Why Jews And Gentiles Are Kept Separate ??

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dan p

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Hi to all , and it is not me that keeps the Jews separate from Gentiles .

#1 , Today anyone can be saved Jews and Gentiles and we all lose our IDENTITY in the Body of Christ .

#2 , But antone that keeps the Law of Moses loses their IDENTITY and then become Jews as Acts 1:10 and become PROSELYTES .

#3 , In Ex 19;6 Israel will become a Kingdom of Priest and all are Jews and not Gentiles .

#4 , Then we see in Revelation 1:6 that Israel will be Kings and Priests unto God and His Father .

#5 , How can that be since I am " in Christ n" part of His Body ???

Here , in Num 23:9 settles it for me , '" the people of Israel shall not be RECKONED among the Gentiles !!

Because the Gentiles were Unclean and considered Dogs and were only allowed the crumbs that fell fron the table of the Jews , and who said that , why Jesus .

These conculsions are easily seen through out the Bible and the Gospel as Jew are in Covenant Relationship with God and will alway be . dan p
 

Martin W.

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DANp

Just a quick note Dan
----there were Israelis who became Christians
----there were gentiles who became Christians
----these two groups are one and equal under Christ.
---I think that was the point (equality under Christ)

Yet Paul clearly states that all Israel will be saved. (in Romans etc) He is referring to the non-christian Israel as well.

God has a covenant (by his choosing) with Israel.
---he sent the messiah
---not all Israel accepted him
---God opened the door for the gentiles (the non-chosen)
---billions (gentiles) have accepted Messiah

--God will remind chosen Israel , that the un-washed , non-chosen gentiles recognized messiah ..... so what is their problem not recognizing Him ?? (in other words , they are without excuse)

Yet , god keeps his original covenant with Israel for his own reasons. .... And All Israel will be saved.

In the future 10 gentile (Christians) will grab the hem of one Israeli and say .... take us to Jerusalem ......

God still deals with them as a distinct (and chosen) people now , and in the future.

Remember that in the future the full number of the gentiles will have come in , the door is closed , and Israel is back in full focus.

Summary .... yes Jew and gentile are equal under Christ ..... but god still retains unique plans for Israel , separate from church plans.

We must always keep this in mind while looking toward future events. Otherwise prophecy doesn't work. The pieces will not fit .

During 2000 years of church , God has scattered Israel , punished Israel , re-gathered Israel , and still has un-fulfilled plans for Israel.

One only has to look toward the Middle East , it is right there in front of us.

Since May 1948 there has probably not been one day when Israel was not on the world news.

Distinct , separate , and unique Israel , the nation God has chosen to reveal himself to the world. He has done much and more is to come.

Understand that , and prophecy becomes much easier to structure.

The whole thing has always been in front of us (in the bible) , we just need structure.

Help is on the way.

Arnie MartinW.
Hanging on the gentile branch grafted into Israel.
 

dan p

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Mar 26, 2009
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DANp

Just a quick note Dan
----there were Israelis who became Christians
----there were gentiles who became Christians
----these two groups are one and equal under Christ.
---I think that was the point (equality under Christ)

Yet Paul clearly states that all Israel will be saved. (in Romans etc) He is referring to the non-christian Israel as well.

God has a covenant (by his choosing) with Israel.
---he sent the messiah
---not all Israel accepted him
---God opened the door for the gentiles (the non-chosen)
---billions (gentiles) have accepted Messiah

--God will remind chosen Israel , that the un-washed , non-chosen gentiles recognized messiah ..... so what is their problem not recognizing Him ?? (in other words , they are without excuse)

Yet , god keeps his original covenant with Israel for his own reasons. .... And All Israel will be saved.

In the future 10 gentile (Christians) will grab the hem of one Israeli and say .... take us to Jerusalem ......

God still deals with them as a distinct (and chosen) people now , and in the future.

Remember that in the future the full number of the gentiles will have come in , the door is closed , and Israel is back in full focus.

Summary .... yes Jew and gentile are equal under Christ ..... but god still retains unique plans for Israel , separate from church plans.

We must always keep this in mind while looking toward future events. Otherwise prophecy doesn't work. The pieces will not fit .

During 2000 years of church , God has scattered Israel , punished Israel , re-gathered Israel , and still has un-fulfilled plans for Israel.

One only has to look toward the Middle East , it is right there in front of us.

Since May 1948 there has probably not been one day when Israel was not on the world news.

Distinct , separate , and unique Israel , the nation God has chosen to reveal himself to the world. He has done much and more is to come.

