Why Jews were Made, not Born

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Dave L

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If you trace Israel from its roots, it is easy to see. Abraham circumcised his 300+ soldiers, none of whom were related to him. At the time, Ishmael was his only blood relative. But all became his covenant seed through circumcision. They called them Hebrews at this point.

God told Abraham that His seed (Christ, according to Paul) would come through Isaac, Abraham’s second son. In time a royal family consisting of twelve tribes developed in Isaac, much like the royal family in the UK. But it was always a mixed multitude based on circumcision. If one of the royal family, or any non-relative was not circumcised, they remained a gentile and were cut off.

When Israel left Egypt in the exodus, they were a mixed multitude of royal family and Israeli citizens. In Esther's day, many Babylonians became Jews when the Jews retaliated against Haman with overwhelming success.

So it was always circumcision and community that made one a Jew (common usage) or a physical member of Israel.

When Jesus arrived, God no longer needed the physical unbelieving nation to preserve the true seed. Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross, ending the Abrahamic merger of unbelievers with believers, or the physical church state. Only believers, the church, remained as biblical Israel under Christ.

Those Jews who rejected Christ, exist today because of their hatred of him. The believing Jews joined him and remained Israel. The Pharisees take credit for today's Judaism. These are similar to Mormons or any other false religion that dominates a region. In this case the Middle East.
 

Jay Ross

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@Dave L, Your explanation of the meaning of the word Hebrew(s) seems to suggest that the name Hebrews came into existence after Abraham circumcised all of his household. However, it is my understanding that the name Hebrew came into existence to describe the descendants of Eber, (Heber) and that this can be confirmed from Scripture.

We find the word Hebrew first used here by Joseph: -

Genesis_40:12-15: - 12 And Joseph said to him, "This is the interpretation of it: The three branches are three days. 13 Now within three days Pharaoh will lift up your head and restore you to your place, and you will put Pharaoh's cup in his hand according to the former manner, when you were his butler. 14 But remember me when it is well with you, and please show kindness to me; make mention of me to Pharaoh, and get me out of this house. 15 For indeed I was stolen away from the land of the Hebrews; and also I have done nothing here that they should put me into the dungeon."​

And also the fact that the Hebrews were an abomination to the Egyptians.

Genesis_43:32: - "So they set him a place by himself, and them by themselves, and the Egyptians who ate with him by themselves; because the Egyptians could not eat food with the Hebrews, for that is an abomination to the Egyptians."
This raises a question as to why the Hebrews were an abomination to the Egyptians.

The reason for Hebrews being and abomination to the Egyptians can be traced back to this incident in Genesis 12: -

Genesis_12:10-20: - 10 Now there was a famine in the land, and Abram went down to Egypt to dwell there, for the famine was severe in the land. 11 And it came to pass, when he was close to entering Egypt, that he said to Sarai his wife, "Indeed I know that you are a woman of beautiful countenance. 12 Therefore it will happen, when the Egyptians see you, that they will say, 'This is his wife'; and they will kill me, but they will let you live. 13 Please say you are my sister, that it may be well with me for your sake, and that I may live because of you."

14 So it was, when Abram came into Egypt, that the Egyptians saw the woman, that she was very beautiful. 15 The princes of Pharaoh also saw her and commended her to Pharaoh. And the woman was taken to Pharaoh's house. 16 He treated Abram well for her sake. He had sheep, oxen, male donkeys, male and female servants, female donkeys, and camels.

17 But the Lord plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai, Abram's wife. 18 And Pharaoh called Abram and said, "What is this you have done to me? Why did you not tell me that she was your wife? 19 Why did you say, 'She is my sister'? I might have taken her as my wife. Now therefore, here is your wife; take her and go your way." 20 So Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him; and they sent him away, with his wife and all that he had.
So what did the Pharaoh command his men about Abraham? Did he tell them that they were to have nothing more to do with Hebrews, because Abraham was a descendant of Eber and the descendants of Eber (Heber) were know as Hebrews. The wrong that Abraham did to the Pharaoh concerning Sarah because of his lie of omission caused God's wrath to come against all of the Egyptians and in particular the Pharaoh the Pharaoh realised this and why God had come against them all after the arrival of Abraham in Egypt.

This incident occurred some 23 years or so before Abraham circumcised himself and all of the male servants in his household.

We can only but guess as to why God allowed the Hebrews to become an abomination to the Egyptians some 215 years before Jacob took his whole household down to Egypt because of the famine.

The most likely explanation is that all of the descendants of Eber were know as Hebrews.

To separate the descendants of Jacob from the Hebrews, God renamed Jacob, Israel, while he was returning to see his father Isaac from Haran.

