesus Christ.

God's Church has existed since Day 1 of this present world, and it has always been in connection with The Saviour and those who believe on Him by Faith. That is what The Promise first given to Abraham was about (which Apostle Paul confirmed in Galatians 3 about Abraham). All... those in Christ Jesus now are... "the children of Abraham" according to Apostle Paul. So if all believers on Christ be Abraham's offspring, then NO man can just throw believing Gentiles outside of that, nor outside God's Israel.

God is no respecter of persons, as written.

 

[ENOCH2010]

Roy and veteran, thank you both, I admire both of your teaching styles it's good to see that some of your teachings are sinking in.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I have a question for all you gentile christians who think you are israel and that the church is israel

- what do you do with all the unfullfilled prophecy that is directly related to israel .... the nation in the middle east.

-and what about where it says that in the New Jerusalem .... 10 of us will grab the hem of one jew to go in the city with him

We could maybe excuse some of the mistakes christians made for 1900 years when there was no Israel ..... that is why they tried to allegorize the church was israel ... even though they were wrong

today we have no excuse to think we are israel.

we are gentiles on a branch grafted into ithe olive tree which is israel.

We are not the tree , we are a branch on the tree.

israel has always been central in gods focus.

We were let in to the kingdom to make them envious .... because of thier disobedience

Israel has been punished and scattered and now is re-gathered again

 

[veteran]

Roy and veteran, thank you both, I admire both of your teaching styles it's good to see that some of your teachings are sinking in.

Thanks for that, but you probably know I must say, these are not 'my' teachings, I stay very close to the authority of God's Holy Writ.

I have a question for all you gentile christians who think you are israel and that the church is israel

- what do you do with all the unfullfilled prophecy that is directly related to israel .... the nation in the middle east.

It is for Christ's Church, because His Church is what His Salvation has always been about, from Day 1.

I don't know who you've been listening to with your kind of Bible perspective on this, but it's not aligned with God's Word. Don't you recall Apostle Paul saying there is no difference between Jew (put for born Israelites) and Gentile in Christ's Church? Apostle Paul was trained under the best Hebrew scholar of his day in the Old Testament Scriptures, and then directly by Christ Jesus by revelation, so we 'know' for certain Paul would never had said that unless it perfectly aligned within all of God's Word.

And yet if you read what I've covered about the ten lost tribes of the "house of Israel" in some of my posts, that may appear... to be outside of this concept Paul gave and instead towards a Jewish view of flesh Israel only, but it is not. The reason many are confused about this is because of lack of Old Testament study and history. Even many Jews today are confused about it.

Why did God choose Israel in the first place? He chose them to be a nation of priests, holy unto Himself. Don't you recall Apostle Peter saying that very thing to those in Christ's Church per 1 Peter 2?

Exod 19:5-6
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto Me above all people: for all the earth is Mine:
6 And ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
(KJV)

Don't you see how Apostle Peter linked that Promise first given to the people of Israel later to Christ's Church?

So when you read about God's Promises to Israel regarding future prophecy in the Old Testament prophets, most of that is directly about Christ's Church per The New Covenant. Does this New Covenant Church include both believing Israelites and Gentiles joined as one? YES! For WHAT reason though?

To FULFILL God's Plan of Salvation through His Son Jesus Christ.

This Church I speak of does not only... include New Testament era believers, but ALSO the Old Testament believers who had Faith and waited for Christ to come as promised them. This is why our Lord Jesus would say the following...

Matt 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)


Do you know what the following prophecy is about, and when it is for, especially the last verse?

Isa 11:11-13
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set His hand again the second time to recover the remnant of His people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And He shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
(KJV)

When Christ returns, that "remnant of His people" will be gathered. That "ensign" is about Christ per Isaiah 11:10 to Whom the Gentiles will seek in that time. So we cannot simply leave believing Gentiles out of that future gathering of Israel like many do today.

That last verse in bold can only be understood from Old Testament study regarding God's Birthright to Israel, which landed in final upon Joseph's younger son Ephraim, with Judah to provide the chief ruler and God's law (1 Chronicles 5; Genesis 49:10). It is for this reason today Ephraim envies Judah (Jews), and Judah vexes Ephraim. What's that about per the above matter regarding Christ's Church per The New Covenant, including believing Gentiles?

