Why do people believe in a rapture?

[keras]

[SIZE=medium]Why do people believe in a rapture? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]It is taken as read, that this means a rapture removal to heaven of all Christian people, either before the Seals, during the last 7 years, or at the Return. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Unfortunately for those who would like to be outta here before anything nasty happens, there is no scriptural support for such a belief. The same applies for the mid-trib theory. But at the Return of Jesus, there will be a great lifting up and gathering of all the ‘elect, or chosen’, as Matthew 24:31 puts it and as Paul details in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Those who adhere to the idea of a pre wrath rapture, often cite ‘[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]we are not appointed to wrath’[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. Firstly, we are told many times, that we must face trials and tests in order to prove our faith. But the real truth of how the Lord will save His people from His wrath, is by His protection. I can post 25 + verses that prove this is what is promised, not removal. Just read Psalm 23 and Psalm 91, they give amazing assurance that the Lord will protect and keep safe all who hold fast to their faith in Him. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Then there is the real truth of what God plans for His people. The story goes back to Abraham, whom God chose to be the father of a people who would be His witnesses and become the light to the nations. The ancient Israelites failed in this task and God scattered them among the nations, but with the promise of their eventual gathering and redemption. We know for the N.T., that[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] ‘not all of Israel are true descendants of Abraham’[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], it is therefore, true Christian believers ‘[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]from every tribe, nation and language’[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], Revelation 7:9, that now comprise the Israel of God. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]So to answer the question: People who believe in a rapture to heaven have been fooled by false teaching, just as Jesus said: Matthew 24:11, would happen and Paul says in 2 Timothy 4:3-4, that people will listen to those bad teachers and be deceived by them. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Sadly, millions have been deluded into thinking that to just believe in God is enough and they need do nothing else in order to be taken directly to heaven.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]But when the fiery trial comes, as 1 Peter 4:12 tells us it will, those who expected to be gone, will be shocked and terrified as the worldwide disaster of that Day, Luke 21:35, strikes down the ungodly, Hebrews 10:27, and all who fail to stand firm in their faith. [/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Matthew 24:10[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Many prophesies tell how the Lord will settle His people into all of the Holy Land, where they will at last be the people He always intended. These people will prepare the world for the Millennium Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 66:18-21[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Then, after all that is prophesied to happen in the last days has taken place, the Lord will Return and bring back His righteous people to Jerusalem, all those who refused the mark of the beast and those from their place of safety. Revelation 12:14 The martyred saints will be resurrected at this time, Revelation 20:4, but the rest of the dead await the Great White Throne judgement at the end of the Millennium. [/SIZE]



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[Marcus O'Reillius]

You no more know the real truth than you can separate Israel from the Church in Scripture, or figure out on which "day" Isaiah 30:26 comes. (keras wrongly attributes that verse to the Day of the Lord, and calls for an exploding sun to melt the earth... and he's never retracted this simple, double error of his.)

Your pointedly barbed attack belies your own take rather than any truth.

So since you have a real problem with figuring out applicability, your criticism is nothing more than vinegar.

Thus your "teaching", meant to destroy a belief, is meant to melt the pearls of wisdom before anyone could possible toss them to you, saving you the trouble of trampling them underfoot in the mud.

Rapture verbs—the general English meanings of the Greek words used:

• MT 24:31 to come upon, come after
• MT 24:40 to take over, to receive, to inherit
• MK 13:27 to come upon, come after
• MK 16:19 to carry up
• LK 9:51 a taking up: ascension
• LK 17:34-35 to take over, to receive, to inherit
• LK 24:51 to take up, raise
• JN 14:3 to take over, to receive, to inherit
• AC 1:9-11 to lift up
• 1CO 15:51-54 to change
• 2CO 4:14 to waken, to raise up
• 2CO 12:2-4 to seize, to catch up, to snatch away
• 1TH 4:16-17 to seize, to catch up, to snatch away
• 2TI 2:18 (resurrection) a standing up, a raising up, rising
• 1TI 3:16 to take up, raise
• HEB 11:5 to transfer, change
• REV 12:5 to seize, to catch up, to snatch away

It is interesting to note the similarity between receiving Christ as also to be taken up with the idea of inheritance.

 

[keras]

When you or anyone can provide a Bible verse that unambiguously states that God will take people up to live in heaven, then you will have some credibility.
For now, you have none, as nothing you have presented proves a rapture as you see it.
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[Marcus O'Reillius]

When you can provide a Bible verse that unambiguously states that God will pick people up to the clouds and then drop them right back down to the earth, then somebody might believe your pet theory.

But you have no credibility when you malign Isaiah 30:26 to be a CME on the Day of the Lord.

Rapture is in the Bible.
It comes from the Latin rapio, which is a translation from harpazo - and that can be found here:

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up (G726 - harpazō) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

As far as being in Heaven, Jesus said we will be taken to the "barn" of Heaven; that we will go where He is now; and the Great Multitude are before the Throne of God the Father in Heaven.

So it's not that there are no verses which show us in Heaven; there is just your confusion over those verses which concludes that we don't and you believe what you think.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Not only does Paul say we will be caught up to be with the Lord forever, he says to encourage one another with that news.

keras, on the other hand, seeks to destroy that hope.

 

[ATP]

I would think "taken away" refers to rapture in Matt 24:39. The word "airó" means to raise, take up, lift. This passage is an idiom for rapture..

Matt 24:39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

 

[ATP]

Why would we be caught up in the clouds only to be brought right back down again? :wacko:

 

[keras]

Why would we be caught up in the clouds only to be brought right back down again? :wacko:

Matthew 24:30-31 says Jesus will gather His people at His Return. From the four winds and from the far corners of the heavens. As He has just come from heaven with His angel army, this cannot refer to heaven itself and we see in Rev 7:1, the four winds are earthly. He will gather all who have kept their faith to join Him during the Millennium reign.
This totally refutes any idea of a rapture to heaven and Pauls statement in 1 Thess 4:15-17 also refers to this rising to meet Jesus as He comes down to Jerusalem.

