Why I Would Not Like Jesus

[Wrangler]

If you are easily offended stop reading now.












I'm not sure what forum this should be in. I put it in the Ethics and Morality forum because the basis of my dislike is grounded in a sacred cow, lying of the Messiah. Of course, no one will admit this is lying because of the sacred cow. What do you call it when you deliberately use words incorrectly, deceptively, unnecessarily and overly figuratively? Politicians are hated for this; speaking with a forked tongue; saying one thing but meaning another.

This pattern is seen throughout the Gospels and Jesus admitted using parables to fulfill prophecy. However, today's devotional reading is no kind of parable and reveals why I would not like Jesus especially concisely. In Matthew 16:11 Jesus asks, "Why can't you understand that I am not talking about bread?"

The simple answer is 'because words have meaning and you are using the word bread.' V12 explains they finally understood he was talking about the deceptiveness (of the teaching of the religious leaders).
A is A.
Bread is bread.
Deceptiveness is deceptiveness.

I was taught a good communication technique is to say what you mean and mean what you say. This is not only effective communication but effective teaching. Jesus may have been a teacher but he obviously was not an effective teacher using any objective standard. Imagine any other teacher whose own students don't understand him and his teachings ended up getting him killed? Enter the sacred cow. Oh but from a spiritual perspective ...

I get it! Jesus is the son of God and was given all authority. That really doesn't change anything about the truth of what I'm saying.

 

[Spyder]

If you are easily offended stop reading now.












I'm not sure what forum this should be in. I put it in the Ethics and Morality forum because the basis of my dislike is grounded in a sacred cow, lying of the Messiah. Of course, no one will admit this is lying because of the sacred cow. What do you call it when you deliberately use words incorrectly, deceptively, unnecessarily and overly figuratively? Politicians are hated for this; speaking with a forked tongue; saying one thing but meaning another.

This pattern is seen throughout the Gospels and Jesus admitted using parables to fulfill prophecy. However, today's devotional reading is no kind of parable and reveals why I would not like Jesus especially concisely. In Matthew 16:11 Jesus asks, "Why can't you understand that I am not talking about bread?"

The simple answer is 'because words have meaning and you are using the word bread.' V12 explains they finally understood he was talking about the deceptiveness (of the teaching of the religious leaders).
A is A.
Bread is bread.
Deceptiveness is deceptiveness.

I was taught a good communication technique is to say what you mean and mean what you say. This is not only effective communication but effective teaching. Jesus may have been a teacher but he obviously was not an effective teacher using any objective standard. Imagine any other teacher whose own students don't understand him and his teachings ended up getting him killed? Enter the sacred cow. Oh but from a spiritual perspective ...

I get it! Jesus is the son of God and was given all authority. That really doesn't change anything about the truth of what I'm saying.

Interesting to me that you are discussing "bread." The scriptures do not indicate that Jesus was talking about bread but about leaven.

It was the disciples who equated "leaven" with "loaves" which gets translated to bread in some bibles.



While Jesus specifically was talking about the teachings of the Pharisees and Sadducees, the disciples were apparently quick to assume other than the word spoken. Modern teachers have to help students avoid that mistake.

2219 zýmē – leaven (yeast); (figuratively) the spreading influence of what is typically concealed (but still very dramatic). Leaven is generally a symbol of the spreading nature of evil, but note the exception at Lk 13:20:21 (parallel Mt 13:32,33).

 

[Wrangler]

2219 zýmē – leaven (yeast); (figuratively) the spreading influence of what is typically concealed (but still very dramatic). Leaven is generally a symbol of the spreading nature of evil, but note the exception at Lk 13:20:21 (parallel Mt 13:32,33).

Figurative exceptions?! I'm getting a head ache. LOL

 

[Deborah_]

I was taught a good communication technique is to say what you mean and mean what you say. This is not only effective communication but effective teaching. Jesus may have been a teacher but he obviously was not an effective teacher using any objective standard.

Is there no place for the use of analogy and metaphor?
And doesn't a really good teacher try to make his students think, rather than just giving them plain facts?

 

[quietthinker]

If you are easily offended stop reading now.












I'm not sure what forum this should be in. I put it in the Ethics and Morality forum because the basis of my dislike is grounded in a sacred cow, lying of the Messiah. Of course, no one will admit this is lying because of the sacred cow. What do you call it when you deliberately use words incorrectly, deceptively, unnecessarily and overly figuratively? Politicians are hated for this; speaking with a forked tongue; saying one thing but meaning another.

