Why do People Pray for the Dead?

[Aunty Jane]

It seems to me from studying the scriptures, that death is the end of life, not the beginning of another one.
The Jews believed was that death sent one to "sheol" which they themselves interpret as "the Grave". Every human went to this same place.
In the Greek Septuagint, (Hebrew to Greek OT) "sheol" is translated "hades", which is not what Christendom believes about where the dead go. "Hades" has been given a more sinister meaning, especially by the Catholic church which interpreted several Bible words as "hell".....none of which depict a place of eternal torment.

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10 have this to say.....
"5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten.

6 Also their love, as well as their hate, as well as their provocation has already been lost, and they have no more share forever in all that is done under the sun.

10 Whatever your hand attains to do [as long as you are] with your strength, do; for there is neither deed nor reckoning, neither knowledge nor wisdom in the grave [sheol], where you are going." (Jewish Tanakh)

So this is what the Jews believed, and we have to remember that Jesus was Jewish and was taught Jewish scripture. He did not have a belief in life after death, (as in some part of man that survives death).....death meant the end of life, and all the dead return to the ground, just as God told Adam...
Genesis 3:19...Tanakh...
"With the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, until you return to the ground, for you were taken therefrom, for dust you are, and to dust you will return."
There is no teaching of life after death in the OT.....death is just death....the opposite of life.

This again is backed up by Solomon in Ecclesiastes 3:19-20...
"19 For there is a happening for the children of men, and there is a happening for the beasts-and they have one happening-like the death of this one is the death of that one, and all have one spirit, and the superiority of man over beast is nought, for all is vanity.
20 All go to one place; all came from the dust, and all return to the dust."

Animals breathe the same air, share the same animating "spirit", and die the same death as we do. We have no superiority over the animals.
There is no mention of an afterlife at all......in fact when God told Adam he would die...that is exactly what he meant. So where do we get the idea that a conscious part of man survives death to go somewhere else? Where does the notion of an 'immortal soul' come from if it is not in the Bible? There is not a single passage of scripture where these words appear side by side.

If people are "in the dust of the earth" how do they live again?
By resurrection, (literally "rising or standing up again")which is what the Jews believed. They were to 'sleep in death' until Messiah came and established his Kingdom over the earth, and then he would bring the dead back to life, right here on earth.

If the dead "sleep" in death, until Jesus restores them to life, as he believed and demonstrated his ability to do just that during his earthly ministry, then why are people praying for the dead, who "sleep" in the safest possible place, unaware of all that has transpired since they passed away. Their resurrection will bring them back to that conscious moment when death took them, with no memory of the passage of time because time ceases to exist in sheol/hades.

What did Jesus say....?
John 5:28-29...
"Do not be amazed at this; for a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come out: those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the bad deeds to a resurrection of judgment." (NASB)
All of the dead are called from the same place....their "tombs"....that is because they are all still in them. (Acts 24:15)

There is no judgment at death, only the living will undergo judgement at Christ's return (Matthew 25:31-33).....so only after the resurrection will the dead will there be those counted worthy of life, (having proved faithful to death)....and there will also be the "unrighteous", most of whom will never have heard of Jehovah or his Christ. A period of education and judgment will give all those who died in ignorance, an opportunity to get to know the true God, and bring their lives into harmony with his will during the 1,000 years of Kingdom rule.

What of the incorrigibly wicked? Jesus consigned those to a place called "Gehenna", which is erroneously translated "hell" in many Bibles. "Gehenna" is the "lake of fire" which is called in the Revelation "the second death".....that is because, unlike the 'first' death (hades) from which the dead are raised, this lake of fire is a symbol of everlasting destruction....it is a death from which no one returns....whatever is thrown into Gehenna is never seen again.
As Jesus said....Matthew 10:28...
"And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]." (NASB)
The whole person is "destroyed" in Gehenna....they are not conscious, nor are they tortured forever.....they will simply not exist. They will go back to where they were before their parents conceived them.....as if they never existed.

So why pray for the dead? It's the living who need our prayers.

 

[Two-Edged Sword]

The majority of denominations that believe in praying for the dead hold to the Catholic belief of "purgatory". If you believe in purgatory then praying for the dead is sensible.

Some people see the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19–26 substantiating a purgatory. We need to understand that Jesus only preached in parables (Mark 4:34) and parables can be either true or fictional, they are stories used to portray something else. I would argue this story should not read literally and other passages don't support the souls of the unsaved awake prior to Judgement day and their judgement then.