Understand that , and prophecy becomes much easier to structure.

The whole thing has always been in front of us (in the bible) , we just need structure.

Help is on the way.

Arnie MartinW.
Hanging on the gentile branch grafted into Israel.

Hi Martin , and you have written many things that are true , I need to know where ther are Christians in the Gospels OR where are there Christians i9n the Tribulation OR where are there Christians in the Millennium ????

Yes are of Israel is in Unbelieve as all of Rom 11:25 reports and are all blindness , until the FULNESS of the Gentiles be come in , or until the Departure/Rapture .

And Rom 11:26 says all Israel will be saved .

By the way , who do you think the #666 really trying to corrupt , Jews OR Gentiles ???
 

veteran

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Some traditions of men in that which are not Biblical.

Apostle Paul well showed in Romans 11 that God preserved a faithful remnant of the seed of Israel as the remnant according to the election of grace. And of those Israelites Christ sent His Apostles to preach The Gospel to the Gentiles. But to Gentiles only? No.

Acts 9:15
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
(KJV)


Paul was sent to preach The Gospel to 3 groups, not just the Gentiles.

Sorry if that upsets the false tradition of a Gentile only Church, but that's what it does.


God's Promises first given to Abraham includes His Promised Salvation through His Saviour Jesus Christ. And that Promise was later connected with the new name Israel which He gave to Jacob.

But which Israel kept that Promise of Christ's Salvation? Unbelieving Israel? No. It continued through the believing seed of Israel, where it manifested among them scattered among the Gentiles. Both are to become one as Christ's Body.

But those believing Israelites in Christ's Body will never lose their heritage as God's true Israel per His Promised Salvation. That's why our Lord Jesus promised His Apostles would in final sit upon 12 thrones judging over the 12 tribes of Israel. It's why the New Jerusalem will have 12 gates with the names of the 12 tribes of Israel upon them in God's future Kingdom.

It's why God said He is going to join the two houses of Israel that are apart back into one nation in the holy land again under Christ Jesus. That has yet to happen today, because the state of Israel in the holy land today still refuses Christ as a majority.

So when our Lord Jesus does return to gather His saints, those are made up of both believing Israelites and Gentiles, together as one Body, what Apostle Paul called "the commonwealth of Israel" in Ephesians 2. Can't just separate God's Salvation name Israel from Christ's Salvation. It's both one and the same, and is Christ's Church even today.
 

Vengle53

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Hello Danp.

Martin W said, "Paul clearly states that all Israel will be saved. (in Romans etc) He is referring to the non-christian Israel as well."

I appreciate Martin W's sincerity.

Much of the variations of people's interpretations of the Bible's teaching are the result of ambiguity making its way into the translator's exegesis of scripture. For example, the simple phrase "the love of God" can mean either God's love toward us or our love toward God. And depending upon which way our mind latches onto hearing that phrase, our interpretation is affected.

Ponder Martin W's thought, as quoted above, against the following Bible passage: Acts 10:34-35 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

Now calmly ask yourself, 'If what Martin W has said is true, then could it be true that "in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him"?

When Peter expounded how God's selection is made, (by fearing God and working righteousness), and then said that "in every nation" those doing this are accepted by God, was Peter saying that it would occur differently for non-Christian Israel? Did not Peter's phrase "every nation" also include Israel?

Here is the principle that holds true for Israel of the flesh: Romans 9:27 "Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved."

And that is how God is doing with "every nation". Peter was correct when he said, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons ..." We are born again unto a righteous progenitor of seed, a true Israelite, meaning in its gist, "Clinger with God". Adam proved not to cling to God. We had to be born away from Adam who made himself to be an unrighteous progenitor of seed, and we must be transplanted into the loins of Jesus Christ who is a progenitor of righteous seed, not having made himself otherwise.

1 Corinthians 15:21-22 "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

1 Corinthians 15:45 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."

I ask you Danp, who proved to be the true Israelite? The punishment for sin is death, is it not? All men had sinned with the exception of who?

Who is it then that can have life outside of Christ? John 6:53 "Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you."

Jesus won the right to the fulfillment of the promises under the Law, even those you have mentioned. He was both the only pure Israelite and the unblemished (sinless) Lamb of God.

Israel is being born again in Jesus. Are not a father's children also his nationality? And it is thus we see that indeed "all Israel will be saved'.

