Why Should the Church Endure the Great Trib?

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Trekson

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I believe I can answer this question through God's word. "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." I think it's safe to assume that the whole bible is God's message to the church in one way or another via 2 Tim. 3:16 - “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” (KJV)

A serious believer in a pre-trib rapture might pose this question: What is the purpose of the rapture, if not to keep us from the tribulation and the wrath to come?

My reply would be that this is the wrong question to ask. As a pre-wrath believer, I agree that the main reason for the rapture is to take us away from God's wrath, which is not for the church according to 1 Thess. 5:9 - “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” As stated earlier, I believe His wrath begins at the opening of the seventh seal. I think a better question the church of God should ask themselves is: Why must the church endure the great tribulation?

Let's take a trip down memory lane to the book of Job. You know the story, he was the richest man on earth yet he lost everything, family, house, possessions, etc. Similar to some of the losses we may face as believers in the midst of the great tribulation. He questions God about the unfairness and seeming injustice of all that befell him. Chapters 38-41 record God's answer to Job. But what brought about his calamity in the first place?

Job 1:8-11
- Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil." "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan re-plied. "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face." (NIV)

To put it in a nutshell, Satan was testing Job's faith and God allowed it. During the great trib, Satan is again given permission to test our faith and this time he is allowed to harm our bodies and kill some of us! Why? Because now we are in Christ and our enemy; death, has been triumphed over through Jesus Christ.

Why must the church endure the great tribulation?
James 1:2-4 - "
Consider it pure joy, my brothers, when-ever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perse-verance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything." (NIV)

Matt. 13:18-22
- "Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. (NIV)

The 70th week will wean out those for whom Christianity is convenient or for those who use it as a means of good social standing. We will be purified as though with fire.

1 Peter 1:5-7
- ..."who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith--of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed." (NIV)

We must also remember these words of Peter as well. They are of utmost importance.

1 Peter 4:12-19
- "Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And, "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good." (NIV)

There are many christians in the world that are suffering this very minute. When the great trib comes among them it will be like "business as usual", but for the other places in the world where christians have become lazy and complacent, it will be a time of severe testing. You may offer up Noah and Lot as examples of people who were rescued from tribulation but keep in mind they did not leave the earth. I offer up Job as an example that God does and will test his people through trials and tribulations, to wean out those who are christians in word only because it has not reached their heart.

A person may believe that God only does things involving christians for a purpose! His purpose in allowing christians to go through some of the 70th week is to provide a vast witness for Him. Some scholars believe the 144,000 of Rev. 7 fulfill that purpose but I disagree. They are sealed and protected and if they did witness (which scripture never says they do), just preaching the word will not be enough. The world has been preached to for millennia. What greater testimony can God have then people who are willing to lay down their lives for their Lord and Savior, The 144,000 will never become martyrs but as God is ending the world as we know it, in a final time of wrath, I think it only logical that prior to His wrath, God will show the world through the greater witness of martyrdom and other efforts of the church that He is real and that His Son Jesus is Lord of All!

However, not all will be martyrs! Some of us will just give up our luxuries and the simple things like a roof over our head and food in our stomach because we will refuse to accept the mark of the beast that will allow us those simples pleasures. Our faith will be in God to provide for us and He will!! Our insanity (from the world's point of view) will hit the news media big time. We will be talked about all over the world, our opportunity to witness will be sure. Some will fail, but hopefully, most of us won't and when judgment day comes for those who witness our seeming insanity because of our faith, it is our job to make sure they won't have an excuse when they stand before God! One final thought. When the church is persecuted and going through hard times, the power of the Holy Spirit is made more manifest and miracles will be witnessed around the world as well. So then it can be truly stated, "When the gates of hell came down to earth, they did not prevail against us!!" Something that could not be said if we were raptured prior to the 70th week!

A little about the timing of the great tribulation

Let’s see if we can narrow down the timing of the great trib. Matt. 24:21 - “For then shall be great tribulation…” This means that the great trib. happens after the events of vs. 4-20, including vs. 15, which has the abomination of desolation, which we know is at the midpoint of the 70th week. Now what does the following vs. 22 say, “...for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened“. This ties in the fact that the great trib. is affecting believers, not the world in general.

