Why "LAW" =/= "OLD COVENANT"

[Phoneman777]

Those among us who preach "Christian freedom = Lawlessness" famously argue that "the Old Covenant was the Law and the New Covenant is Grace". If that's true, we should able to replace "law" with "old covenant" in Scripture, right?

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."
Romans 3:31 King James Version

"Do we then make void the (old covenant) through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the (old covenant)."
Romans 3:31 Krazy Juxtaposition Version​

Christians establish the Old Covenant? Which Paul said "waxed old" and "vanished away"?
Clearly, the Law is not the Old Covenant.​

A Covenant is "an agreement between two parties based on mutual promises". In the Old Covenant, "Law" and "Blessings of God" were components of the Old Covenant, to which God and Israel promised to obligate themselves respectively - God promised to bless Israel if Israel promised to obey God's law. The Israelites broke their promise.

So, God decided to replace the Old Covenant with the New Covenant in which He would "write My laws in their minds and on their hearts". The same components remain, except that instead of the Christian promise to obey God's Law, God promises to obey His own law for us and in us when we invite Jesus into our heart.

Same law,(the Moral Law of Ten Commandments, seeing that the Mosaic Law ended at Calvary),
Same blessings,
Same awesome promises of God, minus the weak, promises of man which are prone to failure.

"Nothing in my hand I bring, simply to the Cross I cling."
"Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe, sin had left a crimson stain, He washed it white as snow".

 

[Heb 13:8]

Those among us who preach "Christian freedom = Lawlessness"

Which is all in your head Phone. Believers do not preach lawlessness, less you be the accuser of the spirit.

Christians establish the Old Covenant? Which Paul said "waxed old" and "vanished away"?
Clearly, the Law is not the Old Covenant.

Right, and believers do not depend on the Law to keep them saved, they depend on the finished work of the cross. The cross, Gospel, truth offends. 1 Cor 1:18, 2 Jhn 1:2.

1 Cor 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Rom 11:28-29 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for (gar) God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

gar: for, indeed (a conjunc. used to express cause, explanation, inference or continuation)
Original Word: γάρ
Part of Speech: Conjunction
Transliteration: gar
Phonetic Spelling: (gar)
Short Definition: for
Definition: for.

HELPS Word-studies

1063 gár (a conjunction) – for. While "for" is usually the best translation of 1063 (gár), its sense is shaped by the preceding statement – the "A" statement which precedes the 1063 (gár) statement in the "A-B" unit.

 

[Enoch111]

Those among us who preach "Christian freedom = Lawlessness"

Who preaches this nonsense?

Anyhow the term "the Law" in the Bible can mean several things, depending on the context:

1. The entire Old Testament
2. The Torah (first five books of the OT)
3. The Old Covenant (the Law of Moses)
4. The Ten Commandments

In the book of Romans"the Law" generally means either the Ten Commandments or the Old Covenant. Please note that both are mentioned in this verse:

Therefore by the deeds of the law [OLD COVENANT] there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [THE TEN COMMANDMENTS] is the knowledge of sin. (Rom 3:20)

The Ten Commandments show human beings that they have broken God's Laws (in whole or in part). Hence "the knowledge of sin". But the Old Covenant (the Law of Moses) gave Israel 613 laws. And many Jews thought that if they could only be *Torah observant* they would be justified. But the Bible says otherwise.

 

[Heb 13:8]

And what is the Gospel that offends?

Act 15:7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Rom 11:28-29 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

2Co 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 1:18-21 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,

- Heb

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

Which is all in your head Phone. Believers do not preach lawlessness, less you be the accuser of the spirit....

Some indeed do preach "anomos" (no law), while others preach 'anti-nomos', a law/tradition in the place of God's law (Ten Commandments), a law of their own making, their own righteousness, apart from God's righteousness. 2 ditches, same result.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Some indeed do preach "anomos" (no law), while others preach 'anti-nomos', a law/tradition in the place of God's law (Ten Commandments), a law of their own making, their own righteousness, apart from God's righteousness. 2 ditches, same result.

I'm not sure who would do that, believers are well aware of the law.