This pattern is seen throughout the Gospels and Jesus admitted using parables to fulfill prophecy. However, today's devotional reading is no kind of parable and reveals why I would not like Jesus especially concisely. In Matthew 16:11 Jesus asks, "Why can't you understand that I am not talking about bread?"

The simple answer is 'because words have meaning and you are using the word bread.' V12 explains they finally understood he was talking about the deceptiveness (of the teaching of the religious leaders).
A is A.
Bread is bread.
Deceptiveness is deceptiveness.

I was taught a good communication technique is to say what you mean and mean what you say. This is not only effective communication but effective teaching. Jesus may have been a teacher but he obviously was not an effective teacher using any objective standard. Imagine any other teacher whose own students don't understand him and his teachings ended up getting him killed? Enter the sacred cow. Oh but from a spiritual perspective ...

I get it! Jesus is the son of God and was given all authority. That really doesn't change anything about the truth of what I'm saying.

Is it because metaphors are not understood by you, you are quick to throw them out as poor communication?

 

[Lambano]

I was taught a good communication technique is to say what you mean and mean what you say.

I'm an engineer. I write specs. I interpret specs. In a spec document, you cannot have ambiguity. So, by my native temperament, I have to agree with @Wrangler.

I also don't like Jesus's stated reason for speaking in parables:

And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but for those who are outside, everything comes in parables, so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT TURN AND BE FORGIVEN.” (Mark 4:11-12)

And we wouldn't want that, would we?

But here's another quote from Jesus:

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these bear witness of Me. (John 10:25)

Yeah. Healing the sick, feeding 5000 people with 2 loaves and fishes, walking on water, raising the dead.... Yeah, I can hear that loud and clear. So, Jesus doesn't give me the choice. I have to play on His turf. I HAVE to engage the parables and other indirect language on His terms.

Like a wise old forum moderator once said, "I understand the rules. I don't have to like them."

 

[Lambano]

Is there no place for the use of analogy and metaphor?
And doesn't a really good teacher try to make his students think, rather than just giving them plain facts?

I think ... the lesson sticks better if the student has to engage the teaching - and has to own the reasoning thereof.

I note that the Syro-Phoenician took Jesus's "Dog" metaphor/insult and turned it around on Him. 27 “First let the children eat all they want,” he told her, “for it is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.” 28 “Lord,” she replied, “even the dogs under the table eat the children’s crumbs.” Jesus loved it, and healed her daughter. (Mark 7:24-29 and synoptic parallels.) He also liked the Centurion's metaphor in Matthew 8:5-13.

(And I love your answer.)

 

[Wrangler]

Is it because metaphors are not understood by you, you are quick to throw them out as poor communication?

Don't put the blame on me. There is a time for metaphors and a time for straight talk.

Using metaphors is poor communication when you are frustrated that the other party does not understand you.

 

[Wrangler]

So, Jesus doesn't give me the choice. I have to play on His turf. I HAVE to engage the parables and other indirect language on His terms.

No sir. There is no "have to" about it! There is frustration on Jesus' part for the other party not understanding AND the other party remaining in a state of not understanding. That is, there is the scenario of FAILURE to communicate (that stands for all time).

I've observed the best speeches express simple thoughts in no uncertain terms. Churchill's 'We will fight on the beaches. We will fight in the fields. We will fight in the streets. We will never surrender" comes to mind. Jesus also has this capacity, "Come, follow me." By contrast, using metaphors are all about using uncertain terms. Overdone, nobody knows what the hell you are talking about.

Another thing to keep in mind is the audience. Jesus was not talking to men of letters, expertise in flowery language usage. In fact, he even thanked God that he did not reveal himself to the learned. Matthew 11:25. Jesus admitted his audience was child-like. They even humbly expressed themselves that they did not understand what they hell he was talking about. They asked him to explain! This is NOT the time to use metaphors. You know you are talking to child-like people who don't understand the metaphors but you:

1. Continue to use metaphors
2. Are frustrated with them not understanding non-explicit language usage

What is that all about?!

 

[Wrangler]

Is there no place for the use of analogy and metaphor?

<sigh> Ever read Ecclesiastes? There is a time and a season for everything under heaven.

In the context of Matthew 16, the place might have been before his audience humbly said they didn't understand. In another place in Scripture Jesus was mocked for saying a dead girl was 'sleeping' but he eventually admitted the simple truth that she was dead. He didn't do that in Matthew 16.

 

[Lambano]

No sir. There is no "have to" about it!

Well, Jesus ain't gonna change the way He does His thing, so either I engage Him on His own terms, or I ignore him. Or outright oppose Him. A lot of His contemporaries decided to do just that.

 

[Wrangler]

I engage Him on His own terms, or I ignore him.

