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Featured Why John 6:37 is grossly misunderstood and misapplied

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Enoch111, Feb 3, 2019.

  1. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Those who believe in so-called *Unconditional Election* (from the five Points of Calvinism) interpret John 6:37 as though it means that God the Father chooses (predestines and elects) some for salvation (which would also mean that He elects some for damnation). But the context makes it clear that the meaning is THE EXACT OPPOSITE of what is assumed. The context of this verse is as below (in the KJV)

    37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Therefore we need to start with verse 40, and what it says is that (a) everyone is given the opportunity to see the Son and believe on Him (through the Gospel), (b) those who believe on Him will receive the gift of everlasting life, and (c) those who receive everlasting life will be resurrected and receive immortal, glorified bodies.

    Then we go to verse 39, which speaks of the eternal security of the believer, which means that those who are genuinely saved cannot lose their salvation, and will be raised again on *the Last Day* (which is not one 24 hour day).

    Then we go to verse 38, and see that Christ came to do the will of the Father, not His own will. But what was the will of the Father? For that we need to go to John 3:17, which tells us that the will of the Father was the salvation of THE WHOLE WORLD:
    For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. And this is the EXACT OPPOSITE of Unconditional Election.

    So now we come to verse 37, which tells us that God draws all men to Christ, but only those who believe are the ones who are given to Him, and these are the ones who will come to Him, and whom He will not cast out.

    Scripture also tells us that just as the Father draws men to Christ through the Gospel, the Son does the same, and so does the Holy Spirit. In other words the triune Godhead acts in concert with the Gospel to bring about the salvation of sinners. But only those who obey the Gospel, and respond with repentance and faith, will be saved and eternally secure, to be raised up on the *Last Day*.
     
  2. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    In order for a person to come to Jesus, he must be given to Him by the Father.

    This would indicate that if someone does not come to Jesus, it is because he was not given to Him.

    Jde 1:3, Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
    Jde 1:4, For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Your thoughts?
     
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  3. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

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    @Enoch111 , I would suggest you take a look at a few verses ahead, at verse 44. It may be a big clue into who initiates the decision process for salvation that a person must finally make on their own. It is either from the Father or a decision solely incurred by oneself.

    ‘Seeing’ Jesus as in John 6:40 means a person realized they have a need for the true savior and a new captain of their heart and life. A sinner cannot make a pure carnal decision to want a savior in their life. That would be impossible. He or she can read the gospel all their lives, and pray to God all their lives, and want to believe and say they believe, although their heart condition never changed. They never really repented also. There are many church folks in the pews today that fit this category. They think that they decided for Christ using their own free-will, and yet Jesus does not know them today. The heart change and righteousness comes from above, from heaven first, not from their evil and wicked heart.

    This is not a mental decision we make as in our lives every day. It is a spiritual decision through the mind and influenced by the power and grace of God. It is a very unique decision one makes in their life. Declining this invitation of eternal life by God, once he has opened our hearts is the kiss of death. I would say it would be virtually impossible to decline this grace of God for eternal life the first time, and then expect his spirt to return again to ask of us, do you want to know my Son and true salvation again. God know all spirits and hearts before they are born and his election for salvation is foreknown. Nothing surprises him.

    So, any decision purely made on our own merit or by using our carnal ‘free-will’ shall not make us genuine believers, ever. We cannot make this decision on our own steam, using our own will entirely without the influence of God.

    So, God our Father knows already who shall choose heaven and eternal life over death. It is unconditional from his vantage point. To us, and understandably, in the 3D-T continuum that we live in, it would seem a conditional election as humans believe they make the final decision for eternity because of their cherished and prideful so-called free-will, once the Father and his spirit tugs at our hearts. Only wicked hearts choose death, and God already know them all. Their prideful and wicked hearts will not change even under the influence of the grace of God.

    When God calls your heart with love, mercy and grace, listen to him and accept his good news of life. If you realized you had no need of a savior from your heart and mind then you are not ‘saved’ yet or never shall be.

    Blessings,

    APAK
     
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  4. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the thoughtful post here.

    Do you believe that God witnesses His Truth to all men?
    And do you believe a individual has the choice whether or not to accept that Truth?
     
  5. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    So you are suggesting we need the scripture backward until it sounds like what you like, rather than what it clearly says;

    All the Father gives to the Son shall come...every single one. If the father has not given them to the Son, they are not coming,vs 44:

    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    The only one who does not understand the passage is you evidently. The rest of us read it as written
     
  6. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    re #3...

    Why is there evil in the world; and why does God allow wars?

    My answer is that God has given us a free will either to love and obey Him or else to hate and disobey Him and do what will result in certain evils that we see in the world today.

    If we do not have a free will, then what is the answer to the question above?

    Is God responsible?

    He is Omnipotent and loving from my understanding of the Bible; how then does evil exist?

    Is it not because God chose the greater good of giving mankind a free moral agency, looking forward to what He would prepare for the righteous in the kingdom of heaven?

    Rom 8:20, For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
     
  7. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Why do you call it a pure carnal decision since the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation and the Holy Spirit is God Himself, who convicts and convinces sinners?