Because anyone who grips onto false doctrines becomes locked into that idea, I know how difficult it is to even consider the real Bible truth of the matter, but getting to the truth is of vital importance and no one should be swayed by ideas that don't have scriptural support.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

As He has just come from heaven with His angel army, this cannot refer to heaven itself and we see in Rev 7:1,

False premise: false conclusion.

An error in logic from rabbi keras.

keras assumes Jesus has just come from Heaven with His Angel Army.

1. The Angels are not pictured as His Army.
2. In Matthew 24:31 - Angels do not fight, but harvest.

It is my thinking that the 144,000 serve as Jesus' Army, and they don't come with Jesus on the Day of the Lord, but they do go wherever He goes after that - Rev 14:4.

In the Rapture/Wrath model, the 144,000 do fight on the Day of the Lord.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Pauls statement in 1 Thess 4:15-17 also refers to this rising to meet Jesus as He comes down to Jerusalem.

Because anyone who grips onto false doctrines becomes locked into that idea, I know how difficult it is to even consider the real Bible truth of the matter, but getting to the truth is of vital importance and no one should be swayed by ideas that don't have scriptural support.

Remember rabbi keras says NO ONE SHOULD BE SWAYED BY IDEAS THAT DON"T HAVE SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT.

This is right after he says Jesus comes down to Jerusalem in 1Th 4:15-17. IT DOESN'T SAY THAT!

 

[ATP]

Matthew 24:30-31 says Jesus will gather His people at His Return. From the four winds and from the far corners of the heavens. As He has just come from heaven with His angel army, this cannot refer to heaven itself and we see in Rev 7:1, the four winds are earthly.

Some might say Matt 24:29-31 is a dual prophecy, rapture and also second coming.
Distress and great distress are not the same in those days, no? Matt 24:21 NIV, Matt 24:29 NIV.
You're also placing the sixth seal AFTER trumpets and bowls?

 

[keras]

Marcus, its becoming easier to make you look foolish.
You say it isn't His angel army coming with Him? Look at Jude 14-15 and Revelation 19:14
You say Jesus is not Returning to Jerusalem? Try looking at Zechariah 14:4.

ATP, Matthew 24:21 refers to the time the Anti-Christ places his image in the Temple. Verse 29 describes the Return of Jesus., 3 1/2 years later.
The Sixth Seal is the next prophesied event we can expect. Not until the last 3 1/2 years does the Trumpets and Bowls of the G.T. occur.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Marcus, its becoming easier to make you look foolish.
You say it isn't His angel army coming with Him? Look at Jude 14-15 and Revelation 19:14

Okay rabbi keras - here again, I know my Bible and you cite the reference but not the words.

You can't make anyone look foolish when you have no credibility.

There is nothing in Jude or Revelation to prevent the 144,000 - who go wherever Jesus goes - from being His Army. And since Rev 14:4 is true, the 144,000 are there with Jesus on the Day of the Lord's Wrath after the Rapture, and at the end at Armageddon.

Jesus doesn't need ten million Angels: He's got the best of the best. 144,000 will do.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Verse 29 describes the Return of Jesus., 3 1/2 years later.

Wow rabbi keras - way to "SHORTEN" the Great Tribulation! LOL

 

[keras]

Wow rabbi keras - way to "SHORTEN" the Great Tribulation! LOL

You say you know the Bible? You sure miss a lot and what you hit you make to suit your fanciful notions.
The Great Trib is just 1260 days, or 42 months, or 3 1/2 years. Daniel and Revelation confirm this. If you read them without your preconceived ideas, maybe the truth will shine into a dark place.

 

[keras]

Jesus doesn't need ten million Angels: He's got the best of the best. 144,000 will do. Quote Marcus

Actually He doesn't need anyone, as He destroys the attacking armies by the Sword of His Word. Rev 19:15
But that isn't the role of the 144,000. Their task is to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. We follow the Lord now and they will too, doing His will by telling the world about the Lord. Just as the 72 did in Luke 10:1-10.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

You say you know the Bible? You sure miss a lot and what you hit you make to suit your fanciful notions.
The Great Trib is just 1260 days, or 42 months, or 3 1/2 years. Daniel and Revelation confirm this. If you read them without your preconceived ideas, maybe the truth will shine into a dark place.

Silly rabbi - the Great Tribulation is shortened.

You know, what you cry against is what you are. Fanciful notions.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

the 144,000. Their task is to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus.

Another "fanciful notion" (quoting the rabbi) about something that is not found in Scripture at all!

 

[ATP]

The Sixth Seal is the next prophesied event we can expect. Not until the last 3 1/2 years does the Trumpets and Bowls of the G.T. occur.

So the signs in the sun, moon stars and earthquake are different for Matt 24:29, and Rev 6:12-14? I don't understand. So it happens twice?

Silly rabbi - the Great Tribulation is shortened.

Some might say the 3.5 years is the shortened period. God already knew the length of great trib beforehand. Rev 13:5.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

ATP: How long can you go without gasoline, electricity, water, and sewer? How long can you go without food?

There and a half years? Well Superman, now try doing that while.they're hunting you down for the 'Daniel test' of worship or die.

The word "shortened" is an agricultural term for when they "dock" an animal's tail. It is a sharp, abrupt end of very little length.

I expect the same of the Great Tribulation, numbering it in several weeks to a few months. Only the Father knows when the SINGULAR sun/moon/star event comes preceding the SINGULAR Day of the Lord