Why I Had To Apostatize

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Webers_Home

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My mom had me baptized an infant into the Roman Catholic Church in 1944;
and when old enough; enrolled me in catechism where I eventually
completed First Holy Communion and Confirmation.

My aunt and uncle were Catholics, their son is a Catholic, one of my half
brothers is now a semi-retired Friar. My father-in-law was a Catholic, as was
my mother-in-law. Everybody alive on my wife's side are Catholics; her
aunts and uncles, and her cousins. My sister-in-law was a nun for a number
of years before falling out with the hierarchy that controlled her order.

I have things to thank the Church for. It instilled within me an unshakable
confidence in the Holy Bible as a reliable authority in all matters pertaining
to faith and practice. It also instilled within me a trust in the integrity of
Jesus Christ. Very early in my youth; I began to believe that Christ knew
what he was talking about and meant what he said.

I was very proud to be affiliated with Roman Catholicism, and confident as
all get out that it is the one true religion. Some Catholics see red whenever
the Church is criticized and/or critiqued, but I never did. Some Catholics see
criticism and/or critique of the Church's beliefs and practices as hatred for
Catholics. I have never understood that mentality.

Ironically, one of the Church's enemies, the Jehovah's Witnesses, sometimes
react the same way when somebody criticizes and/or critiques the Watch
Tower Society. For some odd reason, it translates in their minds as hatred
for Jehovah's Witnesses. I think some people have trouble telling the
difference between a sport and a sport's fans; if you know what I mean.

Oddly, though I was confident that the Bible is an authority in all matters
pertaining to faith and practice; I had never actually sat down and read it. A
co-worker in a metal shop where I worked as a welder in 1968 suggested
that I buy one and see for myself what it says.

Everything went smoothly till I got to the New Testament, and in no time at
all I began to realize that Rome does not always agree with the Holy Bible;
nor does it always agree with Christ. Well; that was not cool with me
because I was, and still am, confident that the Holy Bible is an authority in
all matters pertaining to faith and practice, and that Christ knew what he
was talking about and meant what he said.

Well; I soon became confronted with a very serious decision. Do I continue
to follow Rome or do I switch to following the Holy Bible?

The decision was a no-brainer due to my confidence in the Holy Bible as an
authority in all matters pertaining to faith and practice and due to my trust
in Jesus Christ's integrity— that he knew what he was talking about and
meant what he said.

Ironically, the Church sabotaged itself by instilling within me the justification
to defect. It's been said: Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Give
him some fishing tackle, and you feed him forever. Well; the Church had
inadvertently given me some fishing tackle, so to speak, and here I am
today 47 years later still a Protestant. That's not forever, but it's a start.


http://cfbac.org/catholicism.htm

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Webers_Home

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whitestone said:
Apostate? Is that what RC refers to folk who've left the catholic church and
become a "protestant"?
According to Benedict XIV (De Synodo di£cesanâ, XIII, xi, 9) there are three
kinds of apostasy: one of which is called Fide or perfidi£- defined as a
Christian giving up his faith.

The Church defines a Christian as someone whose religion is Christianity
as it realized in the Roman Catholic Church alone. So when a Catholic
defects; they have broken with Christianity as far as Rome is concerned.

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aspen

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Apr 25, 2012
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What a shame! Well, whatever works to transform your heart, I suppose. We have had opposite experiences - after growing up Protestant and learning that Jesus died for my sins; was Resurrected and then, waited to start His Church on the Rock called Luther, 1500 years later; I found myself craving to know the full story. As soon as I discovered I was missing out on the experiences of hundreds of Mystics and hundreds of years of church history, I never looked back. I joined the Catholic Church for the prayer life - all 2,000 + years of it.
 
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Born_Again

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While I personally don't support all aspects of the Catholic church, I admire what our brother Aspen posted. He is closer to Christ now and that is what is important. I am protestant, but I follow Christ as the Holy Spirit leads me. :)

BA
 

Webers_Home

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Christ spoke for God.

†. John 3:34 . . For he is sent by God. He speaks God's words, for God's
Spirit is upon him without measure or limit

†. John 8:26 . . He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those
things which I have heard of Him.

†. John 8:28 . . I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things
as the Father taught me.

†. John 12:49 . . I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me,
He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

†. John 14:24 . .The word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who
sent me.

†. Heb 1:1-2 . . In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the
prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has
spoken to us by His son

God commands men to listen to Christ.

†. Matt 17:5 . .While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud
overshadowed them; and behold, a voice out of the cloud, saying: This is My
beloved son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to him!