Another verse which some feel verifies a purgatory is 1 Corinthians 3:11–15 where our works built on the foundation of Christ will be judged by fire and the “builder will be saved, but only as through fire” but the verse states “for the Day will disclose it” referring to a single day (Judgement Day).

 

[quietthinker]

Why do People Pray for the Dead?
I suppose it's because they can't pray for themselves. Strange isn't it? If they've gone to heaven you think they'd be putting in a good word for us while we continue to drop bombs on each other and they don't need praying for anyway and if they've gone to hell maybe they need the heat to be turned down or perhaps the ration of water drops on their tongue to be increased. I mean, didn't they learn about unions in a previous life? It's a mystery to me.

Oh of course, there's the ones floating around in the ether somewhere breaking rocks with sledge hammers without a supply of beer and listening to the accusing voices of 'I told you so'.
I'm sure God and the angels get a real kick out of that one!

 

[ScottA]

It seems to me from studying the scriptures, that death is the end of life, not the beginning of another one.
The Jews believed was that death sent one to "sheol" which they themselves interpret as "the Grave". Every human went to this same place.
In the Greek Septuagint, (Hebrew to Greek OT) "sheol" is translated "hades", which is not what Christendom believes about where the dead go. "Hades" has been given a more sinister meaning, especially by the Catholic church which interpreted several Bible words as "hell".....none of which depict a place of eternal torment.

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10 have this to say.....
"5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten.

6 Also their love, as well as their hate, as well as their provocation has already been lost, and they have no more share forever in all that is done under the sun.

10 Whatever your hand attains to do [as long as you are] with your strength, do; for there is neither deed nor reckoning, neither knowledge nor wisdom in the grave [sheol], where you are going." (Jewish Tanakh)

So this is what the Jews believed, and we have to remember that Jesus was Jewish and was taught Jewish scripture. He did not have a belief in life after death, (as in some part of man that survives death).....death meant the end of life, and all the dead return to the ground, just as God told Adam...
Genesis 3:19...Tanakh...
"With the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, until you return to the ground, for you were taken therefrom, for dust you are, and to dust you will return."
There is no teaching of life after death in the OT.....death is just death....the opposite of life.

This again is backed up by Solomon in Ecclesiastes 3:19-20...
"19 For there is a happening for the children of men, and there is a happening for the beasts-and they have one happening-like the death of this one is the death of that one, and all have one spirit, and the superiority of man over beast is nought, for all is vanity.
20 All go to one place; all came from the dust, and all return to the dust."

Animals breathe the same air, share the same animating "spirit", and die the same death as we do. We have no superiority over the animals.
There is no mention of an afterlife at all......in fact when God told Adam he would die...that is exactly what he meant. So where do we get the idea that a conscious part of man survives death to go somewhere else? Where does the notion of an 'immortal soul' come from if it is not in the Bible? There is not a single passage of scripture where these words appear side by side.

If people are "in the dust of the earth" how do they live again?
By resurrection, (literally "rising or standing up again")which is what the Jews believed. They were to 'sleep in death' until Messiah came and established his Kingdom over the earth, and then he would bring the dead back to life, right here on earth.

If the dead "sleep" in death, until Jesus restores them to life, as he believed and demonstrated his ability to do just that during his earthly ministry, then why are people praying for the dead, who "sleep" in the safest possible place, unaware of all that has transpired since they passed away. Their resurrection will bring them back to that conscious moment when death took them, with no memory of the passage of time because time ceases to exist in sheol/hades.

What did Jesus say....?
John 5:28-29...
"Do not be amazed at this; for a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come out: those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the bad deeds to a resurrection of judgment." (NASB)
All of the dead are called from the same place....their "tombs"....that is because they are all still in them. (Acts 24:15)

There is no judgment at death, only the living will undergo judgement at Christ's return (Matthew 25:31-33).....so only after the resurrection will the dead will there be those counted worthy of life, (having proved faithful to death)....and there will also be the "unrighteous", most of whom will never have heard of Jehovah or his Christ. A period of education and judgment will give all those who died in ignorance, an opportunity to get to know the true God, and bring their lives into harmony with his will during the 1,000 years of Kingdom rule.

What of the incorrigibly wicked? Jesus consigned those to a place called "Gehenna", which is erroneously translated "hell" in many Bibles. "Gehenna" is the "lake of fire" which is called in the Revelation "the second death".....that is because, unlike the 'first' death (hades) from which the dead are raised, this lake of fire is a symbol of everlasting destruction....it is a death from which no one returns....whatever is thrown into Gehenna is never seen again.
As Jesus said....Matthew 10:28...
"And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]." (NASB)
The whole person is "destroyed" in Gehenna....they are not conscious, nor are they tortured forever.....they will simply not exist. They will go back to where they were before their parents conceived them.....as if they never existed.

