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Why Do We Not Follow Ot Law?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by TexUs, Nov 22, 2010.

  1. Rach1370

    Rach1370 New Member

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    Hey TexUs! These are good questions, and in many cases I do believe Christians are too eager to completely dismiss the OT. I don't, its God breathed and therefore profitable. I just believe that in light of the new covenant Jesus brought, that not every one of the 613 laws found in the OT are necessarily to be followed to the letter. I realise how easy it is for everyone to have their own opinions, I like to read the bible and then check out a few commentaries by biblical scholars. Here is an excert from Tyndale Commentaries: Matthew, written by R. T. France.

    The main points of vv. 17–20 may now be paraphrased as follows:

    ‘[sup]17[/sup]I have not come to set aside the Old Testament, but to bring the fulfilment to which it pointed. [sup]18[/sup]For no part of it can ever be set aside, but all must be fulfilled (as it is now being fulfilled in my ministry and teaching). [sup]19[/sup]So a Christian who repudiates any part of the Old Testament is an inferior Christian; the consistent Christian will be guided by the Old Testament, and will teach others accordingly. [sup]20[/sup]But a truly Christian attitude is not the legalism of the scribes and Pharisees, but a deeper commitment to do the will of God, as vv. 21ff. will illustrate.’

    This passage does not therefore state that every Old Testament regulation is eternally valid. This view is not found anywhere in the New Testament, which consistently sees Jesus as introducing a new situation, for which the law prepared (Gal. 3:24), but which now transcends it. The focus is now on Jesus and his teaching, and in this light the validity of Old Testament rules must now be examined. Some will be found to have fulfilled their role and be no longer applicable (see especially Hebrews on the ritual laws, and Jesus’ teaching on uncleanness, Mark 7:19), others will be reinterpreted. Matthew 5:21ff. will be dealing with this reinterpretation, and vv. 17–20 can only truly be understood as an introduction to vv. 21ff. To assert, as these verses do, that every detail of the Old Testament is God-given and unalterable, is not to pre-empt the question of its proper application. If the law pointed forward to a new situation which has now arrived, that question arises with new urgency, and vv. 21ff. will go on to indicate some answers to it. Their answers will be the opposite of legalism (the literal and unchanging application of the law as regulations), as v. 20 has already indicated



    Hope this helps clarify my thought on the subject! :)
     
  2. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    here is my response to Bud2

    Love and forgiveness is exercising our sanctification - it is work and faith - the two cannot be separated. All relationships take at least two people's involvement. Yes, we are saved by Grace through faith, but faith without works is dead and works without faith is dead. The works that Paul denounced were human work - exercising the external law - this leads to death. A Christian who has real faith in Jesus Christ cannot work without faith - their work is alive.

    In 2nd Corinthians Paul talks about avoiding circumcision - but only if you feel forced to do it. If on the other hand, you feel like doing it without any outside religious pressure you can do it because we are free in Christ. I think of praying the Divine Office in the same way. I have committed to praying the Office 4 times a day, but the second some priest or layperson tells me I have to pray it or I am going to Hell, I do not have to follow their directions because I have freedom in Christ.
     
  3. bud02

    bud02 New Member

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    So then I agree that it is grace by faith alone, but the faith of the individual is proportionate to grace. Little faith = little grace and the need to do as Paul said in Romans 14.

    Now to take it a step farther people with little faith have no business teaching certain things are necessary for salvation, simply because these things are deemed essential according to their faith. In that I have a big problem. Now if you want to abstain from foods or feel you need to be baptized or receive sacraments every time you fall short then by all means do so JUST DON"T TEACH IT AS THE GOSPEL because its not. Read chapter 8 Rom 8:1-2

    Now let these gentelmen have their thread back they have a very good discussion going, TexUs I did not comment for that very reason. I just posted a verse I thought was in agreement with the direction you and xander were going.
     
  4. Anastacia

    Anastacia New Member

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    The New Testament means The New Covenant. The New Testament is the "perfect law."

    But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it--he will be blessed in what he does. James 1:5

    The Old Testament law was "transitory."

    Dictionary.com
    tran·si·to·ry[sup][/sup]
    –adjective

    1. not lasting, enduring, permanent, or eternal. 2. lasting only a short time; brief; short-lived; temporary.