Even many believing Jews on Christ Jesus still have a difficult time recognizing God's Israel as Christ's Church per His New Covenant. Unbelieving Jews thinks the idea as blasphemy against Israel. That is actually what God's Birthright to Ephraim is about today, because Ephraim represents the 'head' of the ten tribed "house of Israel" that God separated from Judah after Solomon's days (1 Kings 11 forward). God scattered the majority of the ten tribes to the West, and they along with a small believing remnant of Jews became the founders of the western Christian nations under The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Does that include Gentiles in those nations too? YES!

-and what about where it says that in the New Jerusalem .... 10 of us will grab the hem of one jew to go in the city with him

That's Zechariah 8:23. And the actual word there is 'Judah'. But WHICH Judah? How does Christ gather His Church vs. those outside His Church coming to Jerusalem to worship Him? Remember the example Christ gave in Matt.8:11-12 pointing to Israelites who refused Him. Look at Ezekiel 44 regarding the separation between the Levite priests who went astray that are not allowed to approach Christ in that time, vs. the Zadok (the Just) who will directly serve Christ as His priests then.

We could maybe excuse some of the mistakes christians made for 1900 years when there was no Israel ..... that is why they tried to allegorize the church was israel ... even though they were wrong

The actual Biblical fact though, is that God's Israel NEVER ended. So it's impossible to say there was no Israel, when that's only in reference to a literal nation state in the holy land. If you'll pay attention in Genesis, you'll note that God named the children of Israel with that title of Israel way BEFORE... there was ever a literal nation set in the holy lands. That title of Israel began with Jacob, remember? And it has always... been a title linked to The Gospel Promise by Faith given through Abraham. That's why the meaning... of the name Israel goes way... beyond the mere idea of a literal nation state (though that is per promise too). The title of Israel is tied to God's Salvation through Christ Jesus (see Romans 9 and Ephesians 2 again per Apostle Paul).

So IF... the name Israel is tied to God's Promised Salvation through His Son Jesus Christ, does that apply to believers on Christ in ALL nations too? Yes, you bet it does! Can't help that many Jews fail to or flat refuse to understand that today. They will understand it though, once Christ returns, and many of them will bow their heads in shame, especially those of them which worked against Christ's Church. Where's that written? The above Matthew verses I quoted above, and also in Zechariah 12 with those who will mourn and weep to Christ Jesus and wish for the hills and mountains to hide them from their shame (Luke 23:27-31).

today we have no excuse to think we are israel.

Well, I just showed how you've yet to understand this matter per God's Word and history.

we are gentiles on a branch grafted into ithe olive tree which is israel.

Yes, and that's exactly what my above explanation is about. You're simply confusing the remnant of Israel according to the election of grace with non-believing Jews. Paul covered the matter of believing Israel and unbelieving Israel in that same Romans 11 chapter. Which Israel are WE as believers on Christ Jesus 'graffed' into? We are graffed in with that remnant of Israel according to the election of grace, not the unbelievers of Israel. Paul showed us a separation there between two Israels, and that's going to continue throughout Christ's future thousand years reign too.

We are not the tree , we are a branch on the tree.

Christ is The Root all which are saved are graffed to. (see also Isaiah 11:10 and Zechariah 3:8; Zechariah 6:12; Isaiah 11:1; Jeremiah 23:5; Jeremiah 33:15). We as Gentiles are graffed into the same ROOT as believing Israel. In real horticulture, when you graff onto a limb or branch, the branch graffed in along with the natural branches BOTH 'together' partake of the fatness from the same ROOT. That's why God's Israel per His Promise and New Covenant can never be separated from Christ's Church. As per The New Covenant, they are both one and the same.

So what do the unbelieving Jews and their nation state of Israel represent today? They represent God's established promise for the tribe of Judah per the Jeremiah 24 prophecy that He would bring Judah back to the holy lands, and not remove them again. And He spoke of Judah there, NOT... the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) which in majority represent Christ's Church in the west today. Then ten tribes of the "house of Israel" are a great multitude of people, too many to be numbered, many, many more than the number of Judah today. Even the Jewish historian Josephus made that kind of statement in his day regarding the scattered 10 tribes of Israel.

israel has always been central in gods focus.

As also all those who have believed as Abraham, with their having become "the children of Abraham" like Paul said in Galatians 3.

We were let in to the kingdom to make them envious .... because of thier disobedience

Israel has been punished and scattered and now is re-gathered again

Right with your first statement, wrong with your last statement.

The majority of the "house of Judah" (tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi) are still scattered outside the holy lands today. And those among the Jews in the state of Israel are mostly of those 3 tribes, with a very, very small remnant from the original ten tribes. The majority of the ten tribes have YET... to return to the holy land today, and will not until Christ's return, which is what the Ezekiel 37 'two sticks' prophecy is about.