So why pray for the dead? It's the living who need our prayers.

Aunty,

Much of your post information is in error, even though that does not appear to be the topic, but rather "why do people pray for the dead?"

I don't know the history of the doctrine, but I can imagine it came as a result of realizing that our Savior is not limited by time. I would not discount anyone for having such a great faith in His abilities--nothing is impossible with God.

 

[Enoch111]

It seems to me from studying the scriptures, that death is the end of life, not the beginning of another one.

That could not be further from the truth. Life after death -- in almost every culture -- was and is a very important matter. For Christians, life after death is well explained in Scripture and is a key doctrine. So you have either skimmed the Bible or simply ignored what is written.

Getting back to praying for the dead, it was a practice during the time of the Jewish Maccabees, and somehow became a part of Catholic beliefs. There is nothing in the Bible to encourage this.

 

[quietthinker]

That could not be further from the truth. Life after death -- in almost every culture -- was and is a very important matter. For Christians, life after death is well explained in Scripture and is a key doctrine. So you have either skimmed the Bible or simply ignored what is written.

Getting back to praying for the dead, it was a practice during the time of the Jewish Maccabees, and somehow became a part of Catholic beliefs. There is nothing in the Bible to encourage this.

Oh well Enoch, when you get to heaven you'll be able to put in a word for us mistaken folk that just haven't been able to see that life after death as you understand it is well explained. The assertion that it is an important matter in almost every culture as you say (as if that is meant to validate anything) for some odd reason just hasn't made any mileage with me.

 

[Aunty Jane]

That could not be further from the truth. Life after death -- in almost every culture -- was and is a very important matter. For Christians, life after death is well explained in Scripture and is a key doctrine. So you have either skimmed the Bible or simply ignored what is written.

Enoch, the OP was full of scriptures....did you read any of them? The Jews held no belief in life after death because their scripture did not teach it. There is no immortal soul in any scripture in the Bible.

Life after death is believed in every culture except the one God established.....the religion of the Jews. As Christianity grew out of Judaism, it stands to reason that Jesus believed and taught was in Jewish scripture.

Life after death is a satanic lie, going back to the garden of Eden. The devil told the woman "you surely will not die" when God had told them that they would. When humans died satan covered over his lie by promoting the idea of an immortal soul that goes on living...somewhere. This is NOT what Jesus taught.

Getting back to praying for the dead, it was a practice during the time of the Jewish Maccabees, and somehow became a part of Catholic beliefs. There is nothing in the Bible to encourage this.

The later Jews adopted Greek ideas about immortal souls flitting off to other places after death, but the Jews and the early Christians did not believe such things. They did not yet have the Christian scriptures, remember?

If you go back to the resurrection of Lazarus, you will find his sister acknowledging that her brother would "rise in the resurrection on the last day"....so she did not believe that her brother's "soul" had gone anywhere, because she knew that the scriptures did not teach that.
They believed in resurrection and Jesus demonstrated what that meant by raising Lazarus back to life...this life.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Much of your post information is in error, even though that does not appear to be the topic, but rather "why do people pray for the dead?"

My post was to demonstrate that there is no one to pray for after death. The dead are not alive. They are "asleep" as the scriptures say.

I don't know the history of the doctrine, but I can imagine it came as a result of realizing that our Savior is not limited by time. I would not discount anyone for having such a great faith in His abilities--nothing is impossible with God.

No, the doctrine came from platonic Greeks who believed in immortality of the soul.....it was adopted by the Jews and later by Christendom with many believing that scripture that pertained only to the 'elect' referred to all Christians. That is simply not true.

Only the chosen ones (elect) will go to heaven and be granted immortality there as rulers and priests with Christ (Revelation 20:6)....the majority will enjoy life right here on earth where God put us in the first place. (Revelation 21:2-4)
They will be granted a resurrection back to this life, only without death, ageing, sickness and disabilities spoiling our enjoyment of paradise.

 

[quietthinker]

Why do People Pray for the Dead?
cuz they don't hassle you like the living

 

[quietthinker]

and they have no more share forever in all that is done under the sun.

the lawn however does look greener just above their patch!

 

[ScottA]

My post was to demonstrate that there is no one to pray for after death. The dead are not alive. They are "asleep" as the scriptures say.


No, the doctrine came from platonic Greeks who believed in immortality of the soul.....it was adopted by the Jews and later by Christendom with many believing that scripture that pertained only to the 'elect' referred to all Christians. That is simply not true.