When Jacob went down to Egypt at the Pharaoh's invitation, Joseph advised Jacob and all his house hold in the following manner: -

Genesis_46:31-34: - 31 Then Joseph said to his brothers and to his father's household, "I will go up and tell Pharaoh, and say to him, 'My brothers and those of my father's house, who were in the land of Canaan, have come to me. 32 And the men are shepherds, for their occupation has been to feed livestock; and they have brought their flocks, their herds, and all that they have.' 33 So it shall be, when Pharaoh calls you and says, 'What is your occupation?' 34 that you shall say, 'Your servants' occupation has been with livestock from our youth even till now, both we and also our fathers,' that you may dwell in the land of Goshen; for every shepherd is an abomination to the Egyptians."​

This is another link to Abraham's journey down to Egypt early after he had left Haran to go down to the land of Canaan. He was a predominately a keeper of sheep, i.e. a shepherd.

It is for this reason that I believe that the term Hebrews is used to describe anyof the descendants of Eber and came into play before the dispersion of the nations after the work on the Tower of Babel, stopped.

Shalom
 
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Enoch111

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If you trace Israel from its roots, it is easy to see.
We need to be careful that we understand Israel and the Jews according to the Word of God. Some of what you have said is valid, but the title of this thread is not valid: "Why Jews were Made, not Born".

1. It was critical that the lineage of Christ -- Jesus of Nazareth -- be traceable all the way back to Abraham through Solomon, David, Judah, Jacob ,and Isaac, therefore we have His genealogies. That already establishes that Jews were BORN within the twelve tribes of Israel, not simply "made".

2. Abraham was not a Jew but a Hebrew, and he traced his lineage back to Shem and Noah through Eber (hence Hebrew). The term "Jew" (Heb Yehudi, from the kingdom of Judah) came into existence during and after the Babylonian captivity. After Solomon, the kingdom of Israel was split into two kingdoms -- Judah (having the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, along with the Levites) and Israel (the other ten tribes). Since only those from the Babylonian captivity returned to Judea to rebuild Jerusalem and the temple, we find that in the NT those living in Israel were called "Jews". But "Israel" and "Jews" are also used interchangeably.

3. King Messiah Jesus of Nazareth came to the Jews as their Messiah and Savior, was rejected (by and large) by His nation, and crucified. However, His instructions to the apostles were to preach the Gospel successively in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and then into the uttermost parts of the earth. Which means that God did not reject Israel even though Israel rejected Jesus. Also, when Paul went on his missionary journeys, he first preached in all the synagogues, and then went to the Gentiles.

4. Believing Israel is called "the good olive tree" whereas believing Gentiles are called "the wild olive tree", and the image of the Church is that the wild branches were grafted into the good olive tree. Thus the Church was called "the Israel of God" spiritually, with all redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body.

5. At the same time, Israel (the unbelieving Jews) were judicially blinded until the total number of Gentiles would be gathered into the Church. Following this God would resume His dealings with Israel directly.

6. It is critical to understand that when we read about "the seed" of Abraham, that term is applied in three ways, depending on the context: (1) Christ is the seed of Abraham, meaning the descendant of Abraham, (2) all believers are the seed of Abraham, meaning that they have exercised saving faith as did Abraham, and thus righteousness has been imputed to them, and (3) the twelve tribes of Israel when it is redeemed and restored by Christ after His second coming are all called "the seed" of Abraham.

7. You (and many others) have been taught Replacement Theology, which says that the Church has replaced Israel, and that the kingdom of Israel under Christ is not relevant. However, according to Scripture, God has an eternal plan and purpose for the Church (whose eternal home is the New Jerusalem) as well as an eternal plan and purpose for redeemed and restored Israel on earth, during and after the Millennium.

So, in brief, the twelve tribes will indeed be established on earth in the future, while the Church will be established in the New Jerusalem for eternity. Which means that your thesis is incorrect. Study the prophecy of Ezekiel for starters.
 
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Dave L

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We need to be careful that we understand Israel and the Jews according to the Word of God. Some of what you have said is valid, but the title of this thread is not valid: "Why Jews were Made, not Born".

1. It was critical that the lineage of Christ -- Jesus of Nazareth -- be traceable all the way back to Abraham through Solomon, David, Judah, Jacob ,and Isaac, therefore we have His genealogies. That already establishes that Jews were BORN within the twelve tribes of Israel, not simply "made".

2. Abraham was not a Jew but a Hebrew, and he traced his lineage back to Shem and Noah through Eber (hence Hebrew). The term "Jew" (Heb Yehudi, from the kingdom of Judah) came into existence during and after the Babylonian captivity. After Solomon, the kingdom of Israel was split into two kingdoms -- Judah (having the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, along with the Levites) and Israel (the other ten tribes). Since only those from the Babylonian captivity returned to Judea to rebuild Jerusalem and the temple, we find that in the NT those living in Israel were called "Jews". But "Israel" and "Jews" are also used interchangeably.