    2 Corinthians 3:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
    The old law is obsolete and passing away.

    By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. Hebrews 8:13

    Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. Galatians 3:23-25


    The first covenant had regulations for worship.

    Hebrews 9:1 Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary.

    Hebrews 9:11 When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!


    Ephesians 2:15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,


    Jesus canceled the written code, with its commandments and regulations. We are not to let anyone judge us by what we eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

    Colossians 2:13-17 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcison of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.


    We can see from the Bible that there were people from the circumcision group (those from the Jewish religion) who were trying to get believers in Christ to follow the Old Testament laws. We are not even to be physically circumcised.

    Galatians 6:11-18 See what large letters I use as I write to you with my own hand! Those who want to make a good impression outwardly are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. Not even those who are circumcised obey the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your flesh. May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God.

    Galatians 5:1-15 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves by circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justiffied by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcison nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough," I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be. Brother, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command:


    Before the Galatians were saved, they were Pagans, they worshiped special days and months and seasons and years. Like Summer Solstice, etc. Now the people from the circumcision group were trying to get these believers to observe their special days and months and years.

    Paul's Concern for the Galatians

    Galatians 4:8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

    17Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you from us, so that you may be zealous for them. 18It is fine to be zealous, provided the purpose is good, and to be so always and not just when I am with you. 19My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, 20how I wish I could be with you now and change my tone, because I am perplexed about you!


    Paul Opposes Cephas
    Galatians 2:11-21 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. [sup]12[/sup] For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. [sup]13[/sup] The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

    [sup]14[/sup] When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?


    We are warned in the Bible to watch out for some people will try to get us to follow Jewish customs.

    Hebrews 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;


    When we obey Jesus' commands in the New Testament (New Covenant), we surpass the righteousness of the Pharisees and teacher's of the law.

    We don't only do not murder, but we know not to get angry with our brother. We not only do not commit adultery, but we don't think about it either. There are many other commands that show how that if we obey Jesus' commands in the New Testament, we will surpass the righteousness of the pharisees and teacher's of the law.

    Matthew 5:20-21
    For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
    Murder
    21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
     
    Rach1370 likes this.
  5. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    So now under Christ Jesus a believer is 'lawless', right? Isn't that what you all are saying, since you infer God's law no longer applies to those in Christ?


    1 Tim 1:5-11
    5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
    6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
    7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
    8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
    9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
    10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
    11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
    (KJV)



    Who doesn't know the command of Christ and His Apostles for us to love thy neighbor as thyself is from God's law in the Old Testamnt Book of Leviticus 19?

    Our relationship in our walk with Christ by The Spirit is how He made the New Covenant different. It did not end God's law, except those commandments in religious sacrificial 'ordinances' like Xander showed from Ephesians 2. And God's laws are certainly not just about keeping commandments in sacrificial ordinances.

    What apostle Paul explained to Timothy was how God's law was not made for the righteous, but for the 'lawless and disobedient.'

    God promised under the New Covenant that He would put His laws into the minds of His people, and write them in their heart (Heb.8). That functions through The Holy Spirit as given to each believer on Christ Jesus according to their Faith.

    Like Paul taught in Galatians, walk by The Spirit and you won't be under God's law because you won't be living against His law. But walk by the flesh, and you will most definitely go back into bondage under the law because of disobedience and lawlessness. And that applies to all of us today, not just the unbelieving who refuse to walk by The Spirit.

    One of the major functions of God's law among those in Christ is for protection against the lawless and disobedient, i.e., the criminals and outlaws. Thus we should never think it's no longer needed in our society, or no longer applicable among us Christians.

     
  6. TexUs

    TexUs New Member

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    Why not? I don't think trimming your beard is a sacrificial thing.

    It also does not state that much of the OT is invalid, either!

    I wholeheartedly disagree.
    The fullness Paul speaks of is yet to come. If we had yet taken on the entirety and fullness of Christ we would be without sin... I do not think that happens until heaven/end of times/etc.

    1 Corinthians 13, NOW we know in part, THEN we will know fully. WHEN completeness comes, what is in PART disappears. NOW we see dimly, THEN we shall see clearly.

    What do you think Paul's talking of???? Nay, he's very clear we are partial and incomplete. So "us being the law" I do not believe logically follows.


