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Why Christ Didn't Stay Dead

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Webers_Home, Apr 18, 2017.

  1. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    None of the Old Testament's sacrifices were restored to life, and in point of
    fact, quite a few of them were incinerated. Pieces and parts of some were
    even set aside to be eaten as sustenance for the Levitical priests and their
    families.

    So, if the OT's sacrifices could obtain the mercy of God without bringing
    them back to life, why then wouldn't a dead Jesus be just as effective as a
    living Jesus?

    The problem with previous stay-dead modes of sacrifice is that they couldn't
    expunge the people's personnel files; and those files are on track to be
    reviewed at the great white throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15 where
    people will be thoroughly vetted for citizenship in the new cosmos depicted
    in the 21st chapter of Revelation.

    If the records show that certain people are essentially undesirable --i.e.
    capable of terrible things, especially dishonesty --then they will be denied
    immigration to the new heavens, the new earth, and the holy city.

    Christ's crucified body was restored to life in order to make it possible for
    God to expunge people's records.

    Rom 4:25 . . He was handed over for our transgressions, and was raised
    for our justification.

    The koiné Greek word for "justification" is dikaioo (dik-ah-yo'-o) which
    essentially means to regard as innocent.

    In other words; Christ's crucifixion was sufficient to obtain forgiveness for
    people's sins; but his crucifixion alone wasn't sufficient to make it possible
    for people to obtain an acquittal.

    An acquittal can be defined as exoneration; viz: an adjudication of
    innocence, which is normally granted when there is insufficient evidence to
    convict. In other words: by means of Christ's resurrection, God was able to
    cook the books so that it appears people never did anything bad. On the
    surface; this looks very unethical, but from God's perspective it's all on the
    up and up.

    This is a serious issue under the terms and conditions of the covenant that
    Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and
    Deuteronomy. The covenant's sacrifices obtained forgiveness for the people,
    but the sacrifices did not, and could not, obtain them exoneration. No, a
    record of their disobedience remained on the books, hanging over their
    heads like a sword of Damocles. Out ahead, at the Great White Throne event
    depicted at Rev 20:11-15, those books will be opened for review.

    Q: Don't Catholics obtain exoneration when they go to confession?

    A: The scope of the Roman church's reconciliatory process is somewhat
    limited. It's primarily designed for absolution (1John 1:9) i.e. while it
    forgives a sinner's debt to God's law, and cleanses what is sometimes called
    the stain of sin, it does nothing to expunge the sinner's record.

    Justification, on the other hand, as per the koiné Greek word dikaioo,
    completely deletes the offender's criminal history; i.e. dikaioo wipes their
    records so clean and efficiently that there is nothing left that can in any way
    be used to prove that the sinner has ever been anything less than 100%
    innocent.

    Now, the advantage of the kind of justification I'm talking about is that
    sinners need obtain it only once because from thence, God stops keeping
    records on them.

    2Cor 5:19 . .God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not
    counting their trespasses against them

    The koiné Greek word translated "counting" is logizomai (log-id'-zom-ahee)
    which means to take an inventory.

    Rom 4:8 . . Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord does not record.

    /
     
  2. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    CCC 1031 . . As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the
    Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire.

    The "elect" spoken of in CCC 1031 need not be concerned about a purifying
    fire seeing as how God keeps no records of their faults; neither their lesser
    nor their greater.

    2Cor 5:19 . .God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not
    counting their trespasses against them

    The koiné Greek word translated "counting" is logizomai (log-id'-zom-ahee)
    which means to take an inventory.

    Rom 4:8 . . Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord does not record.

    Q: God is letting the elect slide?

    A: In a manner of speaking, yes, because Christ took the elect's persons,
    and their records, with him to the cross.

    Isa 53:6 . .We had all gone astray like sheep, all following our own way;
    but The Lord laid upon him the guilt of us all.

    Rom 4:25 . .He was handed over for our transgressions.

    Rom 6:3 . . Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ
    Jesus were baptized into his death?

    Gal 2:20 . . I am crucified with Christ

    Col 3:2 . . For you have died, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

    Along with the benefit of Christ's crucifixion is the additional benefit of his
    resurrection.