3. King Messiah Jesus of Nazareth came to the Jews as their Messiah and Savior, was rejected (by and large) by His nation, and crucified. However, His instructions to the apostles were to preach the Gospel successively in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and then into the uttermost parts of the earth. Which means that God did not reject Israel even though Israel rejected Jesus. Also, when Paul went on his missionary journeys, he first preached in all the synagogues, and then went to the Gentiles.

4. Believing Israel is called "the good olive tree" whereas believing Gentiles are called "the wild olive tree", and the image of the Church is that the wild branches were grafted into the good olive tree. Thus the Church was called "the Israel of God" spiritually, with all redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body.

5. At the same time, Israel (the unbelieving Jews) were judicially blinded until the total number of Gentiles would be gathered into the Church. Following this God would resume His dealings with Israel directly.

6. It is critical to understand that when we read about "the seed" of Abraham, that term is applied in three ways, depending on the context: (1) Christ is the seed of Abraham, meaning the descendant of Abraham, (2) all believers are the seed of Abraham, meaning that they have exercised saving faith as did Abraham, and thus righteousness has been imputed to them, and (3) the twelve tribes of Israel when it is redeemed and restored by Christ after His second coming are all called "the seed" of Abraham.

7. You (and many others) have been taught Replacement Theology, which says that the Church has replaced Israel, and that the kingdom of Israel under Christ is not relevant. However, according to Scripture, God has an eternal plan and purpose for the Church (whose eternal home is the New Jerusalem) as well as an eternal plan and purpose for redeemed and restored Israel on earth, during and after the Millennium.

So, in brief, the twelve tribes will indeed be established on earth in the future, while the Church will be established in the New Jerusalem for eternity. Which means that your thesis is incorrect. Study the prophecy of Ezekiel for starters.
There is no such thing as Replacement Theology. In Romans 11 God removed the unbelievers (in Christ) from Israel. Israel continued believers only, with believing gentiles grafted into the vacuum left by the broken off unbelievers. If any of those accept Christ, God will graft them back in.

If faith reunites the broken off branches to Christ in Romans 11, Jesus IS Israel along with those who believe in him.
 

VictoryinJesus

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If you trace Israel from its roots, it is easy to see. Abraham circumcised his 300+ soldiers, none of whom were related to him. At the time, Ishmael was his only blood relative. But all became his covenant seed through circumcision. They called them Hebrews at this point.

God told Abraham that His seed (Christ, according to Paul) would come through Isaac, Abraham’s second son. In time a royal family consisting of twelve tribes developed in Isaac, much like the royal family in the UK. But it was always a mixed multitude based on circumcision. If one of the royal family, or any non-relative was not circumcised, they remained a gentile and were cut off.

When Israel left Egypt in the exodus, they were a mixed multitude of royal family and Israeli citizens. In Esther's day, many Babylonians became Jews when the Jews retaliated against Haman with overwhelming success.

So it was always circumcision and community that made one a Jew (common usage) or a physical member of Israel.

When Jesus arrived, God no longer needed the physical unbelieving nation to preserve the true seed. Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross, ending the Abrahamic merger of unbelievers with believers, or the physical church state. Only believers, the church, remained as biblical Israel under Christ.

Those Jews who rejected Christ, exist today because of their hatred of him. The believing Jews joined him and remained Israel. The Pharisees take credit for today's Judaism. These are similar to Mormons or any other false religion that dominates a region. In this case the Middle East.


About your title...do you mean the Jews of circumcision of the flesh were made. Those belonging to Christ are born?

You said: Jesus Christ is Israel.
It is very plain isn’t it. He IS Israel.
Love it:)
 

Stranger

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There is no such thing as Replacement Theology. In Romans 11 God removed the unbelievers (in Christ) from Israel. Israel continued believers only, with believing gentiles grafted into the vacuum left by the broken off unbelievers. If any of those accept Christ, God will graft them back in.

If faith reunites the broken off branches to Christ in Romans 11, Jesus IS Israel along with those who believe in him.

There is no such thing as replacement theology, but you are doing the same thing it does. You are calling the Church Israel. That is no different than those who call the Church 'spiritual Israel'. You are nothing new. Just reformed the words some.

Stranger
 
D

Dave L

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There is no such thing as replacement theology, but you are doing the same thing it does. You are calling the Church Israel. That is no different than those who call the Church 'spiritual Israel'. You are nothing new. Just reformed the words some.

Stranger
The church always existed in Israel, called the Congregation of the Lord over 300 times in the OT. Congregation = Church. God removed the unbelievers from the Congregation (Israel) and added believing gentiles in their place.
 
D

Dave L

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About your title...do you mean the Jews of circumcision of the flesh were made. Those belonging to Christ are born?