Romans 9:6-8 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." And Jesus alone holds the rights to that promise, he being the only one faithful unto death while under that Old Law. Everyone else that Law killed due the its sentence upon sin. But by grace we are able to repent and begin again in Christ, sharing the fruits from his victory over sin.

Galatians 3:22-29 "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterward be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."


There is so much i could yet expound for you. It is too easy for me to place more than one can consume in one meal out in front of them.

I will therefore stop here and take it one question at a time here forward.
 

veteran

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Don't consider Paul's words there in Romans 11 about "all Israel" lightly, nor the Scripture around it that goes with what Paul said there...


Rom 11:25-29
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(KJV)


Paul reveals that many of unbelieving seed of Israel refuse Christ because of blindness put upon them (see Isaiah 28-29). That's what Paul was covering back at Rom.11:8. Our Heavenly Father did that blindness upon them.

And He did that so His Savlation would go to the Gentiles also.

Paul also put a condition time for their blindness when he said, "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

Not only that, but Paul also points to how they are STILL God's election and beloved, as God's calling is without repentance.

So who are we to say that only the limited number of Israelites WE see today coming to Christ are only those Paul declared there?

There's many OT Scriptures written of God's Promise to turn the seed of Israel back to Him in final.
 

Vengle53

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Romans chapter eleven is the principal text that gets confused in support of the idea that "all Israel will be saved" means all the flesh and blood Israel just as we see in the Middle East today, but that interpretation fails under closer scrutiny of Romans chapter eleven, and of the entirety of the scriptures.

Romans 11:1 "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin."

It occurred to me here in verse one that there must be a reason why Paul is arguing to the Gentile Roman congregation that he as a Jew was not cast away from God.

Romans 11:13 "For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:"

In the context of chapters nine through twelve of Paul's letter to the Romans we find that the Gentiles had become rather frustrated with and somewhat dogmatic of the natural non-Christian Jews because of their persecution of the Churches of God that followed Christ. This was affecting the zeal of the Gentiles to preach to Paul's fellow Jews as to the flesh and that was grieving Paul so that his letter here is for the purpose of correcting that problem.

So what was Paul telling these Gentiles in the opening verses of chapter eleven? An inspection of Paul's counsel to the Gentiles for their attitude and of his encouragement to them to begin to preach zealously to his fellow Jews, (as is seen particularly in chapters ten and eleven), is better understood when the translation of Romans chapter eleven and verse thirty-two is set straight.

Romans 11:32 For <G1063> God <G2316> hath concluded <G4788> them <G9999> all <G3956> in <G1519> unbelief <G0543>, that <G2443> he might have mercy <G1653> upon all <G3956>.

The Strong's reference number <9999> means that the word is added by that translator and does not appear in the original text. Therefore, the word "them" is an added word.

What is the significance of this? Take the two verses and verse 32 together without the added word, "them": Romans 11:30-32 "For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."

Doing this we see that Paul told the Roman Gentiles there, exactly what he told the Galatians Christians: Galatians 3:22 "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe."

Romans 14:23 "... whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

In rejecting Christ as "the Righteousness of God", the unbelieving Jews placed themselves in the same predicament as the unbelieving Gentiles.

You might be tempted to argue that my saying they "placed themselves" in that predicament defies places like Romans 11:8 '(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day." It does not. The Greek word "didomi". there translated "hath given", has broad meaning. It can, and in this case does, mean that God permitted them to go the way of their own inclination.

The Greek word used at chapter eleven verse thirty-two for "unbelief" comes from the thought of one being unwilling to be persuaded. Thus such ones are stubbornly disobedient. This is no different than the gentiles who are also stubborn and disobedient. Just as God seeks for the meek among the gentiles, so also he seeks for the meek among Jews. Romans 10:10-13 "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

God no doubt could break anyone of that stubborn blindness, whether Gentile or Jew, if he saw a value in it. And for those willing to be humbled among both Gentiles and the Jews he does do just that. He smashes us to pieces like a clay vessel and then he builds us up again into something useful. But he does not force us to benefit from his discipline of us against our will. He may put the disaster in our way but it is up to us to humble our self and cooperate with his building us up to something better.

That is why Jew and Gentile alike are counseled: 1 Peter 5:5-6 "... be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:"
 

Martin W.

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One of the best ways to see Israel as a distinct people and nation is simply to look at the unfulfilled future events (prophecy) in the Old testament. There are lots of them , and it is the nation and people Israel in the Middle East. It is not anyone else. This is plain to see.

They are in unbelief , as far as the gospel is concerned , but they are still in the running for some main events as far as God is concerned.