Mark 13:19 & 20 echoes this exact order, but uses the term affliction. Luke 21:22 does as well, using the term vengeance and shows in vs. 28, "And when all these things begin to come to pass, (everything mentioned in the previous verses) then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draweth nigh." (KJV) (words in parenthesis mine) This great tribulation upon believers is the result of Satan's wrath as pictured in Rev. 12:17 - “Then the dragon was enraged at the woman (believing Israel) and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus (the church).” (NIV)

Here’s a theory I developed on why the new testament writers seemed to believe Christ’s return was imminent. Paul and other bible authors, in their writings, wrote as if Christ would return in their lifetime. (1 Thess. 4:15, note the word we) Now with that in mind read 1 Thess. 3: 3&4, "That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass and ye know." (KJV)

I believe that Paul felt they were at the beginning of sorrows point (the first 3 1/2 yr. segment) of Daniel's 70th week and his followers did as well, hence the need for Paul to reassure them that that day (rapture/resurrection) would not occur until after the man of lawlessness is revealed at the mid-point of the 70[sup]th[/sup] week when the a/c sits on the throne and declares himself God and sets up the abomination of desolation.

There is one main reason why Paul and the early church thought Christ would return in their lifetime and that is because many of the signs that He told them about in the Olivet Discourse seemed to be happening. There was a great famine in the Jerusalem area, earthquakes had happened in diverse areas, Christians were being put to death and jailed because of their beliefs, and Jerusalem was soon to be under the Roman siege of A.D. 70. Paul in the next verse, describes how we’ll know when that event will occur, which we know takes place at the mid point of Daniel's 70th week.

Now we come to Rev. 7:9. This great multitude suddenly appears in heaven. They are identified in vs. 14 as "they which came out of great tribulation." Again confirming the great trib is upon believers and not the world in general. You have to go with the flow of all the scriptures, not just a select few. Nowhere in scripture does it say that tribulation or great tribulation will last seven years. Logically, there is only one conclusion and that is this multitude represents the rapture.

If it is not the rapture, then this also develops a couple of problems for the pre-trib rapture theory. One, is that there must be a second rapture that brings these folks to heaven at the same time before the conclusion of the rest of Revelations, which is not alluded to anywhere in scripture.

The other is, you can't have both a great apostasy and a great revival happening at the same time. Pre-trib rapturists believe that as a result of missing the rapture there will be a great revival that will sweep across the world but scripture never speaks of this.

The scriptures do tell us that there will be a great falling away. 2 Thess. 2:3 - Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…“ (KJV) This is called the apostasy from the Greek word “apostasia“. My dictionary defines apostasy as, “the abandonment of a former allegiance as in turning away from one’s religious faith. This apostasy will be the result of many believers who feel that they have been misled or lied to by their pastors because they haven’t been raptured or rescued from these hard times as they had always been taught. They will begin to doubt all the other teachings and in the midst of trials and tribulations will fall away from the truth as the parable of the sower explains to us in Matt. 4.

Paul also says in 2 Thess. 2:11&12 - God will send a delusion so that mankind will believe the lie, that they might be damned who believed not the truth” (NIV).

This theory of a second chance for a separate group of tribulation saints is not scriptural, especially a multi-national group so large they can't be numbered.

To conclude, the Great Tribulation is upon believers as explained in 1 Peter 1:5-7, "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” (the real meaning of Rev. 3:10) In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith-of greater worth then gold, which perishes even though refined by fire-may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed." (KJV)

This fact is also the basis of the wheat and tares parable. We will be sifted together and only the true spotless body of Christ will emerge from the great tribulation "...having washed our robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Rev. 7:14 NIV)
 

revturmoil

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A serious believer in a pre-trib rapture might pose this question: What is the purpose of the rapture, if not to keep us from the tribulation and the wrath to come?
The prupose is that God removes His own so that he can do battle without injuring or killing His own when he comes to destroy them which destroy the earth. Every government removes their citizens from an area they are about to invade and so will the Lord. He does it for our protection. He doesn't remove us from tribulation. He removes us from Armageddon!

My reply would be that this is the wrong question to ask. As a pre-wrath believer, I agree that the main reason for the rapture is to take us away from God's wrath,

1 Thess. 5:9 - "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Can't you see that it's salvation and not a rapture that averts God's wrath? And you say you haven't added or changed anything!

Again. What a bunch of fabrication, contradiction and complications. It's really sad to see people like you and the rest of your camp as well as the pre-trib camp so blatantly deceived. God help you come out of denial and see the truth.
 