 

[Phoneman777]

Which is all in your head Phone. Believers do not preach lawlessness, less you be the accuser of the spirit.

James says if you break any one of the Ten Commandments, you break them all - lawlessness. When you preach we may disregard one - the Sabbath - you are preaching lawlessness. Not in my head, but in your posts, my brother.

Right, and believers do not depend on the Law to keep them saved, they depend on the finished work of the cross. The cross, Gospel, truth offends. 1 Cor 1:18, 2 Jhn 1:2.

Of course we do. What does that have to do with the fact that you and others essentially teach we can worship Satan (violate the First Commandment) and still go to heaven?

1 Cor 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Why are you trolling me with rebuttals to arguments that I don't make? Of course the Cross is the power of God unto salvation.

 

[Phoneman777]

Rom 11:28-29 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for (gar) God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

gar: for, indeed (a conjunc. used to express cause, explanation, inference or continuation)
Original Word: γάρ
Part of Speech: Conjunction
Transliteration: gar
Phonetic Spelling: (gar)
Short Definition: for
Definition: for.

HELPS Word-studies

1063 gár (a conjunction) – for. While "for" is usually the best translation of 1063 (gár), its sense is shaped by the preceding statement – the "A" statement which precedes the 1063 (gár) statement in the "A-B" unit.

I think by this post you are admitting that the Law is NOT the Old Covenant, right?

 

[Phoneman777]

Some indeed do preach "anomos" (no law), while others preach 'anti-nomos', a law/tradition in the place of God's law (Ten Commandments), a law of their own making, their own righteousness, apart from God's righteousness. 2 ditches, same result.

And the ones who preach anomos want the Law and the Old Covenant to be the same thing.

 

[Phoneman777]

Who preaches this nonsense?

You've never heard people preach that the "Law" is the "Old Covenant" and therefore the Law may be as easily disregarded as the Old Covenant? I see it all the time.

 

[Phoneman777]

I'm not sure who would do that, believers are well aware of the law.

When believers who are aware of the Law (which in the N.T. is the Ten Commandments because the Mosaic Law of ceremonies and sacrifices which pointed to Jesus as "shadows of things to come" was nailed to the Cross) preach we may disregard any part of the Law, they are preaching lawlessness. A blind man can see this.

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

And the ones who preach anomos want the Law and the Old Covenant to be the same thing.

Don't I know it brother, after years of experience in online places and in person. They do not know what they affirm when they do it, being an assault upon God's own unchanging and immutable character (Exodus 33:12-23; 34:1-9; Exodus 20:5-6).

If one were to carefully and prayerfully (this is key) read Exodus 19 and 24, along with Hebrews 8 & 10, Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 36, among others, they would see that there is a difference between God's everlasting covenant (Ten Commandments), which are His unfailing promises, and the peoples faulty promises.

For instance:

The 'old covenant' [Exodus 19:3-9 KJB, "All that the LORD hath spoken we will do"].

[see Exodus 19:3-8 KJB, for the 'old covenant' is never, in all of scripture [KJB], the Ten Commandments [the perfect, righteousness, spiritual, holy, just and good and eternal Law of God; Psalms 19:7; Romans 9:31; Romans 7:14; James 1:25; Psalms 119:44-45; Romans 7:12; Psalms 89:34; Exodus 20:1-17, especially Exodus 20:8, “holy”, see Isaiah 58:13; 2 Peter 3:2 KJB], but was always the faulty promises of the peoples Israel after the flesh, made in agreement to do all that the LORD says. They failed. Why? Works and no Faith [Romans 9:32 KJB]. They [in general] attempted without God's strength [Revelation 12:10-12; Romans 5:6; 1 Corinthians 1:24 KJB], and though they were free physically, they were still slaves spiritually, that is of the heart and mind: 'all that the LORD hath said we will do', their faulty promises, and yet they did not, for they sinned by the golden calf.