    This in my opinion, ignores what Matthew says... When will it disappear? New heavens and new earth. Do you believe we are living in the new heavens and new earth???

    Now, Hebrews could indeed be talking about sacrificial law which I would agree was sealed away in 70AD...


    Thanks for all the references, it's helping me out.
    I still struggle with my main point though. If "THE LAW" was "THE IDEAL TO FOLLOW"... Why is it not ideal anymore? I have yet to see anyone tackle this question (that's arguing from a NT perspective)... Seems most here just defer to scripture supporting the abolition of the OT rather than answering this question.
    If the law, as we are told Biblically, was "the ruler" to measure right and wrong with... Why is that ruler no more? Christ's commands, as he says, are based upon this. If you're playing Jenga or something and remove the base upon which the structure is built, it'll fall down. Why would Christ base his law upon an obsolete system?? Unless when Paul speaks of obsolete he is speaking of JUSTIFICATION only.
    This is just like ministry. Not needed for salvation, but it is something a sincere Christian should try to do. I see the law being the same way so once more, why is the law no longer the ideal?
     
  7. Xanderoc

    Xanderoc New Member

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    I believe I answered your questions. You didn't respond to my response about what you said concerning what James said! About breaking one law, breaking them all. Or you never responded about Heb 10 comparing it to Heb 8, speaking of the law put into the hearts of men. God's same laws!
     
  8. Rach1370

    Rach1370 New Member

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    Hey TexUs. I don't believe the OT is obsolete! It is wisdom, history and indeed many of the laws show us 2 things: How to love/obey God and what is, in fact, sin. But please consider this...Why were the laws introduced? The law does not and cannot bring victory over sin and death since sin is defined and even promoted through the law. As it says in Romans 7, without the law we wouldn't know what sin is! But does it save us from sin??

    This is why Jesus was necessary! If the law was indeed "Ideal" then why was Jesus' sacrifice always God's real plan? We know it was, right from the beginning when God preached the 'first gospel', the Protoevangelium to Adam and Eve. Indeed we see this all throughout the Bible, the first then the perfect! The first Adam, then the perfect Adam, the first passover then Jesus became our passover! All the Bible points to Jesus, and that includes the law! If ALL the law could have been kept perfectly by man, then Jesus' sacrifice would not have been needed to reconcile us back to God....but as we are sinful this is impossible!
    For example!!

    [35] “When one man's ox butts another's, so that it dies, then they shall sell the live ox and share its price, and the dead beast also they shall share.
    (Exodus 21:35 ESV)


    This is just one law out of the 613 in the OT...and really, even if we still used ox, do you think something like that would be settled out of court?? Truly, read all the laws, and then try and imagine implementing them ALL PERFECTLY in your life. We just can't do it, and God always knew this to be the case. This is why Jesus is so precious to us!

    [17] “Whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death.
    (Exodus 21:17 ESV)


    Who of us hasn't thought stubborn, nasty thoughts of our parents, at one point in our existence...and Jesus tells us that even a thought counts. We are a hopeless and damned peoples' without Jesus! Through him we have hope and know that where we could not, He did! The perfect Adam reconciled us to God and thus we do not have to strive (futilely) to keep the law.

    [4] Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. [5] For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. [6] But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
    (Romans 7:4-6 ESV)


    Does any of this mean we can blithely do away with all the laws? Some I believe yes! Since Jesus sacrificed Himself and has brought us reconciliation and cleanliness in the eyes of God; has in fact brought us grace and salvation; then I believe that striving to keep so many of the old laws is just trying to prove we 'can be good'. No...everything we have is a gift from God, we cannot claim any of it, and in fact all our good works are filth in His eyes.
    But what of some laws? Laws like: You shall have no God before me, You shall not worship Idols, Honor you mother and father, do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bear false witness and do not covet....
    Does any true Christian go about doing these things?? Jesus teaches that these things are wrong and so we continue to believe and follow these teachings. It is not 'doing away' with the OT, it is implementing it in light of Jesus. Now some say that the OT laws are more important than anything, and this is the biblical reply:

    [Some Will Depart from the Faith]
    [4:1] Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, [2] through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, [3] who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. [4] For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, [5] for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.
    (1 Timothy 4:1-5 ESV)


    And again Jesus says some amazing things in regard to the Sabbath as well, but i've run out of time to post them!
    My point is that the law makes us aware of sin, but it also makes us aware that we cannot gain salvation through it. It is only through Jesus that salvation comes. You asked why the law is not 'ideal' anymore? It's because something better came....Jesus!!
     