    Rom 4:25 . . He was raised for our justification.

    The koiné Greek word for "justification" is dikaioo (dik-ah-yo'-o) which
    essentially means to regard as innocent, i.e. to acquit.

    The word in Rom 4:25 is grammatically singular. i.e. it is not like this:

    "He was raised for our justifications."

    In other words: the innocence made available by Christ's resurrection is a
    permanent stamp of approval.

    Heb 10:14 . . For by one offering he has perfected for all time those who
    are sanctified.

    "those who are sanctified" refers to the elect spoken of in CCC 1031,
    because the Greek word is hagiazo (hag-ee-ad'-zo) which essentially means
    to set something aside for God; i.e. consecrate and/or dedicate.

    I think it goes without saying that people "perfected for all time" by Christ's
    crucifixion and his resurrection, would be overdone by additional
    purification; especially when not even God himself can find something in the
    elect requiring heat treatment.

    Rom 8:33 . .Who will bring a charge against God’s chosen ones? It is God
    who acquits us.

    /
     
  3. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    When Christ passed away on the cross, he was essentially the embodiment
    of every sin that the whole world ever committed in the past, every sin the
    whole world is now committing, and every sin that the whole world will ever
    commit in the future; which includes the sins of people not yet born. (Isa
    53:1-6, John 1:29, 1John 2:2)

    Now; here's my question. Did Jesus come back from death with those sins,
    i.e. how many sins of the whole world's sins did he retain unpunished?

    Well; I think that both sides of the aisle can readily agree that Jesus came
    back from death with zero of the world's past, present, and future sins
    unpunished; yes? Yes.

    Now, supposing I posit that God has devised an ingenious way to regard me
    as His son Jesus, i.e. when His son Jesus passed away on the cross, I too
    passed away. (Rom 6:3)

    Were that so, then when His son Jesus rose from the dead, I too rose from
    the dead (Col 2:12). And if he rose from the dead with zero sins unpunished,
    then I too rose from the dead with zero sins unpunished; which would mean,
    of course, that I would retain zero sins requiring treatment in a cleansing
    fire; viz: a purgatory.

    If you can appreciate how unreasonable and unnecessary it would be to
    subject God's son Jesus to a cleansing fire, then you can easily appreciate
    how unreasonable and unnecessary it would be to subject me to a cleansing
    fire.

    /
     
  4. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    how might you perceive some current sin of mine that i do not repent of, and plan on keep doing? Iow if Christ has covered all of my sins, present and future included, why do i need to worry about sin at all, in this model? ty
     
  5. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    First off I should point out that the information posted in #1, #2, and #3 is
    of no benefit to skeptics.

    Mark 16:16 . .Whoever does not believe will be condemned.

    Rev 21:8 . . As for the unbelieving-- their place will be in the fiery lake of
    burning sulfur.

    However, if you're one of the lucky dogs whom God regards as His son
    Jesus, then your intent to keep on doing what you like and not repent, will
    put you in no danger of the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:11-15
    seeing as how every bad thing you did in the past, every bad thing you are
    doing now, and ever bad thing you might do in the future-- either in
    thought, word, or deed --was all adequately dealt with by means of Christ's
    crucifixion and his resurrection.

    Col 3:1-3 . . Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts
    on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your
    minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is
    now hidden with Christ in God.

    /
     
  6. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ok ty. I'm...skeptical. :)
    don't forget that Rev verse includes liars, ok, not that i think you are being intentionally deceitful.

    You seem like a nice person, and i hope you come to understand that this is not true, according to much Scripture.
     
  7. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    What about the ones you dont know of. Do you think God keeps a list. Repentance is to change one mind. God im wrong you are right. Its funny how teh "heathen" are not concerned with sin when they should be, where as christians whou are not supposed to be are. How many times does Jesus need to be nailed up on that cross for you.

    Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
    Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
    Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

    Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

    If you are concerend with sin how can you say you are free. I may not be free of this flesh, but Jesus didnt die to save my flesh.

    Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
     
  8. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    well, i would say that "a sin that i will not rebound from" ("repentance" is a religious characterization imo; there is no "penance" required in Scripture, and these are surely the "works" that will not save you) implies that i do know, so you are asking a different question, but my answer would be that if you are hearing the Word you will be made aware of those sins, too.

    hmm. How can you still be sinning if you have changed your mind? And any "heathen" who recognize when they have harmed someone and are willing to apologize, show contrition, and make it right are ok with me, regardless of whether they choose to call it sin or have done some altar works to declare for Jesus, and now consider themselves "Christian." So imo you make a distinction that even the Book may not recognize, if i understand "many will cry 'Lord'" correctly anyway.

    Seems to me that "How many times?" is also a different subject, even if it does point to the same concept. If you cannot confess your mistakes one to another, and humble yourself, iow follow Christ's example as we are commanded, then what sacrifice is left for you? Imo you are relegated to believing that "if you're one of the lucky dogs whom God regards as His son Jesus, then your intent to keep on doing what you like and not repent, will put you in no danger of the lake of brimstone." Hardly what made David the apple of God's eye, imo. While he certainly did not go around dwelling on sin, it seems to me that he was quick to recognize when he had, and rebound from it.


    So while i like this, it must personally be contrasted with those who cry "Lord, Lord" imo, and the difference in the two should be contemplated. After all, why do these not get credit for "going through Christ?"

    Ha well, you may not be free of your soul or your spirit either, for that matter, lol. While we might certainly forgive others for "sins" they don't know of, this describes children and the simple, perhaps, but we make a distinction, "hypocrite," for the others. And while we are surely called to forgive them as well, this speaks to our souls, and not theirs, yes?

    So there remains a dichotomy, it seems to me, that is more or less encompassed in the term "hypocrite," and i have always assumed that a hypocrite was unaware of, blind to, their hypocrisy--but i guess that is an assumption, and maybe i'm wrong about that?
     
  9. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    Hmm you just dont get it, Mt dad and I had this discussion yesterday,

    Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
    Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
    Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

    who does HE convict of sin?/

    The World..

    Are you still part of this word or are you part of the kingdom of heaven. and why does He convict them of sin

    because they believe not on me;

    As I have said so many times before, If you could live in this world without sin, you would not need Jesus and this scripture would be made of non effect

    Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
    Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
    Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

    Because your name would be there too.
     
  10. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    The trick is: I need not produce 100% sinless perfection in thought, word,
    and deed in order to qualify for heaven. No; I don't, not when God reckons
    me 100% innocent by means of the acquittal that's available via Christ's
    resurrection.

    The innocence that I've been talking about isn't a personal innocence, no,
    it's an accounted innocence, i.e. an innocence on the books which is where it
    matters the most.

    Rev 20:11-12 . . I saw a large white throne and the one who was sitting
    on it. The earth and the sky fled from His presence and there was no place
    for them. I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the
    throne, and scrolls were opened. The dead were judged according to their
    deeds, by what was written in the scrolls.

    Now, seeing as how every bad thing I ever did in life and/or ever will do is
    stricken from the record by means of Christ's resurrection; then there will be
    nothing left on those scrolls to use as evidence to prove beyond a sensible
    doubt that I have ever been anything less than 100% perfect in thought,
    word, and deed.

    Same with the passage below:

    Rev 21:27 . . Nothing unclean will enter the holy city Jerusalem, nor
    anyone who does abominable things or tells lies.

    Seeing as how every bad thing I ever did and/or ever will do in life is
    stricken from the record by means of Christ's resurrection; then there is
    nothing left to use as evidence to prove beyond a sensible doubt that I have
    ever been anything less than 100% clean and/or 100% honest in thought,
    word, and deed.

    God's accounting methods may seem a bit strange, perhaps even a bit
    fraudulent, and no doubt would never hold up in a court of law; but I really
    don't care about that just so long as it works for Him.

    Rom 8:33 . .Who will bring a charge against God’s chosen ones? It is God
    who acquits us.

    /
     
  11. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    seems like you are implying that once one crosses some threshold they are no longer convicted of sin that they commit? And that "Jesus will save you from your sin" is the reason? And i don't know, but it seems to me that the formula laid out for Grace is not employed there, and no confessing sins one to another is even required in that model; but maybe i am misunderstanding you.
     