Only the chosen ones (elect) will go to heaven and be granted immortality there as rulers and priests with Christ (Revelation 20:6)....the majority will enjoy life right here on earth where God put us in the first place. (Revelation 21:2-4)
They will be granted a resurrection back to this life, only without death, ageing, sickness and disabilities spoiling our enjoyment of paradise.

If you want to make a case for the dead or death, that is certainly possible, but that is not the end.

You are also going in circles with your rationale. Correct me if I have misunderstood what you are saying, but it would appear that you start out saying that dead is dead and the dead are resurrected in their actual physical bodies to live again. But then you also say that eternal life is not in the scriptures, but finish with the resurrection includes the elimination of death (which sounds like eternal life).

Such a doctrine would mean the elimination of a great amount of scripture: No eternal life for Jesus, for we are His body; or, no, we are not His body...get rid of that scripture; no forever being with the Lord; no heaven with no shadow of turning, etc..

It doesn't sound like you have reconciled all of the scriptures, far from it.


As for the dead, they are in Christ, as are the living, who have been resurrected already with Christ who has also ascended (two different events) and is no longer in the flesh, but has become One with God whom is spirit. These truths are all in accord with the scriptures...and I have said it with one sentence.

As for praying for the dead, if we have already been resurrected with Christ (as the scriptures say), then by the same logic of not praying for the dead, that would also mean there is no reason to pray for the living, for "It is finished." But that is not how either works.

We do not pray in our own time as if our physical birth and death are the bounds upon God--He is not so bound. Yes, our times are for us to come to ourselves, to personally experience the fall of all mankind and the judgement once to die. But when we pray, we commune with God who is not under that judgement, not subject to our times, but has promised that in accordance with His will, He will Hear our prayers from [timeless] heaven, and answer. The times, our different times, whether before or after the one resurrection we share with Christ, have no bearing on whether God answers them or not, but rather, it is only according to His will...on which there is no such time limit.

Having said all that-- No, I am not Catholic, nor have I arrived at any of what I have written from another, except God.

 

[Enoch111]

There is no immortal soul in any scripture in the Bible.

This is just laughable. Let me give you just one example: And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? (Rev 6:9,10)

1. Where is this altar? IN HEAVEN
2. Where are these souls? UNDER THE ALTAR
3. Were these the martyrs who were killed on earth? ABSOLUTELY
4. Will they receive resurrected bodies? ABSOLUTELY

Mortality and immortality apply only to the body. Hence "mortality rates". But souls and spirits are IMPERISHABLE and IMMATERIAL.

 

[Aunty Jane]

This is just laughable. Let me give you just one example: And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? (Rev 6:9,10)

Read it again.....the “souls” were slain.....killed for the witness that they gave for Jesus. Who then are these “souls” but living, breathing humans who were martyred. They had “blood” in their veins. Revelation is a vision, remember....and the things seen were mostly symbolic, not literal.
So this is portraying a plea for justice on the part of those who were killed for being Christians.

1. Where is this altar? IN HEAVEN
2. Where are these souls? UNDER THE ALTAR

3. Were these the martyrs who were killed on earth? ABSOLUTELY
4. Will they receive resurrected bodies? ABSOLUTELY

Like the blood of Abel, the blood of these Christian martyrs is crying out for justice. (Genesis 4:10) “They cried with a loud voice, saying: ‘Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?’”
But what happens next?....
“A white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been.”

All of the elect will receive immortal spirit bodies upon their resurrection, but they have to wait for Christ’s return as Paul said...in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17...

Mortality and immortality apply only to the body. Hence "mortality rates". But souls and spirits are IMPERISHABLE and IMMATERIAL.

Souls are mortal (Ezekiel 18:4)....there is no such thing as an “immortal soul” in the Bible. These “souls” who are of the elect, are living, breathing creatures with blood in their veins who died in their flesh. But these mortals are raised immortal, in spirit bodies to enter the heavens where Jesus said he went “to prepare a place” for them. Souls cannot exist in heaven, but spirt beings do.
Yet not all spirit beings are immortal because God can destroy them...as he will satan and his demons in the lake of fire. Gehenna is not a literal place, but a symbolic place where the things that go in, do not ever come out....they are utterly destroyed. (Matthew 10:28)

Learn the difference between souls and spirits. These terms are not interchangeable.

 

[Aunty Jane]

If you want to make a case for the dead or death, that is certainly possible, but that is not the end.

The OP was to demonstrate that it was pointless to pray for the physically dead. Everything else is off topic.

You are also going in circles with your rationale. Correct me if I have misunderstood what you are saying, but it would appear that you start out saying that dead is dead and the dead are resurrected in their actual physical bodies to live again. But then you also say that eternal life is not in the scriptures, but finish with the resurrection includes the elimination of death (which sounds like eternal life).