  9. Anastacia

    Anastacia New Member

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  10. Duckybill

    Duckybill New Member

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    I certainly hope not.

    Deuteronomy 13:6-10 (NASB)
    [sup]6 [/sup]"If your brother, your mother's son, or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul, entice you secretly, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods' (whom neither you nor your fathers have known, [sup]7 [/sup]of the gods of the peoples who are around you, near you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end), [sup]8 [/sup]you shall not yield to him or listen to him; and your eye shall not pity him, nor shall you spare or conceal him. [sup]9 [/sup]"But you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. [sup]10 [/sup]"So you shall stone him to death because he has sought to seduce you from the LORD your God who brought you out from the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
     
  11. TexUs

    TexUs New Member

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    You get awfully close to "right and wrong is as I define it"...
    Yes, the Holy Spirit is unchanging. If we reduce "applicable law" to that which we are led it becomes a scary thing. It seems this is what you are suggesting?





    I disagree... There's no time period I can see that supports a "Satan fell before the Garden". In fact, I believe that the event in the garden was the first sin of BOTH parties. Satan lied to them (his sin), and Adam and Eve bought into it and ate (their sin). I think it was one event in the same as I do not see evidence for "Satan fell before the Garden of Eden".
    But that's a side tangent... Just another one of those "church tradition" things that's not rooted in scripture.




    I still would like to know why you don't trim the edges of your beard... It's not sacrificial.

    So by disobeying the law it's sin. You just admitted it tells us what sin is, yet we openly defy much of it????
    Unless the definition (the ruler) that defines sin has now changed.

    Either the ruler is the same (which means we should still strive to maintain the law as best we can).
    Or we were given a new ruler.

    The statement that the OT law defines sin mandates that the ruler is the same so which stance do you take?

    Make no mistake, I have no beef with the penalty side of this, as seems to be what your argument is based from. Obviously the law cannot save us.
    Just like works cannot save us.
    It's Christ ALONE.

    However, shouldn't good and sincere Christians be striving to obey (in works, in law)?

    Sorry for the second replies but I can't multiquote a quote...


    Yes...



    Yes but it tells us WHEN it'll pass away... When the old earth is gone. Has this happened?
    If it hasn't, than the law has not passed away, not the slightest jot or tittle.
    [font="tahoma]
    [/font]
    [font="tahoma][quote][/font]
    [font=tahoma][color="#5D5D5D"]I wholeheartedly disagree.[/color]
    The fullness Paul speaks of is yet to come. If we had yet taken on the entirety and fullness of Christ we would be without sin... I do not think that happens until heaven/end of times/etc.

    1 Corinthians 13, NOW we know in part, THEN we will know fully. WHEN completeness comes, what is in PART disappears. NOW we see dimly, THEN we shall see clearly.
    Paul in 1 Corinthians 13 talks about how prophesies will cease. When a prophecy is given, then we know in part, when the prophecy comes to be fulfilled, then what was in part disapears. That's what I think Paul was talking about.[/quote][/font]
    I still disagree because he also mentions tongues and knowledge. Paul is hitting on a broad spectrum of topics. I think his point is exactly what he re-iterates several times... "We are now in part, then we will be full".




    I was quoting the other poster...



    You have not dealt with the text. Matthew clearly tells us WHEN it'll disappear.



    [font="tahoma]I'd agree however, there's plenty of laws which we don't do anymore. We don't surpass them, we don't even do them![/font]
     