You said: Jesus Christ is Israel.
It is very plain isn’t it. He IS Israel.
Love it:)
Well sort of. The born again believers, Abel, Job, Melchizedek, and others existed for all time. But they became spiritual Israel surrounded by unbelieving physical Israel through the rite of circumcision. When Jesus abolished circumcision, he broke off the unbelievers, leaving only spiritual Israel (the Church/Congregation of the Lord) intact. It is to this Israel God attaches believing gentiles and repentant Jews who accept Christ. There is only one Israel in Christ.
 

VictoryinJesus

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There is no such thing as replacement theology, but you are doing the same thing it does. You are calling the Church Israel. That is no different than those who call the Church 'spiritual Israel'. You are nothing new. Just reformed the words some.

Stranger

I'm not sure I understand this replacement theology? Did God not make desolate all man's work to save himself? Making one way and one way only into the kingdom of God and that way being Christ. Period. Why would God go backwards> That which is natural was first, that which is Spiritual second. The first and the Last. That which is Last shall be First in the kingdom of God.

Consider things which are made: Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Hebrews 11:3
[3] Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Hebrews 12:27
[27] And this word , Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. --which is Christ.

Same as: Matthew 15:13-14
[13] But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. [14] Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
 

Enoch111

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There is no such thing as Replacement Theology. In Romans 11 God removed the unbelievers (in Christ) from Israel.
Romans 11 says quite the opposite. However, people will believe whatever they want to believe, no matter what the Bible says. These are the days of spiritual confusion.
 

Episkopos

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There is no such thing as replacement theology, but you are doing the same thing it does. You are calling the Church Israel. That is no different than those who call the Church 'spiritual Israel'. You are nothing new. Just reformed the words some.

Stranger


The charge of replacement theology is from Jews who want their flesh to count for something. But we know the flesh profits nothing.

But Israel has always been, in God's mind, the church/congregation from all nations. Just not in the mind of people who have something to lose.
 

Episkopos

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Romans 11 says quite the opposite. However, people will believe whatever they want to believe, no matter what the Bible says. These are the days of spiritual confusion.


That God put unbelievers into the Bride?
 
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Dave L

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Romans 11 says quite the opposite. However, people will believe whatever they want to believe, no matter what the Bible says. These are the days of spiritual confusion.
If in Romans 11 the broken off are reattached to Israel through faith, then Jesus is Israel.
 

Episkopos

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If in Romans 11 the broken off are reattached to Israel through faith, then Jesus is Israel.


Actually Israel is the Bride of Christ. WE are Israel. The Israel of God. But in a way Jesus is also Israel. Since to be Israel means to overcome with God. And Jesus did that to make a way for us to do it.
 
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Dave L

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Actually Israel is the Bride of Christ. WE are Israel. The Israel of God. But in a way Jesus is also Israel. Since to be Israel means to overcome with God. And Jesus did that to make a way for us to do it.
Jesus is Israel

“When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.” (Hosea 11:1)

“And (Jesus) was there (in Egypt) until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.” (Matthew 2:15)
 

Episkopos

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Jesus is Israel

“When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.” (Hosea 11:1)

“And (Jesus) was there (in Egypt) until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.” (Matthew 2:15)


And this works for the Bride as well. Oneness. We are also called out of Egypt....the world as His Ecclesia.
 
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Stranger

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The church always existed in Israel, called the Congregation of the Lord over 300 times in the OT. Congregation = Church. God removed the unbelievers from the Congregation (Israel) and added believing gentiles in their place.

No, the Church did not always exist in Israel. The Church does not exist in Israel. That a congregation of believers existed in the Old Testament did not make them the Church. It did not make them the Body and Bride of Christ. The Church is the Body of Christ which could not have come into existence until (Acts 2).

No, Israel is not made up of believing Gentiles.

As I said, you are just trying to put a different saddle on the same horse.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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I'm not sure I understand this replacement theology? Did God not make desolate all man's work to save himself? Making one way and one way only into the kingdom of God and that way being Christ. Period. Why would God go backwards> That which is natural was first, that which is Spiritual second. The first and the Last. That which is Last shall be First in the kingdom of God.

Consider things which are made: Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Hebrews 11:3
[3] Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Hebrews 12:27
[27] And this word , Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. --which is Christ.

Same as: Matthew 15:13-14
[13] But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. [14] Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

The only way of salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ. Yes. But though that is the only way of salvation does not mean that all believers are placed in the same body of the believing. Israel is one body. The saints prior to Israel, from Adam to Moses, are another body. They are not part of Israel. The Chruch, from Pentacost to the Rapture, are another body. And the Tribulation saints are another body. All place faith in some way towards Jesus Christ. But they are different bodies of believers.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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The charge of replacement theology is from Jews who want their flesh to count for something. But we know the flesh profits nothing.

But Israel has always been, in God's mind, the church/congregation from all nations. Just not in the mind of people who have something to lose.

The Church has never been Israel in God's mind. Only in yours and others.

Stranger