It's risky to ignore the words that Jesus Christ spoke for God.

†. John 12:48 . . He who rejects me, and does not receive my sayings, has
one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

According to the words that Jesus Christ spoke for God: proselytes are
supposed to be evangelized first and baptized afterwards (Matt 28:18-20,
Mark 16:15-16). Seeing as how infants are de facto incapable of being
evangelized, then their baptism has to be held off until they're old enough to
understand.

There are Christian churches out there who've got the cart before the horse
and by doing so declare themselves Christ's opponents.

†. John 15:14 . .You are my friends if you do as I wish.

And they don't think much of him much neither.

†. John 14:15 . . If you love me, you will comply with what I command.

†. John 14:21 . .Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one
who loves me.

†. John 14:23-24 . . If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching . . He
who does not love me will not obey my teaching.

I've noted in my many years of Bible study that there are two things that
God values very highly. One is honesty, and the other is loyalty; which
Webster's defines as unswerving in allegiance to one's lawful sovereign or
government.

†. Luke 6:46-49 . .Why do you call me lord and master and do not do what I
say?

. . . Everyone who comes to me, and hears my words, and acts upon them, I
will show you whom he is like: he is like a man building a house, who dug
deep and laid a foundation upon the rock; and when a flood rose, the torrent
burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well
built.

. . . But the one who has heard, and has not acted accordingly, is like a man
who built a house upon the ground without any foundation; and the torrent
burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was
great.

Churches that circumvent Christ's instructions as per Matt 28:18-20 and
Mark 16:15-16 by baptizing infants are not only disloyal; but they are also
akin to pagans who practice dark arts and/or worship Shiva and Vishnu.

†. 1Sam 15:23 . . Rebellion is as the sin of divination, and insubordination
is as iniquity and idolatry.

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aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
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You know what Weber? One thing I respect about you is that you take Sola Scriptura more seriously (as seriously as it should be taken) as anyone I have ever met, Unfortunately, I believe Sola Scriptura is a doctrine of man.

Not one person who has ever visited this site could ever accuse you of meandering beyond the written word. In fact, I would direct all Protestant ministers to your posts in order to recognize the discipline of depending on the written word. You are beyond Luther and beyond Calvin in your mastery and reliance on the written Word of God. I am not being smug - frankly, I have been astounded, time and time again with your mastery of the written word, I do question your understanding of the next step - experiencing the written word. Based on your posts, which I have been witnessing for about 5 years now, you are quick and thoroughly providing conscious and glib scripture to all posts that catch your eye........

Yet, I also see a surfacey and unexamined quality to the nature of your posts - as if, the average Biblical commentary had decided to dismiss all posts with unexamined examples of scripture......honestly, most of your posts/threads are dismissed as mundane and pedestrian.....yet this one caught my eye.

Here is my response. The nutrition in wheat is not useful to the body before it is refined; so is the Word of God
 

Webers_Home

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aspen said:
I believe Sola Scriptura is a doctrine of man.
Speaking of traditions. At Matt 23:23 and Luke 11:42, Christ okayed
traditions just so long as they don't clash with the Bible. Take for example
Christ's use of wine at his final Passover meal. That element isn't stipulated
in God's instructions in the 12th chapter of Exodus. Passover wine is a
rabbinical tradition rather than a God-given stipulation. But Christ went
along with it anyway because the tradition is quite harmless; viz: it doesn't
clash with Passover's God-given stipulations.

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Bibliocentrist

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Webers_Home said:
I've noted in my many years of Bible study that there are two things that
God values very highly. One is honesty, and the other is loyalty; which
Webster's defines as unswerving in allegiance to one's lawful sovereign or
government.

From the bible and my own experience nothing pleases God except faith (is that what you mean by loyalty).

-----
Jesus also spoke alot about love, and being one.

God also speaks in quite a few places about caring about "fatherless" [incld people without families?] and "widows" [incld singles?]

I also noticed that Matthew "to Hebrews" [Shem/Jews] and Luke [Paul] "to Greeks" [Japheth/gentiles] have different versions of sermon on mount blesseds & woes. (Mark [Peter] "to Romans" [Ham/Catholic] has none.)
 

Webers_Home

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Bibliocentrist said:
From the bible and my own experience nothing pleases God except faith (is
that what you mean by loyalty).
Webster's defines loyalty as unswerving in allegiance to one's lawful
sovereign or government.

†. Mark 12:30 . . Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all
your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.