  12. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    i completely agree, when you avail yourself of It, that is; which proclaiming "Lord, Lord" as a remedy for your sins does not satisfy. This might be seen as "Christ being lifted up like a Snake on a Pole," which Christ Himself said must happen--interesting language there, imo, not "would," but "must"--and i can only suggest that the OT parable of the "Snake on a Pole" in the Wanderings be reflected upon, and that the lesson of Nehushtan--which is strangely occluded in Scripture, if you notice; the name "Nehushtan" is not used in the Wanderer story, but must be found several chapters removed, and is almost a side note in Kings--be understood for its significance.

    Of course you will not produce 100% sinless perfection in thought, word, and deed, all of the time; nonetheless, we are commanded to "Be perfect, as I am perfect." I suggest that this might reflect a heart that does not even think about sin, except in a quick reference in the act of creation, ie "ok, will this action, that i am led to do, hurt anyone?" iow really it should become almost a subconscious reference, and in my experience at least does not even actually manifest in myself asking myself that question, so much as myself acting in some (hopefully creative) manner, absorbed with the doing of it, and suddenly "hearing" a warning that then makes me cognizant that i am about to mess up some kind of way (that, strangely, is hardly ever interpreted as "sin" by anyone privy to the particular creation process, and i often find myself sparring with a co-creator over some little thing that has been revealed to me, that perhaps i cannot even explain.

    It is not a "sin" to harvest all of the way out to the edge of our field, see; nonetheless we are directed to leave some for gleaning. (let the reader understand)
     
  13. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    Its not the same as a demand, and we cannot perferct ourselves, man have beat them sleves with whips, locked them selves in monastries, even women, some in te hphilipines nail and tie themselves to crosses each easter, thibking somehow it please God and stops them sinning. Its all te hflesh, does nothing but undermine all His good works thinking that we somehow can do better.

    1Pe_4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

    Eph_1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    Gal_5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

    Probably most important

    1Co_6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    Rom_8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
     
  14. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    well true--or i don't know about "true," i'm not qualified there, but at least i agree with all that--one cannot perfect themselves, but nonetheless there is still a way to be perfect, as He is perfect.
    Imo this is just a way to restate that following Christ makes one perfect; meaning that you cannot accept Christ with your mouth, as is outlined in many parables.

    Imo this is even honored in the mundane, at least among familiars, friends, and most peers; someone who seems genuinely contrite and apologetic is forgiven. And who does not forgive those who do their best to remedy any wrongs they have committed? Pentecostals, maybe, but that's about it. Little children, let no one lead you astray; he who is doing the righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous,
     
  15. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    I would view the shortcoming as a behavior you have chosen to overidentify with for reasons unknown. I think we all need to worry about overidentifying with our behavior.
     
  16. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    well but that does not answer the question; am i forgiven of this sin?
     
  17. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Sin that is mistaken for identity is not forgiven because it is misidentified. If I were to identify myself as the President of the United States, I would fall short because in reality, I am not the President; yet, if I truly believed it to be true, no one could convince me otherwise and I would remain a prisoner of my delusion. The same is true with sin misidentified as part of self or identity
     
  18. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    hmm. interesting. ok, to this i would say that you have chosen what might be perceived as a harmless delusion for an example, wherein we might even characterize the deluded as "mentally challenged" or whatever, essentially "not accountable," and i think the lesson might hit closer to home if you were to come up with an example that more people could relate to?
     
  19. Chase200mph

    Chase200mph New Member

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    Sin, the property of God who preordained the history of man. It's hard to argue what doesn't seem to exist. It is possible to prove a negative however. Yet I'm drawn to a inductive argument here because the Christian standpoint always begs the proverbial question.

    Argument from ignorance (from Latin:argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance represents "a lack of contrary evidence"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa).
    If a component offers a contradiction and the adhere is an argument based in that you cannot know because there isn't enough information....then that component becomes compliant to what is known and what is known is only an empty claim exists that sin exists and that it does so in contradiction.
     
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