Trekson

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Kaotic, Here's the definition of the word "salvation" per the Strong's G4991 - "rescue, safety, deliver". Soul salvation is not in sight with this verse.
 

revturmoil

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Trekson said,

[quote]Kaotic, Here's the definition of the word "salvation" per the Strong's G4991 - "rescue, safety, deliver". Soul salvation is not in sight with this verse.[/quote]You should know better than to get yourself into these things. You're just going on to more fabrications to counter your contradictions!
You said,
SOUL SALVATION IS NOT IN SIGHT OF THIS VERSE????? (verse 9)
Is that why verse 10 reads, "Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him."

Is that why the remainder of Strong's say's this about salvation,

2) salvation as the present possession of all true Christians

3) future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.

And is that why on the same page Thayer's say's,

That which conduces to the soul's safety or salvation! AND...Salvation as the present possession of all true Christians!

Thayer's also made this comment (and so did Strong's) about the word salvation in 1 Thes. 5:9

Future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the comsummated and eternal kingdom of God.
And this,
Salvation which is bestowed on us belongs to God! Rev. 7:10
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Thes. 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Vines say's that 1 Thes. 5 say's...."where salvation is assured to them, as being deliverance from the wrath of God destined to be executed upon the ungodly at the end of this age." Not at the first trumpet or 6th seal!

1 Thes. 5 is talking about the Day of the Lord. A phrase that you have changed the meaning and timing of!

I have no problem that salvation can mean safety. That's why he removes His elect before ARMAGEDDON!

All I can say is get out of this debate before you really make a fool of yourself!
 

Trekson

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Kaotic, Your words: "Is that why verse 10 reads, "Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him."

What's your point? whether we are alive or dead we should live together with him. Sounds like a pre-wrath rapture affirmation to me!

Regarding your supposed Strong's and Thayer's quotes. The add-ons you refer to in the Strong's must come from the on-line version as it is full of stuff that the actual Strong's does not contain, as such, these are just other peoples opinions of what Strong's says and is as reliable as wikipedia. Thayer's was debunked in the early 1900's and has been proven to be a totally inaccurate representation of what a greek lexicon should be.

Vine's "end of the age" is accurate, to bad you don't understand what that means.

Your words: "All I can say is get out of this debate before you really make a fool of yourself!"

If we were to take a poll on this board of whom people think is making a fool of themselves. I wouldn't be the one concerned.

Here's some advice. Stop having other references and people tell you what to think and believe. The bible says "the Holy Spirit will lead us to understanding". Try it sometime, it will rock your world, but then as the saying goes...you probably couldn't handle the truth!
 

revturmoil

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Kaotic, Your words: "Is that why verse 10 reads, "Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him."

What's your point? whether we are alive or dead we should live together with him. Sounds like a pre-wrath rapture affirmation to me!

Regarding your supposed Strong's and Thayer's quotes. The add-ons you refer to in the Strong's must come from the on-line version as it is full of stuff that the actual Strong's does not contain, as such, these are just other peoples opinions of what Strong's says and is as reliable as wikipedia. Thayer's was debunked in the early 1900's and has been proven to be a totally inaccurate representation of what a greek lexicon should be.

Vine's "end of the age" is accurate, to bad you don't understand what that means.

Your words: "All I can say is get out of this debate before you really make a fool of yourself!"

If we were to take a poll on this board of whom people think is making a fool of themselves. I wouldn't be the one concerned.

Here's some advice. Stop having other references and people tell you what to think and believe. The bible says "the Holy Spirit will lead us to understanding". Try it sometime, it will rock your world, but then as the saying goes...you probably couldn't handle the truth!

What's my point? You're the one that said, "SOUL SALVATION IS NOT IN SIGHT OF THIS VERSE"
If Paul said THIS in verse 9.
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
And this is what Paul said in verse 10...
1Thes. 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Then you are 100% wrong TO SAY, "SOUL SALVATION IS NOT IN SIGHT OF THIS VERSE" SINCE Jesus died for our salvation!

And you are wrong about Strong's! Strongs, Vine's, the CWD, Wuest, and even the Textus Receptus are all in agreement on this issue. You are the one in error fabricating all kinds of things to cover up the contradictions!! Not them!
I understand what the end of the age Means. You have changed the meaning of that phrase to fit your eschatology!

Here's some advice for you. Get a hermeneutic! Come out of denial! Stand for God's Word and not for a debunked pre-wrath rapture theory! Stop the fabrications! Go back to school!

When it comes to the rapture....you are one very misled individual!
 

Trekson

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Hmmm Weighing options... Hermeneutic or Holy Spirit, Hermeneutic or Holy Spirit. I think I'll stay with the Holy Spirit!
 

revturmoil

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Hmmm Weighing options... Hermeneutic or Holy Spirit, Hermeneutic or Holy Spirit. I think I'll stay with the Holy Spirit!
That's the line that people resort to when they've been debunked and have no place to go. That's when they make the claims that they are led by the Holy Spirit and the other person is not.