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Bibliocentrist

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Whatever, i don't care anymore, I am sick of suffering Hell, and how i or anyone can Love or have faith or loyalty in God when suffering hell, and when have forever lost so much is beyond me. Does God practice what he preaches (love, faithful)? It says love not loyalty/allegiance. How can people love God when they don't love one another? Its all law/king/government/lord/God/etc and no father/love/friend/etc. A dog is loyal to a good master not to an abusive one? I do not love God (i just am forced to have to keep crawling back to him humiliated) and/as he does not love me. What citizen/subject is going to be loyal to a mean cruel harsh regime/government/law (like the present Western world one for example)? I have tried to be loyal to God (as i have more or less believed he is the only true God/creator/king/savioutr).

Shem Ham Japheth
gold myrrh frankincense
king prophet priest
faith love hope?
Matthew Mark/Peter Luke

It seems Japheth was cursed not blessed.
 

aspen

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Wow and wow. Your response is robotic and efficient.
 

Webers_Home

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†. John 6:53 . . Jesus said to them: Truly, truly, I say to you,: unless you
eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in
yourselves.

The kind of life about which Christ spoke is eternal life.

†. John 6:54 . . He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life

Note the grammatical tense of Christ's "have" verb; it's present tense rather
than future, indicating that people who correctly ingest his flesh, and imbibe
his blood, have eternal life right now-- no delay and no waiting period.

Just for the sake of argument, let's suppose that transubstantiation is true.
Then according to John 6:54, Christians who take a full communion on
Sunday morning would be endowed with eternal life the very minute that the
elements went down the hatch. In point of fact, the moment they swallowed
the elements, those who ingested them would be impervious to the wages of
sin seeing as how eternal life is divine; viz: it's a kind of life over which
death has no power. Can God die? No? Then neither can eternal life.

†. Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life
through Jesus Christ our Lord.

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aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
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You know what Webster. This is all about me. I am so sorry for attacking you. I think I am losing my faith and attacking you because of it. Pray for me please. I really need it
 

Webers_Home

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Christ's believing followers don't pray to Jesus' mom because the spirit of
God's son is a barrier to that kind of behavior.

†. Gal 4:6 . . And because you are sons, God has sent forth the spirit of His
son into your hearts calling out: Abba! Father.

Abba is an Aramaic word that means, among other things, dad, daddy, pop,
papa, padre, dada, or father, et al. Abba isn't a formal title; but rather,
pretty much informal because it's a filial vocative. What I mean is; when I'm
out in the garage working and my son and his mother are in the kitchen
talking about me, the noun "dad" is just who I am to my boy. But when he
wants to get my attention by calling out: Dad! Where are you? Then dad
becomes a vocative.

In other words: when the spirit of His son wants God's attention, he calls out
Abba! But after he has God's attention, he stops using Abba because it isn't
necessary to use a vocative once a child has its father's attention.

Anyway; what it boils down to is this: the spirit of His son always compels
Christ's believing followers to call out to a father, never to a mother and the
reason for that is actually quite simple. Christ never prays to a mother; but
always to a father; hence those inhabited by his spirit will do the very same
thing.

That, by the way, is a pretty good litmus test. If somebody is comfortable
praying to Christ's mom, then that's pretty good evidence that they are not
inhabited by the spirit of God's son; which means of course that they have
not yet undergone adoption into His home.

†. Rom 8:15-17 . . For you have not received a spirit of bondage again to
fear; but you have received a spirit of adoption, whereby we call out: Abba!
Father. The Spirit itself testifies to our spirit, that we are God's kin.

The pronouns "you" and "we" and "our' in that passage are of course
restricted to people who have been given the spirit of adoption. Obviously
then; those who don't have it, are quite christless; and in grave danger of
the lake of fire depicted at Rev 20:11-15.

†. Rom 8:9 . . If anyone does not have the spirit of Christ, he does not
belong to Christ.

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Webers_Home

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†. Luke 11:1-2 . . One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he
finished, one of his disciples said to him: Lord, teach us to pray, just as John
taught his disciples. He said to them: When you pray, say: Father

There are no instances of the Lord and Master of New Testament
Christianity-- nor of any of the inspired New Testament writers --either
commanding, teaching, encouraging, leading by example, or even so much
as suggesting --that prayer be made to celestial beings and/or deceased
human beings: and for good reason. Christ-- himself a devoted, observant
Jew --never prayed to his mother, nor to celestial beings, nor to deceased
human beings, nor to anybody other than the one true God of the Jews: his
Father.