The Everlasting Covenant [New, which existed before the 'old', even from eternity, for the Father and Son clasped hands in agreement, the Holy Ghost as Witness, should [when] sin [the mystery of iniquity] arise, they would work out the plan of Redemption, thus it is “the everlasting covenant” or the covenant of life and peace, or the counsel of peace, ratified by the blood of the Son of God Himself and by the Father in Heaven, see Psalms 89:3,28,34, 105:8; Isaiah 13:12, 42:6; Malachi 2:5 [Jesus is the True Levi, meaning attached unto His Father], 3:1; John 19:30 [he finished laying the foundation, the words were unto His Father], 17:24 [the agreement in eternity past was made, Jesus kept His word, performed His vows, and now the promise from the Father was to be fulfilled]; John 3:16; John 19:28; Hebrews 13:20; Revelation 13:8; Psalms 40:7-8; Hebrews 10:7-9; Psalms 116:14-18; Ezekiel 38:23; John 17:19; John 10:18; 8:28; Psalms 110:4; Zechariah 6:13, etc., etc. for surely as the Rainbow is above God's throne, so the covenant between Father and Son, witnessed by the Holy Ghost, is eternal, KJB] is God's, “I will ...”, His Promise; more on this in detail later, as needed. The 'old covenant' is not the same as God's 'my covenant', which we establish by Faith [Romans 3:31 KJB]. They are two things, not one, which will be demonstrated in thorough detail later, as needed. God's Ten Commandments are all perfect promises, without fault.]​

The Ten Commandments are the Eternal promises of God, which are in the New/Everlasting Covenant in Christ Jesus, for God sais, "I will" send my Son. "I will" write "my laws" in their hearts. "I will" cause them to walk in my laws. "I will" forgive them. "I will" cleanse them. "I will" give them my Holy Spirit, etc, etc.

The Ten Commandments begins with Grace, Exodius 20:1-2 KJB, requires faith unto obedience, and can only be fulfilled by the indwelling love of God [Exodus 20:6; John 14:15 KJB].

The 'old covenant' was their faulty promises [Exodus 19:3-9 KJB, "All that the LORD hath spoken we will do"] to obey God in His "My covenant" [Everlasting/New], apart from God doing it in them [Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:8-13, 10:16; Ezekiel 36:25-28, 37:26; 2 Corinthians 3:1-3 KJB, etc].

Hebrews 8:6 KJB - But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Hebrews 8:7 KJB - For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Hebrews 8:8 KJB - For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:9 KJB - Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.​

The Ten Commandments have not one faulty promise, lest you would find fault with the character of God Himself?

Psalms 19:7 KJB - The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Here are the Ten Commandments, let any show us the fault in them? (Bewarel est you find fault with God Himself, even as the pharisees saught to find in Jesus; John 8:46)

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Exo 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Exo 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Exo 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.

Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Exo 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.​

 

[Heb 13:8]

What does that have to do with the fact that you and others essentially teach we can worship Satan

Your idea of Grace is so misconstrued that it would take the power of God to change you. Only then will you stop condemning Christians and get rid of that anger in your heart, via the spirit of Saul and actually grow to maturity. Heb 5:14, Heb 6:1.

Acts 8:1-3 And Saul approved of their killing him. On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. 2Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. 3But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison.

Phil 3:4-6 though I myself have reasons for such confidence. If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.

And what is the root cause of persecution against Christians?

Matt 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

1 Cor 6:11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

God bless. - Heb

 

[Heb 13:8]

Don't I know it brother, after years of experience in online places and in person. They do not know what they affirm when they do it, being an assault upon God's own unchanging and immutable character (Exodus 33:12-23; 34:1-9; Exodus 20:5-6).

If one were to carefully and prayerfully (this is key) read Exodus 19 and 24, along with Hebrews 8 & 10, Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 36, among others, they would see that there is a difference between God's everlasting covenant (Ten Commandments), which are His unfailing promises, and the peoples faulty promises.

Why does NON-OSAS love quoting the OT for evidence of losing salvation? Before Pentecost and before the seal of God? How does that help your case, just curious.

 

[Helen]

Why does NON-OSAS love quoting the OT for evidence of losing salvation? Before Pentecost and before the seal of God? How does that help your case, just curious.