You are the inspired one! To fabricate....or not to fabricate!
If you were led by the Holy Spirit on this issue you wouldn't be a fabricationist!
 

veteran

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Simple, because thats what the Bible says.

That's what my answer would also be to the topic question of why should the Church endure the great tribulation. That's what God's Word teaches us.

So are those who refuse to accept that show weakness of Faith? I think so, and some more than others.

I also think it shows they have a lack of understanding about this present world, and why God brought it instead of just doing away with the Devil and those who rebelled with him at the start.
 

tgwprophet

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Can we not consider that Tribulation is a test... a futher testing of people. That it is not the rapture of the " church " for there are those of the church that are not raptured because they either neef further testing or remain to help others through their test? Rain falls on the just and unjust alike.. and so it remains through Tribulation and those that suffer the most for God are rewarded the most from God. We are even told of those remaining faithful being be-headed, do you think they are not rained on? If the church went in the rapture why are they left behind? The Bible does not say or claim that everyone denying the Mark of the Beast will become be-headed, so certainly there are those that survive persecution and are not be-headed.

There are those that are so strong in their faith in Jesus that they will be be-headed rather than denounce their faith and take the Beast's Mark.. so why did they not go in the rapture when it occurs...if the Church goes?

To be able to withstand the persecutions of Tribulations and remain faithful...or even become MORE faithful is an opportunity for believers that can hold their ground and mature their faith. God knows every hair on your head, why then do you think you would be in harms way during Armageddon? The Jews will be there and they will not be harmed as Jesus will defend them... does that not also mean he will protect them from harm? Harms way prior to Amrageddon...yes.

What to say when not taken in the rapture... " YES!... THIS IS A CHANCE TO PROVE MY FAITH WHILE HELPING OTHERS FOR GOD!!!
 

veteran

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It is sad that so many preachers today are busy preaching escapism concerning the tribulation time that they cannot fathom why Christ's Church is going to be here for it.

The reason is in order to DO BATTLE.

Not a battle with physical weapons, but a battle by The Spirit against Satan and his host that are coming to this earth.

This is why Apostle Paul admonished us to put on the whole armour of God so as to make that 'stand'... in the "evil day" (Eph.6). It is not for to run and escape; it is in order to do battle to the very end of this world.

The result of many preacher's preaching today has many Christians with the attitude like, "Well I'm not going to be here, so I don't have to worry", or like, "I'm glad The Lord is going to rapture me out, because I'm scared!" NONE of those in Christ Jesus should have that kind of attitude today.

The LORD is looking for those of His willing to make a stand during the tribulation time, to give His Witness against them by The Holy Spirit. He wants those like His prophet Isaiah who stood up and asked to be sent.

If you want to know more about this, study the Ezekiel 13 chapter, for it involves the stand the house of Israel is to make in the end of this world (Ezek.13:5). He is angry because the leaders of the house of Israel aren't preparing His people to make that stand.
 

7angels

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EZEK 13 refers to The Lord's Promises to Judge False Prophets for Their Lies and not because the leaders of the house of Israel aren't preparing God's people to make that stand.

God bless
 

veteran

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7angels said:
EZEK 13 refers to The Lord's Promises to Judge False Prophets for Their Lies and not because the leaders of the house of Israel aren't preparing God's people to make that stand.

God bless
Do I really need to hold people's hand here through simple Scripture? It would appear so...

Ezek 13:1-23
1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;
3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!
4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.


It's about "foolish prophets" that follow their own spirit, not 'false' prophets. For today that means lot of the preachers in today's pulpits over His Church here on earth. That is who He is speaking this to for today. Those are different than false prophets, because these represent leaders in position to serve The LORD and His people. The Hebrew word for "foolish" is 'nabal' which its root means to 'fall away'. So these are His He is telling Ezekiel to prophesy against.


5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.

The idea is they have not filled up the gaps, nor made a fence around the house of Israel so they might make a stand in the battle of the day of the LORD.

When is that "day of the LORD" event? It's the day of Christ's second coming. This is LATTER day timing He is giving us here especially. The "house of Israel" is put for the ten tribes of Israel at this point in history, so this is NOT about Judah (Jews). The majority of the ten tribes were scattered to the West and became the western Christian nations. This is about Christ's Church today, ten tribed Israel scattered among the Gentiles acting as Gentiles.


6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.