There are two resurrections spoken about in scripture....one for the elect who are “resurrected first” to heaven to rule with Christ in his Kingdom (Revelation 20:6).....and there is one for the rest of mankind whom Jesus will call from their graves exactly like he did with Lazarus. (John 5:28-29; John 11:11-14)
One group are raised as immortal spirits to rule over earthly subjects. (Revelation 21:2-4) And the other are raised back to mortal life in paradise on earth.....just like it was originally intended to be in Eden. Being mortal didn't mean that the humans had to die...only that they could if they disobeyed God's command. Continuing life on earth from day one, was conditional.

Such a doctrine would mean the elimination of a great amount of scripture: No eternal life for Jesus, for we are His body; or, no, we are not His body...get rid of that scripture; no forever being with the Lord; no heaven with no shadow of turning, etc..

It doesn't sound like you have reconciled all of the scriptures, far from it.

It sounds more like you are reading way more into what I said than what I meant.

Jesus was granted immortal life after his return to heaven. He was a mortal creature before then so that he could come to earth as a human and pay Adam's debt. Immortals cannot die, so this means that Jesus could not be God.

As far as the "body of Christ" is concerned...how many members do you think this body needs? Not all Christians make up the "body"...only the elect, specially chosen by God for positions of rulership and priesthood in heaven, are part of the "body". (Revelation 20:6) Rulers and priests cannot do a thing if they have no subjects or sinners for whom to rule and perform their priestly duties. There are no sinners in heaven....and kings do not rule one another. This is a heavenly government with earthly subjects....all bought with the blood of Christ.

As for the dead, they are in Christ, as are the living, who have been resurrected already with Christ who has also ascended (two different events) and is no longer in the flesh, but has become One with God whom is spirit. These truths are all in accord with the scriptures...and I have said it with one sentence.

The "dead in Christ", as Paul showed were in their graves and were to remained there until Christ returned. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)

As for praying for the dead, if we have already been resurrected with Christ (as the scriptures say), then by the same logic of not praying for the dead, that would also mean there is no reason to pray for the living, for "It is finished." But that is not how either works.

Since the physically dead are actually dead (according to scripture).....there is no point in praying for them.
Those spiritually dead however, can benefit from our prayers because while there is life, there is hope. But discerning the difference between these is important. Those who pray for those who are actually physically dead as if they are alive somewhere and can benefit from those prayers, are operating on a mistaken understanding of what happens when we die. For the majority of humans who have ever lived and died, they will sleep in "sheol" until Christ establishes his Kingdom over the earth and Revelation 21:2-4 and John 5:28-29 have their fulfillment.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Never heard about anyone Praying for the Dead ever, apart from some slandering, on a point that they do not know what they are truly talking about.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Never heard about anyone Praying for the Dead ever, apart from some slandering, on a point that they do not know what they are truly talking about.

I remembering hearing a prayer for the "repose of the soul" of someone who had died. What did that even mean I wondered?
If someone had gone to heaven why did you need to pray for them at all?

The Catholic church introduced "indulgences" so that if you paid the church enough money they would "pray" you out of Purgatory.
It was one of the main catalysts for the Reformation.

If you have an immortal soul that cannot die, then you have to invent places for them to go.....the Bible does not tell of such places where conscious torment in everlasting flames are a contrast, or opposite destination to heavenly bliss.

God created us humans to live forever right here on earth....and that is where the majority of those who "sleep in death" will return, just like Lazarus. (John 11:11-14)

God did not give up his first purpose because of a few rebels (Isaiah 55:11).....he simply detoured with the full intent to bring us back to what we lost....everlasting life in health and happiness in Paradise.....the earth was designed to be our permanent home and I for one want to stay here, because God will soon remove all the wicked, and we can get back to living the life God first intended for us. (Psalm 37:10-11; 29)

 

[quietthinker]

when I pray for the dead, they're usually still walking around!

 

[Aunty Jane]

when I pray for the dead, they're usually still walking around!

They are the ones you should pray for....

 

[quietthinker]

They are the ones you should pray for....

in that case I'll pray for you AJ! Ooooops, mistaken identity, you say your'e not dead?.....I'm glad to hear it. Does that mean I don't need to pray for you?

 

[Aunty Jane]

in that case I'll pray for you AJ! Ooooops, mistaken identity, you say your'e not dead?.....I'm glad to hear it. Does that mean I don't need to pray for you?

Probably...I was dead a long time ago but I have been alive now for nigh on half a century.....