    For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Rom 1:16)

    JOHN 16
    7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter [THE HOLY SPIRIT] will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
    8 And when he is come, he will reprove [CONVICT AND CONVINCE] the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
    9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
    10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
    11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
     
  8. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    The total context is what it clearly says. Not one isolated verse to justify a false Gospel. And then we have all of John chapter 3 to back that up.
     
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  9. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    The context excuse does not get it done, Enoch. Calvinism rightly understood is the gospel in every aspect of it according to scripture.
    The whole Gospel of John is where we get the five points from, as well as the rest of the bibleo_Oo_Oo_O
     
  10. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

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    To the first question Jane, the answer is clearly yes. Now the real question associated with the first one, is: how is this truth witnessed to people? This then will become part of the backdrop for your second question.

    First, John (John 1:9) says that God has provided his truth to all men. God has revealed himself through the man, Jesus Christ and his saving work on the cross. This truth comes through the words of the gospel and its centerpiece is Jesus Christ as the light for mankind. Then there is truth of God’s existence and his handiwork in our presence. The miraculous wonders in the earth and in the skies. Then there is his truth in the parchments of inspired men of God. God says there is no excuse for at least some of his truth to be known.

    Now how is this truth realized and accepted or not? To a young person say under 12 years old, this truth comes to them through the wonders of nature and adults that tell them God created these wonders. Then when they hear of Jesus and how he changes hearts, they receive and accept this as their truth without even really acknowledging it as a decision they have made. There are many believers that come to God’s truth this way from an early age of reason and understanding. These hearts were already malleable, soft and accepting as innocent children.

    Now as one gets older without still knowing or accepting this truth for salvation, not just in the mind but also within the heart, the heart tends to become harder, more obstinate and selfish. Accepting God’s truth that causes a change in heart as this stage in life usually takes a life experience that causes great humility. Hardships through vices and bad habits – alcoholism, drugs, even severe smoking, over eating etc., is one road to eventual humility. Stealing, lying, cheating, lewdness, acts of the carnal body, feeling depressed is another avenue. Whatever way that works for the heart to be arrested, reexamine itself and become once more open to God’s truth is the goal.

    Even at this point of humility and openness to God’s truth, one can still reject it after understanding it and become lost forever. Their heart was not cultivated to accept the truth. If one accepts his truth for salvation, there is a miraculous change within that heart that cannot be reversed by any man, even him or herself in question. I believe that may be the contention or true argument you may want to run with as your follow up post. You might still believe a genuine conversion and its continuance is still dependent of a future human decision to continue as even from the initial decision to convert?

    This is an age-old argument has no biblical merit. It only has carnal mental merit from a selfish unconverted heart, as it cannot understand spiritual things of God and be in the spirit of God.

    So, God does not force anyone to convert, although he knows who shall beforehand. As I alluded to in my last post, this decision is not a purely carnal decision for those that accept his truth. It is only a purely carnal decision made by those that reject his truth. (@Enoch111 I want to answer our #7 post here), This thought might take some time to understand for most folks. As I said before, it is not an ever day carnal decision we make all the time for eternal security and eternal life; God has to be involved and a major influence in it directly.

    God also knows all the many fakers that speak the words of converted ones and imitate the things of them, and yet cannot walk and live it with their selfish sinful and unconverted hearts. The parables of the corn/wheat and the tares and the harvest come to mind here.

    Bless you,

    APAK
     
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  11. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    Another very well thought out and written post. Thank you for your thoroughness and willing to address questions.

    I highlighted this part of your post because it is my biggest focus-- that a person has the free will to accept Christ's gift, or is it forced. Your answer here seems to very much acknowledge free will and that Christ dies for all men (aka no Limited Atonement). Am I understanding your views correctly?

    A few other statements--
    -Yes, God knows what a person's choice will be. My question is not focused on the foreknowledge of God (cause that's a given fact), but on whether or not the person has a choice.
    - Yes, no one is going to come to God without God's help- that's another given fact. But is that help offered to everyone and each individual freely chooses whether or not to accept it?
     
  12. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

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    You copy me correctly. The faith to believe truth is given as a gift to make the right decision for Christ..

    Mobile right now..until later

    Bless you

    APAK
     
  13. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Why is there evil in the world; and why does God allow wars?

    My answer is that God has given us a free will either to love and obey Him or else to hate and disobey Him and do what will result in certain evils that we see in the world today.

    If we do not have a free will, then what is the answer to the question above?

    Is God responsible?

    He is Omnipotent and loving from my understanding of the Bible; how then does evil exist?

    Is it not because God chose the greater good of giving mankind a free moral agency, looking forward to what He would prepare for the righteous in the kingdom of heaven?

    Rom 8:20, For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
     
  14. Jun2u

    Jun2u Well-Known Member

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    Time and again, I dare say most people who posts do not do a thorough Bible study on the subject they wish to discuss. This thread is a case in point

    “NO ONE CAN BE SAVED UNLESS THE FATHER DRAW HIM” is the fundamental principle that Scripture teaches! John 6:44.