  12. Anastacia

    Anastacia New Member

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  13. TexUs

    TexUs New Member

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    [font="tahoma][color="#008000"]
    [/color][/font]
    [font="tahoma]Actually I take beef with whatever translation you've quoted (Appears to be the old NIV) because "with its regulations" isn't in the original text at all... (I was going to look up what Greek word was used there, to see how it contrasted to other references regarding law, code, etc... but I couldn't because that phrase doesn't exist). [/font]
    [font="tahoma]Check out the ESV, NASB, KJV... Even the new 2010 NIV translation has fixed this passage[/font][font="Tahoma"]: "[/font]having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross."
    [font="tahoma]
    [color="#5D5D5D"]
    [/font]
    [font="tahoma]I do not think the text supports this. How do you take "heaven and earth passing away" and transform it to "your sinful selves passing away"?[/font]
    [font="tahoma]
    [/font]
    [font="tahoma]I actually had an idea that this might actually support heaven and earth being a reference to the Jewish age, but the Greek for both supports the physical reference of heaven and earth (both root words come from sky and soil) and I cannot in any way arrive at the conclusion it's talking about an "age".[/font]
    [font="tahoma]
    [/font]
    [font="tahoma][quote][/font][color="#008000"][font="tahoma]Of course the old law is still here though....The Bible says the law is for law breakers. [/quote][/font][/color]
    [font="tahoma]Good point, I'm going to guess at your direction here...[/font]
    [font="tahoma]You're saying the law is still in effect for nonbelievers?[/font]
    [font="tahoma]
    [/font]
    [font="tahoma][quote][/font][color="#008000"][font="tahoma]Anastacia: Well, I still disagree too. Do people still prophecy? That is---new prophecies? No, we do not add to the Bible. The New Testament times were a special time, to say the least. It was during the laying of the foundation! The foundation is laid.[/quote][/font][/color]
    [font="tahoma]You can disagree, but WHEN was what Paul was talking about fulfilled? This passage must have been fulfilled at some point for your opinion of it being completed to be true, I'm curious when you think that was. Keep in mind this is written to the church in Corinth, AFTER the death, AFTER the resurrection, AFTER the ascension. What Paul was talking about WAS NOT fulfilled by the work of Christ on earth! Unless there was an event you can reference in which these were fulfilled, this passage is still true to us today (which is obviously my opinion).[/font]
    [font="tahoma]You also cannot arrive at the conclusion that this is "salvation for the Christian" because Paul lumps himself in with the church (already a Christian) as a whole in his various "we" references: "for we know in part"... This is a body thing, not an individual thing. What future event, FOR THE ENTIRE CHURCH, would this passage have us gaining full knowledge and seeing things clearly?[/font]
     
  14. Anastacia

    Anastacia New Member

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  15. TexUs

    TexUs New Member

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    [font="tahoma][color="#0000FF"]
    [/font][/color][/font]
    [font="tahoma][font="tahoma]I think the key word here is indebtedness. [/font][/font]
    [font="tahoma]
    [/font]
    [font="tahoma]Yes, we are free from the DEBT, is that not what is addressed? The debt?[/font]
    [font="tahoma]
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    [font="tahoma]You would not say, in the NT, that since we are free from the debt of anger, lust, etc that we ought not follow them, would you?[/font]
    [font="tahoma]Yet that is exactly what you are saying in regards to the OT![/font]
    [font="tahoma]
    [/font]
    [font="tahoma]Read it again... "having cancelled the charge".[/font]
    [font="tahoma]Say you break a law (speeding), go before the judge, and he cancels the charge. Does this mean the law does not exist nor is applicable? No! The law still exists, you are just free from the charge.[/font]
    [font="tahoma]
    [/font]
    [font="tahoma]Thus, I do not believe this is a supportive passage for OT law being dissolved.[/font]
    [font="tahoma]
    [/font]
    [font="tahoma][font="tahoma] [/font][color="#0000FF"]
    [/font][/color]
    [font="tahoma]So the physical heaven and earth are passing away but in a personal manner? Doesn't make sense to me. I think you can read this verse as it's written.[/font]
    [color="#5D5D5D"][font="tahoma]
    [/font][/color][quote][color="#5D5D5D"][font="tahoma]Good point, I'm going to guess at your direction here...[/font][/color]
    [color="#5D5D5D"][font="tahoma]You're saying the law is still in effect for nonbelievers?
    [color="#0000FF"]Yes![/quote][/color][/font][/color]
    [font="tahoma][/font]Interesting concept and one I'll have to think about... anyone else wants to comment on this I'd love to hear it.


    [quote]
    [color="#5D5D5D"][font="tahoma][color="#0000FF"]Maybe Paul is talking about each prophecy, as they come to fulfillment. Of course not everything prophesized has all happened yet, but that doesn't take away from what has been prophesized and fulfilled. Again, do people prophesize new prophecies? If they do, would you accept it as the word of God? Prophecies have ceased, like the Bible says they would. [/quote][/color][/font][/color]
    [font="tahoma][/font]Considering you debated with a Preterist I'd assume you hold Revelations to be future, and if so, please read 11:3.