One being some repercussions against the nations who want to eliminate Israel from the map. God will again use Israel to prove himself to the world.


All this mixing and blending and confusion stems from mistaken Christians who "spiritualized Israel" for almost 2000 years because the actual Nation of Israel was long forgotten.

Most of these errors were corrected since the re-gathering in 1948 , but there is still a stubborn group of folks who cling to the "old traditions of men"
 

veteran

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Romans chapter eleven is the principal text that gets confused in support of the idea that "all Israel will be saved" means all the flesh and blood Israel just as we see in the Middle East today, but that interpretation fails under closer scrutiny of Romans chapter eleven, and of the entirety of the scriptures.

Romans 11:1 "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin."

It occurred to me here in verse one that there must be a reason why Paul is arguing to the Gentile Roman congregation that he as a Jew was not cast away from God.

Romans 11:13 "For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:"

In the context of chapters nine through twelve of Paul's letter to the Romans we find that the Gentiles had become rather frustrated with and somewhat dogmatic of the natural non-Christian Jews because of their persecution of the Churches of God that followed Christ. This was affecting the zeal of the Gentiles to preach to Paul's fellow Jews as to the flesh and that was grieving Paul so that his letter here is for the purpose of correcting that problem.

Why do you JUMP PAST the Romans 11:2-12 verses? Doing that is exactly what men's doctrines do, selecting only the parts of God's Word they can use to try and push their own doctrines. What Apostle Paul was correcting among those Gentiles was how they were puffed up in thinking ONLY THEY were saved, and that God had cast away the seed of Israel. Paul shows differently in that Romans 11 chapter, and even warned those Gentiles to not be so conceited lest they also be cut off.


So what was Paul telling these Gentiles in the opening verses of chapter eleven? An inspection of Paul's counsel to the Gentiles for their attitude and of his encouragement to them to begin to preach zealously to his fellow Jews, (as is seen particularly in chapters ten and eleven), is better understood when the translation of Romans chapter eleven and verse thirty-two is set straight.

Romans 11:32 For <G1063> God <G2316> hath concluded <G4788> them <G9999> all <G3956> in <G1519> unbelief <G0543>, that <G2443> he might have mercy <G1653> upon all <G3956>.

The Strong's reference number <9999> means that the word is added by that translator and does not appear in the original text. Therefore, the word "them" is an added word.

What is the significance of this? Take the two verses and verse 32 together without the added word, "them": Romans 11:30-32 "For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."

Doing this we see that Paul told the Roman Gentiles there, exactly what he told the Galatians Christians: Galatians 3:22 "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe."

Romans 14:23 "... whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

In rejecting Christ as "the Righteousness of God", the unbelieving Jews placed themselves in the same predicament as the unbelieving Gentiles.

That's still not what Paul was talking about, which becomes clear to anyone that reads the first section of verses of Romans 11, the verses you left out. That God has concluded all in unbelief so that His Salvation would be to those of Faith on Christ Jesus doesn't change Paul's subject there of how God had preserved an elect remnant of the seed of Israel according to the election of GRACE. Nor does it change God's OT prophecy about the seed of Israel in final which Paul was quoting from the OT prophets, AND REMINDING THOSE GENTILES OF.

Hanging your own doctrine on that Greek word is fallacy.

You would do well in taking Apostle Paul's advice there in Romans 11 which he gave to believing Gentiles about literal Israel not being forgotten by God.
 

veteran

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One of the best ways to see Israel as a distinct people and nation is simply to look at the unfulfilled future events (prophecy) in the Old testament. There are lots of them , and it is the nation and people Israel in the Middle East. It is not anyone else. This is plain to see.

They are in unbelief , as far as the gospel is concerned , but they are still in the running for some main events as far as God is concerned.

One being some repercussions against the nations who want to eliminate Israel from the map. God will again use Israel to prove himself to the world.


All this mixing and blending and confusion stems from mistaken Christians who "spiritualized Israel" for almost 2000 years because the actual Nation of Israel was long forgotten.

Most of these errors were corrected since the re-gathering in 1948 , but there is still a stubborn group of folks who cling to the "old traditions of men"


It's you that's clinging to false traditions of men, because the Israel in the middleast today is only one part of Israel representing the "house of Judah" (Jews). God kept His promises to them, which is why they exist in the holy land as a nation again. But the rest of His promises went to the part of Israel that kept the Faith on The Saviour Jesus Christ, some believing Jews also among them.