    The words in parenthesis above is a false statement!!! Nowhere in Scripture will anyone find that God elected and predestined some to damnation. The unsaved are damned because they are sinners. “The wages of sin is death.”

    When did this drawing occur?:

    1) God named, elected, and predestined them to salvation before the foundation of the world, Matthew 1:21; and Revelation 13:8.
    2) Jesus fulfilled this salvation plan of the Father as the sacrificial Lamb who takes away the sins of the world.
    3) The Holy Spirit indwells the saved person by sealing his salvation eternally.

    The unsaved are damned because they rather be in darkness than in the light.

    Romans 3:10-11 says it all:

    10) “IT is written, There is none righteous, no. not one:
    11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

    If there is no such person as God declares above, who then can be saved?

    To God Be The Glory
     
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  15. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    In order for a person to come to Jesus, he must be given to Him by the Father.

    This would indicate that if someone does not come to Jesus, it is because he was not given to Him.

    Jde 1:3, Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
    Jde 1:4, For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Your thoughts?
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
  16. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    The Sin and Doom of Ungodly People

    3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

    Good old KJV strikes again.

    It does not say ordained to condemnation, it it says their condemnation was written about.

    You trying to spin this into Calvinistic predestination of some to heaven and some to hell. But it does not say that or hint that.

    He is talking about false teachers, prophets and the like coming among them in spreading their immorality.

    Just like within the seven churches of Revelation there is condemnation for those who tolerate and teach in defiance of God.
     
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  17. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    APAK,

    [First, John (John 1:9) says that God has provided his truth to all men. ]
    This is just not so as you have posted.it. Multitudes have lived and died without hearing the gospel.

    [God has revealed himself through the man, Jesus Christ and his saving work on the cross. This truth comes through the words of the gospel and its centerpiece is Jesus Christ as the light for mankind.]

    God has revealed Himself through special revelation in scripture. Not all men have seen or heard scripture.

    [Then there is truth of God’s existence and his handiwork in our presence. The miraculous wonders in the earth and in the skies.]

    Yes , God has revealed Himself that he exists in creation, but that is not enough to get men saved as they turned from this revelation to idols Romans 1

    [Now how is this truth realized and accepted or not? To a young person say under 12 years old, this truth comes to them through the wonders of nature and adults that tell them God created these wonders. Then when they hear of Jesus and how he changes hearts, they receive and accept this as their truth without even really acknowledging it as a decision they have made. There are many believers that come to God’s truth this way from an early age of reason and understanding. These hearts were already malleable, soft and accepting as innocent children.]

    This is completely unscriptural. Children are not innocent but sinners In Adam Rom 3:23...no one "receives and accepts anything about Jesus of their own will;
    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


    [Now as one gets older without still knowing or accepting this truth for salvation, not just in the mind but also within the heart, the heart tends to become harder, more obstinate and selfish. Accepting God’s truth that causes a change in heart as this stage in life usually takes a life experience that causes great humility.]
    Accepting something is unscriptural as what changes a heart. Scripture says God alone Gives a new heart:
    25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

    26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


    [Hardships through vices and bad habits – alcoholism, drugs, even severe smoking, over eating etc., is one road to eventual humility. Stealing, lying, cheating, lewdness, acts of the carnal body, feeling depressed is another avenue. Whatever way that works for the heart to be arrested, reexamine itself and become once more open to God’s truth is the goal]
    Sorry this is story time, that is not supported by scripture
    .
    [Even at this point of humility and openness to God’s truth, one can still reject it after understanding it and become lost forever. Their heart was not cultivated to accept the truth. If one accepts his truth for salvation, there is a miraculous change within that heart that cannot be reversed by any man, even him or herself in question. ]
    No where does the bible speak of accepting anything, we are made accepted IN the Beloved eph1:6



    [This is an age-old argument has no biblical merit. It only has carnal mental merit from a selfish unconverted heart, as it cannot understand spiritual things of God and be in the spirit of God.

    So, God does not force anyone to convert, although he knows who shall beforehand. As I alluded to in my last post, this decision is not a purely carnal decision for those that accept his truth. It is only a purely carnal decision made by those that reject his truth.]

    No scripture once again??? :oops::(:oops:
     
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  18. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    "Jane_Doe22,

    [I highlighted this part of your post because it is my biggest focus-- that a person has the free will to accept Christ's gift, or is it forced.]

    In Scripture the will of man is not free, but bound by his selfish and sinfull nature. It is never described as free will, not once

    [Your answer here seems to very much acknowledge free will and that Christ dies for all men (aka no Limited Atonement).]
    These two false ideas are not found in scripture, that is why no scripture was offered.
     
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  19. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Of course, one of the main reasons there is division in the body of Christ is because men became teachers to pander to itching ears, and wrote translations other than the kjv in contradiction to the truth. Thus it is fulfilled:

    2Ti 4:3, For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
    2Ti 4:4, And they shall turn away their ears from the truth...
     
  20. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Predestinated to hell according to foreknowledge.
     
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