    [font="tahoma]I would assume this is sufficient enough evidence for you to agree with me that this is future and we are still IN PART. [/font]
    [font="tahoma]
    [/font]
    [font="tahoma]This also requires that yes,[/font][font="tahoma] Spiritual gifts are alive and well. I also believe the abuse and fake manufacture of spiritual gifts as well as demonic activity mistaken as such is alive and well, also.[/font]
    [font="tahoma]You need to understand that the Greek dealing with the word prophecy does not always mean "new revelation" or "future telling". Nay it means "speaking forth" "proclaim publically". Which if you look at the word itself you can see where we get it from. (pro-claim. sy-say) What is prophecy but to proclaim the Gospel![/font]
     
  16. JarBreaker

    JarBreaker New Member

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    Without going into a lot of verses.

    How do we have the love of messiah ? What is the big thing that keeps us from loving all as He did, unconditionally ?


    We are to have no PARTIALITY in us. Those who justify the wicked and those who condemn the righteous are equally an abomination. If we have not put the old man of the flesh to death, then we can not be impartial --- if we show any partiality at all, then we do not have the love of messiah. Without the love of messiah, it's a moot point to say the Torah is invalid and we only need to follow the 2 laws given by messiah.


    How did messiah accomplish this not having partiality thing ?

    He knew the Torah inside and out.
     
  17. JarBreaker

    JarBreaker New Member

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    Havent had time to read all replies --- I did notice mention of the "trimming / destroying the edges of your beard"

    Now, I am not claiming to have an answer --- but I was reading Ezekiel the other day and part of one of his prophecies was to cut his hair and beard, to scatter 1/3 of it, to smite 1/2 of it with a sword ... and to BURN 1/2 of it.


    This is some very deep things here, but I would say it's fairly certain by this act of a prophet to believe that destroying the edges of your beard is considered sacrificial in a way.
     
  18. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

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    I recommend you read Ezekiel 28. The prince of Tyrus in verse 2 and the king of Tyrus, in verses 12-19 are two of the many names of Satan, Lucifer, the morning star, the serpent, etc.
     
  19. TexUs

    TexUs New Member

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    If you read that... he's referenced, in past tense, as in the garden or as a cherub AS the unblemished creation. So Satan existed in the garden without fault, at some point.
    Considering Eden wasn't created until the third day at the earliest (dry land with vegetation) to where one could consider it a garden, and to where God would station angels there, he didn't sin before then.
    So IMO... Satan's first sin was several days (I'm guessing, we don't really know) after that when he lied.

    Also IMO, Ezekiel is prophesying about the FINAL fall of Satan (what kings and nations existed in the garden????????) as well. And of course in Job we see him in heaven asking God questions so we know he wasn't banished before then, either, just cursed.
     
  20. Anastacia

    Anastacia New Member

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    Hi TexUs, I really enjoyed studying scriptures with you, though it sure is wonderful when I find a more like minded believer, of course.=] I see we have different beliefs about prophecies. I don't believe prophecies mean what you say---you say one only has to proclaim something even if it was already prophecized and written down by someone else. Even your explanation of "pro-claim. sy-say" has the word sy (see) in it, but you are saying the nowadays prophets don't have to see anything themselves---only proclaim what someone else has said. The apostles had things revealed to them and they proclaimed them to others. Now we have in the Bible things already seen and prophecized and written down. If you want to proclaim what has already been prophesized by someone else, then that would be to preach and teach, but you say it is prophesizing.

    As for your beliefs about obeying the old law.....start obeying then. You have read the scriptures about believers not having to obey the old law, yet you still can't accept it. I guess you think Paul preached some falseness? Paul did tell believers not to get circumcized. I am grateful that Christ is formed in me. I am not a baby Christian anymore, and no one is going to take away my freedom in Christ.

    So which of the Old Testament laws are you going to follow? Are you going to pick and choose which are easiest for you? Not sure how you justify not following all of them then. I mean, if you think it is a sin not to follow the old laws....then you are sinning for all the laws you don't follow.
     
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