Since that was the Son's habit (and also his instructions), then that very
same compulsion should be evident in all God's kin since they are supposed
to be recipients of the only begotten Son's filial mentality.

†. Gal 4:6a . . And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the spirit of His
son into your hearts

The nature of a son's spirit is quite a bit different than the nature of a
father's spirit or the nature of a mother's spirit. In particular; Christ's spirit is
the mentality of God's offspring. So that anyone who truly has the Son's
spirit in their hearts should be experiencing the very same personal filial
bond with the Father that Jesus experiences.

Recipients of the spirit of His son are also recipients of another kind of sprit
too.

†. Rom 8:15-17 . . For you have not received a spirit of bondage again to
fear; but you have received a spirit of adoption, whereby we call out: Abba!
Father.

Here's how the spirit of adoption works:

If I were to meet President Barack Hussein Obama, I would have to make an
appointment first; and then stand back and address him as Sir or Mister
President. But his two daughters Sasha and Malia can run right up uninvited
and cling to his arm because he's their father; and they call him daddy. Now
if the Obama's should adopt a little boy some day, he will have all the very
same rights and privileges as the Obama's natural born daughters; including
a right to inherit. Their new son would have every right to run up uninvited
to Mr. Obama yelling: Daddy! Daddy! Daddy! and cling to his other arm.

In other words: the spirit of adoption imparts to God's legal children a
heartfelt bond with God that enables them to feel the love, and the
friendship, and the security feelings that normal boys and girls feel with their
birth parents.

Some professing Christians think it's disrespectful to regard the Bible's God
as a dad. But that kind of thinking isn't the mentality of a child in the home;
no, that is the mentality of hired hands, and subjects, and vassals, and
slaves. I am none of those; no, I am kin to The King. There's a place of my
own all set around the table in His home waiting for me to arrive.

Do you see now why I cannot pray to Christ's mom? It's just simply
impossible to overcome not only my family ties to Christ's Father, but also
the powerful impulses of the spirit of adoption. The spirit of adoption always
wins out over all other spirits when it comes time for me to pray because it
just naturally compels me to use a vocative to get my adoptive Father's
attention without my even thinking about it.

Adoption severs any and all obligations related to one's biological parents;
and in the eyes of the law, one's adoptive parents are just as "biological" as
the originals. Though I was at one time the son of an earthly father, I am
now the legal son of a celestial father so that Christ is not only my master;
but also my sibling; and in point of fact, since his mom is a Christian, then
she too is my sibling; and all three of us share the same paterfamilias
together.

†. John 20:17 . . Go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my
Father, and unto your Father; and unto my God, and unto your God.

What this all boils down to is that God's kin should feel an overwhelming
compulsion to pray to their adoptive Father without their having to be told
to. It should come naturally (so to speak), just as naturally as it came to
Jesus. And they should feel an equally overwhelming revulsion praying to
somebody else.

So then, people with a habit of praying to celestial beings, and/or ordinary
human beings like Christ's mom and departed saints, obviously have neither
the spirit of God's son in their heart, nor the spirit of adoption, compelling
them to call out to its Father. No, the spirit in their heart compels them to
call out to pagan gods.

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Webers_Home

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Some co-workers of mine who soldiered in Viet Nam during the decade of
the 70's, related to me how they were detailed to go out into the jungle and
tally the number of VC dead so that high command could evaluate the
effectiveness of heavy bombing runs. The enemy's bodies were often ripped
to pieces making the dead difficult to count; so what the guys did was
scrounge up enough body parts to assemble a John Doe; then they could
enter the man they assembled into the log as a dead soldier. That came to
be known as a kick-count.

What Catholicism has done is cobble up an alleged biblical prayer by piecing
together excerpts of Gabriel's and Elizabeth's dialogue; in effect, scrounging
up a kick-count prayer.

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, the "Hail Mary" is not an in-the-Bible
prayer, but is a developed prayer; and it was developed over a number of
years.

Here's the entire text of the so-called Hail Mary. Words enclosed by brackets
are inserted words.

Hail [Mary] full of grace, the Lord is with thee,
blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb [Jesus].
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

"Hail, the Lord is with thee" was plagiarized from Gabriel's greeting at Luke
1:28 (Douay-Rheims version).

"[Mary] full of grace" is fabricated.

"blessed art thou amongst women" was plagiarized from Elizabeth's greeting
at Luke 1:42 (Douay-Rheims version).

"blessed is the fruit of thy womb" was also plagiarized from Elizabeth's
greeting at Luke 1:42 (Douay-Rheims version).

"Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our
death. Amen." is stated by the official Catechism of the Council of Trent to
have been fabricated by the Church itself.

Obviously then, portions of the Hail Mary, in its official form, are borrowed
from the Bible; but the body text of the prayer itself, is not actually in the
Bible; but rather, it's a man-made supplication concocted from plagiarized
excerpts of conversations between Christ's mom, Gabriel, and Elizabeth;
with an ending invocation composed entirely by Roman Catholic imagination.

The Father's legitimate children would never recite a rote mantra like the
Ave Maria because they're commanded to approach the throne of grace with
candor.

†. Heb 4:16 . . Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we
may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

The Greek word for "boldly" is parrhesia (par-rhay-see'-ah) which means all
out-spokenness, i.e. frankness, bluntness, and/or confidence.

In other words: the Father's legitimate children are not supposed to be shy
about speaking up and telling their Father exactly what's on their minds.
Mantras like the Ave Maria are not what I call forthright, out-spoken,
frankness and/or speaking up.

NOTE
: I cannot imagine anybody talking to their own mother with rote
mantras so how nutsy is it attempting to contact Christ's mother with rote
mantras?

†. Jude 1:20 . . Continue to pray as you are directed by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit speaks for Christ (John 16:13-14). So then, it is Christ's
wishes that his Father's children communicate with God rather than
somebody else.

†. Rom 8:15-17 . . For you have not received a spirit of bondage again to
fear; but you have received a spirit of adoption, whereby we call out: Abba!
Father.

†. Gal 4:6 . . And because you are sons, God has sent forth the spirit of His
son into your hearts calling out: Abba! Father.

He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

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Barrd

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...following a Jewish carpenter...
Hmmm...the one who left the Catholic church is secure and firm in his faith. Hallelujah.

The one who stayed says that he is afraid he is losing his faith.


There is a lesson here...

I will pray for you, Aspen.
 

Webers_Home

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In essence, the beads of a rosary are little more than a string of rote prayers
rather than the candor commanded by Heb 4:16. So then rosaries are in
essence a string of mantras repeated over and over and over again, which is
a clear violation of not only Heb 4:16, but also Christ's God-given teachings.

†. Matt 6:7-9 . . In praying, do not babble like the pagans, who think that
they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them: your
Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

I appeal not only to your reason, but also to your sensibilities. Suppose the
door bell rang one day and when you opened up-- yikes! --it was God
himself in person! Would you welcome God into your home by reading from
a missal and/or chanting a rosary; or would you greet Him as you do real
visitors? Well, the Bible's God is real; so treat Him with the courtesy and
respect that His intelligence deserves if you expect Him to reciprocate and
treat you with courtesy and respect in return.

Do you speak to your friends, your associates, your spouse, your domestic
partner, your significant other, your doctor, your dentist, supermarket
cashiers, or the cops by repeating the same thing over and over again? Of
course not. They would write you off as one in desperate need of therapy if
you did. Then why would anyone think it makes sense to speak to God by
saying the same thing over and over again?

Don't you think He looks upon rote chanters as mental cases when they do
that? Of course He does; who wouldn't? How would you like it if everybody
spoke to you like that? Well, He doesn't like it either. God is far more
intelligent than anybody you could possibly name and rote chanters are
treating Him like a totem pole. The Bible's God is a king who deserves far
more respect than a US President yet people are speaking to Him like a tape
recorder rather than the ultimate Sovereign that He is.

Don't ever treat Christ's father like some sort of sounding board. Not even
Forrest Gump would appreciate being spoken to in rote, and God's IQ is way
higher than Forrest's; so how do you suppose He feels about being
addressed in rote. The Bible's God is a sentient, sensible person; and we all
need to show some respect for His intelligence. I guarantee He will be most
grateful for your regard.

According to Christ, his Father is dissatisfied with rituals; preferring instead
honest, heart to heart associations with His worshippers.

†. John 4:23-24 . . A time is coming, and has now come, when the true
worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of
worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship
in spirit and in truth.

A very serious flaw with rosaries is the number of mantras devoted, not to
God, but to a woman-- Jesus' mom --which is in direct opposition to the
spirit of God's son, and the spirit of adoption.

†. Rom 8:15-17 . . For you have not received a spirit of bondage again to
fear; but you have received a spirit of adoption, whereby we call out: Abba!
Father.

†. Gal 4:6 . . And because you are sons, God has sent forth the spirit of His
son into your hearts calling out: Abba! Father.

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