So what happenned to the rest of the seed of Israel in 'your' doctrine? The ten tribes of Israel made up the majority of the seed of Israel.

God's Word has a whole lot more to say about the other part of Israel, the "house of Israel", the stick of Joseph in the hand of Ephraim per Ezekiel 37.

Men's traditions are like being tied to a stake with a rope. It limits God's Truth within all His Word.

 

Vengle53

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Gentleman:

In a little while I will post a line by line breakdown of Romans chapter eleven.

Thank you for the advice concerning hanging onto fallacies, veteran. I strongly agree with you that such is to be vigorously avoided. If there is anything I do know, it is that we are our own worst enemies when it comes to understanding anything, and especially the Word of God.

I have prayed much about that very thing over the last few decades. I hold that it be better I be found a liar than that I should unknowingly remain a liar. And with the help of the Holy Spirit, by a process of constantly challenging myself as though I am challenging a liar, I have been blessed to see.

But you have no way to know that yet. Therefore I ask only that you humbly consider what I will proceed to present here.

Your pointing this out is valuable, veteran, as it is something we all need to seriously consider.

Thank you, veteran.
 

dan p

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Gentleman:

In a little while I will post a line by line breakdown of Romans chapter eleven.

Thank you for the advice concerning hanging onto fallacies, veteran. I strongly agree with you that such is to be vigorously avoided. If there is anything I do know, it is that we are our own worst enemies when it comes to understanding anything, and especially the Word of God.

I have prayed much about that very thing over the last few decades. I hold that it be better I be found a liar than that I should unknowingly remain a liar. And with the help of the Holy Spirit, by a process of constantly challenging myself as though I am challenging a liar, I have been blessed to see.

But you have no way to know that yet. Therefore I ask only that you humbly consider what I will proceed to present here.

Your pointing this out is valuable, veteran, as it is something we all need to seriously consider.

Thank you, veteran.



Hi Walking in Grace , and am looking forward on your interpretation of Rom 11 , as most of Paul's writing are hard for most to understand as 2 peter 3 says , dan p
 

Vengle53

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Before I post the break down of Romans chapter 11 i would like for you to consider this bit of background:

Veteran said: “What Apostle Paul was correcting among those Gentiles was how they were puffed up in thinking ONLY THEY were saved, and that God had cast away the seed of Israel. Paul shows differently in that Romans 11 chapter, and even warned those Gentiles to not be so conceited lest they also be cut off."

My reply: That is correct veteran, and along with this we do not want to miss that Paul’s reason for being so concerned about this is that the presentation of God’s merciful grace to Paul’s natural Jewish relatives was dependent upon the Gentiles preaching work toward them. The attitude many of the Gentiles were manifesting was affecting the depth and zeal in which they sought to impart the message of Christ to the Jews for the sake of their salvation. This is why Paul had elaborated the importance of the preaching work in chapter 10, showing how that preaching work is God’s grace delivered to save Jew and Gentile alike. I want to be sure you see that we are not yet waiting for the vail of blindness to be lifted off of Israel as though it is yet to the future, but it has been happening for a remnant of them all along in each generation since the Church began to preach the message of Christ.

Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to whom? To everyone that does what? To everyone that believes. (Romans 10:4)

And everyone that believes will do what, whether Jew or Gentile? Romans 10:9-13 “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Israel of the flesh did not believe. If you incorrectly read some passages of scripture you could wrongly conclude that their not believing was God’s doing. That would be the fallacy. What you would be missing is that it was not yet God’s time for grace to begin being preached, and so he merely permitted them to go the way of their own stubborn unwillingness to see or to hear, and did not at that time send help to them. But that help begin being sent through the preaching work of the Gentiles. Romans 10:19 “But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.”

Do you not see that the preaching work of the Gentiles toward the Jews is how God is removing the vail from off of a remnant (a small portion) of the fleshly Israel’s hearts? Romans 10:14-15 “How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?” And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!”

We are not yet waiting for that vail to be lifted as some erroneously teach. It has been being lifted for a remnant all along. And those that would cause people to look for the entirety of that fleshly nation to repent are deceiving men so that these men have their eyes fixed below where the devil can use the flesh to deceive them further.

All flesh is condemned to death. The flesh of Israel is no different. It is Adam's condemned flesh. All of its works are works of its flesh and will be disposed of with its flesh. Only the regenerated nation that has been and is currently taking place in Christ will remain. The Law killed that fleshly nation of Israel. God is not the God of the dead but of the living. He is not any longer working with that dead nation. There is no life outside of Christ and God is and has therefore been calling to a remnant out of that dead nation to come to life in Christ, a remnant coresponding to the seven thousand faithful in Isaiah's prophetical account of Elijah's flight into the wilderness.