I believe it is just a habit...and because it is handed down fro most pulpits.
But, mostly because the person themselves has not taken the time to wait before the Lord and harken to His voice.
It is much easier to be spoon fed....no listening, or waiting or seeking for the Truth for themselves.... needed for that. ...canned doctrine is always close at hand.

 

[brakelite]

Your idea of Grace is so misconstrued that it would take the power of God to change you. Only then will you stop condemning Christians and get rid of that anger in your heart, via the spirit of Saul and actually grow to maturity. Heb 5:14, Heb 6:1.

Acts 8:1-3 And Saul approved of their killing him. On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. 2Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. 3But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison.

Phil 3:4-6 though I myself have reasons for such confidence. If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.

And what is the root cause of persecution against Christians?

Matt 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

1 Cor 6:11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

God bless. - Heb

Seriously? You equate a belief that people can choose to leave God and voicing that belief, with persecution? If I should encourage a believer never to take his faith for granted, that he should cherish it and grow it never taking his eyes away from his Saviour, and warning him that if he does so, there is danger of missing out on heaven, you would accuse me of persecuting that person????? That I would be demonstrating the same spirit that saw Saul persecuting the church? Please, get a grip man.

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

Why does NON-OSAS love quoting the OT for evidence of losing salvation?

Because evidence is evidence, and I do not turn a blind eye to that which clearly is truth, as others, who simply handwave and pretend it doesn't exist. They live in a fantasy, cloud land and aether castles.

We believe in the full assurance of salvation, but that does not negate the freedom to leave God. It is relationship.

Before Pentecost and before the seal of God?

That is your misunderstanding. The Holy Ghost was available to Adam. It was available to King Saul, who was born again, but ultimately blasphemed away the Holy Ghost, as anyone can do.

Pentecost is no magical protection against the personal choice to leave and cease from believing and I can demonstrate this simply with Acts 4-5.

We are not saying it has to be that way, but we teach what the Bible says, that it is possible if one does not take heed to God.

How does that help your case, just curious.

OT and NT is against the deadly doctrine of OSAS. It nearly cost my friend his marriage, and his life (he was arrested and served time). You will just say he never believed. Nonsense. I know him, and you don't. What he believed, by what he was taught, filthy presumptuous OSAS, cost him. I was finally able to show him the error of it by the grace of God. OSAS people make themselves the judge of all who are finally saved and lost, by making themselves the ones who cannot be lost. They say that now. Easy to do that. They live in presumption land.

OSAS is like dynamite. It gives light for awhile, and seems good, but after awhile, it goes out in a flash and sudden darkness.

I would normally repond to the OSAS stuff, but you don't listen, and you rewrite scripture to suit your own purposes and do not acknowledge what is clearly stated, as in the case of Romans 8.

 

[Phoneman777]

I believe it is just a habit...and because it is handed down fro most pulpits.
But, mostly because the person themselves has not taken the time to wait before the Lord and harken to His voice.
It is much easier to be spoon fed....no listening, or waiting or seeking for the Truth for themselves.... needed for that. ...canned doctrine is always close at hand.

ByGrace, Jesus told a parable of the Unmerciful Servant where the symbolism is unmistakable:

Servant = sinners
The servant's lord = God
10,000 talent impossible debt = sinners' impossible sin debt for which no sinner can pay himself
Lord forgives the 10,000 talent debt = God through Jesus' sacrifice forgives our sin and we are set free from the penalty

...and the last part of the parable which exposes the unBiblical nature of OSAS...

The unmerciful servant's impossible debt reinstated against him for refusing to manifest the forgiving character of his lord = God's withdrawal of forgiveness from the Christian because he refuses to give up his unrighteous ways.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Seriously? You equate a belief that people can choose to leave God and voicing that belief, with persecution? If I should encourage a believer never to take his faith for granted, that he should cherish it and grow it never taking his eyes away from his Saviour, and warning him that if he does so, there is danger of missing out on heaven, you would accuse me of persecuting that person????? That I would be demonstrating the same spirit that saw Saul persecuting the church? Please, get a grip man.

It's one thing to tell Christians to obey or they will be thrown into hell (teaching them false doctrine), it's another thing to guide them in love, but you would need the indwelling Holy Spirit to do that. God bless.