False Alternative. I'm not suggesting anyone ignore the lord of heaven and Earth. I just don't like over-use of metaphors causing communication to not happen and frustration by both sides.

 

[IndianaRob]

If you are easily offended stop reading now.












I'm not sure what forum this should be in. I put it in the Ethics and Morality forum because the basis of my dislike is grounded in a sacred cow, lying of the Messiah. Of course, no one will admit this is lying because of the sacred cow. What do you call it when you deliberately use words incorrectly, deceptively, unnecessarily and overly figuratively? Politicians are hated for this; speaking with a forked tongue; saying one thing but meaning another.

This pattern is seen throughout the Gospels and Jesus admitted using parables to fulfill prophecy. However, today's devotional reading is no kind of parable and reveals why I would not like Jesus especially concisely. In Matthew 16:11 Jesus asks, "Why can't you understand that I am not talking about bread?"

The simple answer is 'because words have meaning and you are using the word bread.' V12 explains they finally understood he was talking about the deceptiveness (of the teaching of the religious leaders).
A is A.
Bread is bread.
Deceptiveness is deceptiveness.

I was taught a good communication technique is to say what you mean and mean what you say. This is not only effective communication but effective teaching. Jesus may have been a teacher but he obviously was not an effective teacher using any objective standard. Imagine any other teacher whose own students don't understand him and his teachings ended up getting him killed? Enter the sacred cow. Oh but from a spiritual perspective ...

I get it! Jesus is the son of God and was given all authority. That really doesn't change anything about the truth of what I'm saying.

Excellent thread! The Bible is written this way because the Bible is an esoteric book and the deeper doctrines (the meat) is only meant to be understood by those that are born again.

 

[Lambano]

False Alternative. I'm not suggesting anyone ignore the lord of heaven and Earth. I just don't like over-use of metaphors causing communication to not happen and frustration by both sides.

Let us know if you were successful in getting Him to change. I'm sure He'll give your concerns all due consideration.

 

[quietthinker]

Don't put the blame on me. There is a time for metaphors and a time for straight talk.

Using metaphors is poor communication when you are frustrated that the other party does not understand you.

so you assume Jesus doesn't understand you and uses inappropriate language to communicate?

 

[quietthinker]

I'm an engineer. I write specs. I interpret specs. In a spec document, you cannot have ambiguity. So, by my native temperament, I have to agree with @Wrangler. I also don't like Jesus's stated reason for speaking in parables:

And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but for those who are outside, everything comes in parables, so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT TURN AND BE FORGIVEN.” (Mark 4:11-12)

And we wouldn't want that, would we?

But here's another quote from Jesus:

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these bear witness of Me. (John 10:25)

Yeah. Healing the sick, feeding 5000 people with 2 loaves and fishes, walking on water, raising the dead.... Yeah, I can hear that loud and clear. So, Jesus doesn't give me the choice. I have to play on His turf. I HAVE to engage the parables and other indirect language on His terms.

Like a wise old forum moderator once said, "I understand the rules. I don't have to like them."

What in your view Lambano is The Kingdom of God?.......cuz that is what Jesus came to communicate isn't it?

 

[quietthinker]

Don't put the blame on me. There is a time for metaphors and a time for straight talk.

Using metaphors is poor communication when you are frustrated that the other party does not understand you.

How do you tell (convince) someone you love them when at their core they think they're a piece of sh't?

 

[quietthinker]

By contrast, using metaphors are all about using uncertain terms. Overdone, nobody knows what the hell you are talking about.

When for millennia cultures have maintained and insisted on a faulty understanding of the character of God; when Satan has so pulled the wool over their eyes to the point that they murder God himself, breaking through is an effort in diplomacy only 'babes' have the capacity to get......but of course the learned are not babes; that is too much for them to admit in their self appointed roles of the 'purveyors of God's purposes'

 

[quietthinker]

Is there no place for the use of analogy and metaphor?
And doesn't a really good teacher try to make his students think, rather than just giving them plain facts?

Metaphors are an integral part of any language. When we casually use the expression 'it's raining cats and dogs', those unschooled in our particular culture will wonder what felines and other fury creatures are doing dropping out of the sky.

 

[quietthinker]

False Alternative. I'm not suggesting anyone ignore the lord of heaven and Earth. I just don't like over-use of metaphors causing communication to not happen and frustration by both sides.

....and even today 2000 yrs after THE event, Israel maintains its assumed superior understanding of matters relating to God revealed in their mantra of choice 'The most important commandment is this: “Hear, O Israel, the Eternal One is our God, and the Eternal One is the only God.'