Nothing in Romans chapter 11 when correctly understood indicates the whole fleshly nation is to be saved, anymore than any other entire fleshly nation will be saved. Teaching it as so is not part of Christ's teachings but is part of the operation of error 2 Thessalonians chapter two speaks concerning.

This is therefore a serious matter that must be correctly understood.
 

dan p

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Walking in Grace said:

Hi Walking in Grace , and I will rather wait till you have posted . I will hold to a different interpretation as most Dispensationalist hold to a more traditional belief that being , that Gentiles are bring GRAFTED into Israel today , which is and ILLUSION and even my own Pastor hold that view , and when I ask him to prove that position , he can not , so much for holding a view you can not PROVE , BEST TO YOU AND WILL BE WAITING , DAN P
 

Vengle53

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I will point out first that it is by no means my own idea to omit the added word “them” from Romans 11:32.



Bibles older than the KJV do this, for example the Douay – Rheims (First Published by the English College at Douay A.D. 1609 & 1610 and THE NEW TESTAMENT First Published by the English College at Rheims A.D. 1582) reads, Romans 11:32 “For God hath concluded all in unbelief, that he may have mercy on all.”



Geneva Bible (1560): Romans 11:32 “For God hath shut up all in unbelief, that he might have mercy on all.”



Some other Bibles that omit the word they from Romans 11:32 are as follows:



Weymouth New Testament (1903): Romans 11:32 “For God has locked up all in the prison of unbelief, that upon all alike He may have mercy.”



Darby’s version (1890): Romans 11:32 “For God hath shut up together all in unbelief, in order that he might shew mercy to all.”



American Standard Version (1901): Romans 11:32 “For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.”



World English Bible (The World English Bible is a Modern English update of the American Standard Version of 1901): Romans 11:32 “For God has shut up all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all.”



Paul is not saying in verse 32 that the Jews alone were shut up in “apeitheia” [from apeithes -- meaning unpersuadable, i.e. contumacious or disobedience]. He is telling the Gentiles that their own fleshly relatives as well as the Jews are in that same situation and therefore one not any better than the other. This point thus was well suited to his addressing the high-mindedness of these Gentile Christians.



Yes indeed: Romans 11:33-36 “O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.” Paul’s Gentile audience had every reason to agree with this as they could readily see in it that God brings the pride of men low, showing such pride up as worthless, even for the Jews. Certainly, then, if they failed to humble themselves he would also humble them.



Romans 11:1 “I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.”

The word here translated “cast off” carries with it a sense of wholeness as in the case of every individual of the nation, and thus if true would not allow for a remnant to be saved out of fleshly Israel as was being done among Gentile nations. Paul thus was able to point to himself as proof that such an idea could not be true.



Romans 11:2-4 “God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel: 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

Even at times when God allowed the people of Israel to be punished for their disobedience, there was yet a remnant of faithful. Many of these faithful had become dispersed among the Gentile nations. Paul is thus telling the Gentiles that these faithful are there and must be searched out because they will be willing to listen. They are the “Lost Sheep of the House of Israel”. And therefore despite the vicious persecution by so many Jews who lived among the Gentiles, these “Lost Sheep” needed the Good Shepherd to rescue them. And the Good Shepherd now does this through his Body, of which these Gentiles are a part.

Bear in mind that (Luke 16:16) “The law and the prophets were until John: from that time the gospel of the kingdom of God is preached, and every man entereth violently into it.” These faithful no longer would have prophets coming to them as before to call them back together. Now this would be done through the preaching work of the Body of Christ. The Gentiles to whom Paul was talking were a part of that body and as such it was their responsibility to go forth in the preaching work of Christ, carrying the Word of God’s grace in Jesus, to gather all the faithful, not of the Gentiles only, but certainly also of those who God first knew.

We have a good example of how it works in the captivity to Babylon. We can see in that example how a faithful remnant is refined and conditioned to repentance as if by fire before God sends the liberator to them. Cyrus the Persian was the bird called from out of the surmising at that time to deliver that remnant. But there in the first century as is also true now, that liberator is Christ Jesus, working through the church of his body of believers, preaching the word of the dispensation of grace.



And so it is: Romans 11:5-6 “Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.”

God’s grace elected and yet today elects a precious few from among the Jews, even as from among the Gentiles. These sheep-like ones, willing and ready to hear the call of their master, are searched out to come into his fold where they receive rest from their burdens and refreshment for their souls.



It is at this point where it becomes really confusing for many. As we read on, many get their ideas that all in the stupor eventually have their eyes opened and come to repentance. But this is simply not the case. Romans 9:21-22 “Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:”

Many of these remain to destruction, today the same as then: Romans 9:23-24 “that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory, 24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?”

Here is the regenerated Israel of God, and it is not the fleshly Israel: Romans 9:25-27 “As he saith also in Hosea, I will call that my people, which was not my people; And her beloved, that was not beloved. 26 And it shall be, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, There shall they be called sons of the living God. 27 And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved:” (Ephesians chapter two details this new nation, as also Galatians chapters 3 and 4; and 1 Peter chapter two.)

Christ was the seed that was left. There is no seed outside of Christ. Romans 9:28-29 “for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth, finishing it and cutting it short. 29 And, as Isaiah hath said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, We had become as Sodom, and had been made like unto Gomorrah.

Romans 9:33 “even as it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence: And he that believeth on him shall not be put to shame.”



Due to length I will continue this later.
 

dan p

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I will point out first that it is by no means my own idea to omit the added word “them” from Romans 11:32.

Hi Walking in Grace , and I have a friend who was taught how to translate the bible and he did a word for word translation .

verse 32 , But being judged by THE Lord , we are being discipled in order that we should not be condemned with the world .

Brock left the word " them " out also .

The word " THE " was taken fro the Western Greek Text .and was not in the Texus Receptus , and goes to show that you can not trust translation . dan p
 

tomwebster

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I will point out first that it is by no means my own idea to omit the added word “them” from Romans 11:32.

Hi Walking in Grace , and I have a friend who was taught how to translate the bible and he did a word for word translation .

verse 32 , But being judged by THE Lord , we are being discipled in order that we should not be condemned with the world .

Brock left the word " them " out also .

The word " THE " was taken fro the Western Greek Text .and was not in the Texus Receptus , and goes to show that you can not trust translation . dan p


Accept for Brock's I guess.
 

Vengle53

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“How much more their fullness?”
The most common error in interpretation of this subject involves the above phrase found at Romans 11:12. Paul is frequently interpreted as saying that the full number of fleshly Israel is to be saved, however, that idea is false. And it is not really too difficult to see through if one is humble and truly desires to see.

Romans 11:7-8 “What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.”

Notice the phrase at the end of verse eight, “unto this day”. The significance of this is that Paul is not speaking of just during that time of the beginning of the church. Paul is telling us that all along, from Israel’s beginning and during any of Israel’s generations, “unto this day” only a remnant of elect ones was ever saved and the rest were let go their stubborn disobedient way to pay the price with the loss of their life. But that remnant from out of all generations meant and still means “riches to this world” (Ro 11:12). Paul is thus encouraging the Gentiles to reason, “Why then should it be different now all of the sudden? Surely there are yet more elect ones among those “vessels of wrath fitted to destruction” (Ro 9:22)”. Paul was seeking to promote the Gentile elects to fire up their zeal for preaching among the Jews despite the persecution and hardships most Jews heaped upon them by getting them to appreciate the treasure that must yet be there.

We learned in chapter 9:22 that most Jews, due to their wicked pride, were as vessels of wrath fit for destruction comparable even to Pharaoh in his pride (Ro 9:16-18). Paul’s words at Romans 11:12 relate to his words in verse 7. The fullness of those elected ones being brought out from among the natural Jews that were “vessels of wrath fitted to destruction” is what means “riches to the world”, as Paul refers to in Romans 11:12.

Romans 11:12 “Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?” That is to say, "How much more the fullness of those yet among those vessel's of wrath who might actually prove to be elect sheeplike ones." that fullness refers not to the fleshly nation. but to the fullness of the sheeplike ones called to come out of that nation and into Christ.

We do not know who these lost sheep elected ones are, whether these ones be in the fleshly Israel or scattered among the nations. Until these ones receive the word of the dispensation of Christ through the preaching by us in the Body of Christ and take it into their hearts, only God knows who they are. Therefore Paul’s counsel is as important to us today as it was to those Gentiles he was speaking to there in Rome.

Is it Anti-Semitism to teach this? Not at all, for the scripture teaches that all men from any nation that harden their hearts to Christ demonstrate themselves to be “vessels of wrath fitted to destruction”. Yet we are counseled to try all the more to win as many as possible through loving even those who posture themselves toward us as enemies. We learn from 1 Corinthians 7:16 that we do not even know if we might save an unbelieving husband or wife by our example. Certainly the same holds true toward individuals of this world. And we do know that 1 Corinthians 1:21 “… after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.”

Yet in the end we know that it will be: Psalms 76:9 “When God arose to judgment, to save all the meek of the earth. Selah.”
 

Vengle53

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Don't consider Paul's words there in Romans 11 about "all Israel" lightly, nor the Scripture around it that goes with what Paul said there...


Rom 11:25-29
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(KJV)


Paul reveals that many of unbelieving seed of Israel refuse Christ because of blindness put upon them (see Isaiah 28-29). That's what Paul was covering back at Rom.11:8. Our Heavenly Father did that blindness upon them.

And He did that so His Savlation would go to the Gentiles also.

Paul also put a condition time for their blindness when he said, "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

Not only that, but Paul also points to how they are STILL God's election and beloved, as God's calling is without repentance.

So who are we to say that only the limited number of Israelites WE see today coming to Christ are only those Paul declared there?

There's many OT Scriptures written of God's Promise to turn the seed of Israel back to Him in final.


Yes, there are a couple of word interpretations I yet need to address.

But Paul never entertained the thought you are pointing to here: Romans 11:14 "If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them."

So it is plain to see that Paul's mindset was to save as many as might possibly be saved ("might save some of them"), thus that is what he means by their fullness which means riches to the world.

We must be careful not to negate part of what Paul says in favor of a particular interpretation.

The next logical question is, "How does the fullness of those Jews that "might" possibly yet be saved mean "riches to the world"?

It is important that we understand that also as it further clarifies the entire picture.

As for the promises said earlier to be yet unfulfilled, it only appears that way to those that cannot see how those promises are being fulfilled in Christ. There is much to talk about yet.

You are failing to also factor in this thought:
Romans 9:6-8 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

We must accept that what Paul there said is true of what we see in the flesh and then proceed from there to learn what an Israelite of God really is.
 

Vengle53

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Sorry, the editor prevented me from continuing so I am forced to finish my comment in this seperate post.

Yes, there are a couple of word interpretations I yet need to address.
But Paul never entertained the thought you are pointing to here: Romans 11:14 "If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and
might save some of them."

So it is plain to see that Paul's mindset was to save as many as might possibly be saved ("might save some of them"), thus that is what he means by their fullness which means riches to the world.
We must be careful not to negate part of what Paul says in favor of a particular interpretation.
The next logical question is, "How does the fullness of those Jews that
"might" possibly yet be saved mean "riches to the world"?

It is important that we understand that also as it further clarifies the entire picture.
As for the promises said earlier to be yet unfulfilled, it only appears that way to those that cannot see how those promises are being fulfilled in Christ. There is much to talk about yet.
You are failing to also factor in this thought:
Romans 9:6-8 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
We must accept that what Paul there said is true of what we see in the flesh and then proceed from there to learn what an Israelite of God really is.
As I pointed out earlier, when Paul quoted the prophecy which says, Romans 9:29 "And as Esaias said before, Except the
Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.", this seed that is left is Jesus Christ, himself Lord of the Saboath.

Paul did not lie when he told us that the Old Law Killed All that were subject to it, and in fact condemned and killed the whole world as we learn at Romans 3:19. Jesus was the only seed left by that Old Law. Therefore it can only be in Jesus that life and recognotion can become available to any of us, Jew or Gentile. There was no other seed left alive.
So then we become stuck just as those Jews looking yet at the flesh to find hope. But Paul said, 2 Corinthians 5:14-
16 "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more."

We are mistaken when we imagine we read in the scripture that God is in any way going to use the flesh and the fleshly institutions such as is the Israel in the Mid East.
What God is using and is going to use is an entirely new creation, and I believe that if you will think about it you already know that.
Now we need to consentrate more on understanding what that new creation is. "We thus judge, that if one died, then all were dead". That one seed which was left Israel, died to the flesh and was risen in spirit. If we do not want to proceed on to pay the ultimate penalty of that Old Law (our eventual literal complete loss of life), then we must embrace the death of our flesh now along with that one seed that we may also rise with him to newness of life. We look to nothing in this flesh, for it is dead and gone. Our time left in this flesh is only the process of its literal death. But spiritual we are set free from enslavement to it while we remain so that we might make full use of this time to participating with Christ in saving others.