These are claiming God told them this or that, and He did not speak to them. These are especially about the 'hirelings' our Lord Jesus warned us about in John 10. When the wolves creep in they run instead of protecting the sheep. They treat duties in God's House like a business is why, which is what the 'hireling' idea is about.


7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, "The LORD saith it"; albeit I have not spoken?
8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.


Again, they claim God spoke this or that to them, and He did not speak to them. Instead, they speak "a lying divination". And He's going to get to the matter later here about a certain lie they push.


9 And Mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of My people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

This is a very serious charge our Heavenly Father is giving there against them.


10 Because, even because they have seduced My people, saying, "Peace"; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:

These are speaking "Peace" when there is no peace. Who in the pulpits would that be today? It's a sign especially of those preachers today which are serving the cause of the final beast one-world system over all the earth for the end. Apostle Paul said in 1 Thess.5 that when they shall say, "Peace and safety", then a sudden destruction will come upon them. So these represent the tricksters in God's House that are deceiving His people about the latter day events, not preparing His people to make a stand.


11 Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it.

The idea of "untempered morter" is like a white wash that when it rains it washes away. That's what's holding their false wall up which they build.


12 Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, "Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it?"

When it falls, won't it be said to them, "Where is the daubing...?" In other words, where's your foundation of lying divinations you claimed from God?


13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in My fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in Mine anger, and great hailstones in My fury to consume it.
14 So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
15 Thus will I accomplish my wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, "The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it;"


When is that going to happen? It's to occur on the last day of this present world, when Christ returns.


16 To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord GOD.
17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,


Our Lord Jesus warned that as along as we hear of wars and rumours of wars, then the end is NOT yet (Matt.24:6). The opposite of wars and rumours of wars is a time of peace. That's what is set to happen for the tribulation time, a world peace, but not a true peace, not a real peace, not for God's people. It is going to be a time of great persecution upon Christ's Church. But these foolish prophets will be speaking of peace, claiming there is peace, when there is no peace. Those false claims have already begun with many of them in today's pulpits pushing the ideas of the one-world globalists towards support of a "one world government" over all nations and peoples.



18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

This is a difficult translation. Per the Hebrew it's the idea of placing coverings over the outstretched hands of God's people, like a veil to hide Him from the people. He asks these foolish prophets if it's they who will save His people. They hunt the people's souls, but is it they who will save?


19 And will ye pollute Me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?

Even more to the point; they pollute our Heavenly Father among His people for GAIN (for "handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread" = the hireling, making a business out of it, following their own ways). By doing that they spiritually slay the souls that should not die, and instead save the souls alive that should not live. Thus they actually promote evil ones while allowing His people to be persecuted.



20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

Here's the latter day doctrine that is at the center of this. What doctrine of men is it that preaches for the people to fly in order to save their souls? It's the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory of men.


21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver My people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
(KJV)


God is going to deliver those who love Him that are trapped in those lies that some in His Church have created. And those which are false that thought they were delivered by these foolish prophets, will not be.
 

7angels

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veteran said:
Do I really need to hold people's hand here through simple Scripture? It would appear so...

Ezek 13:1-23
1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;
3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!
4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.


It's about "foolish prophets" that follow their own spirit, not 'false' prophets. For today that means lot of the preachers in today's pulpits over His Church here on earth. That is who He is speaking this to for today. Those are different than false prophets, because these represent leaders in position to serve The LORD and His people. The Hebrew word for "foolish" is 'nabal' which its root means to 'fall away'. So these are His He is telling Ezekiel to prophesy against.


5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.

The idea is they have not filled up the gaps, nor made a fence around the house of Israel so they might make a stand in the battle of the day of the LORD.

When is that "day of the LORD" event? It's the day of Christ's second coming. This is LATTER day timing He is giving us here especially. The "house of Israel" is put for the ten tribes of Israel at this point in history, so this is NOT about Judah (Jews). The majority of the ten tribes were scattered to the West and became the western Christian nations. This is about Christ's Church today, ten tribed Israel scattered among the Gentiles acting as Gentiles.


6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.

These are claiming God told them this or that, and He did not speak to them. These are especially about the 'hirelings' our Lord Jesus warned us about in John 10. When the wolves creep in they run instead of protecting the sheep. They treat duties in God's House like a business is why, which is what the 'hireling' idea is about.


7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, "The LORD saith it"; albeit I have not spoken?
8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.


Again, they claim God spoke this or that to them, and He did not speak to them. Instead, they speak "a lying divination". And He's going to get to the matter later here about a certain lie they push.


9 And Mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of My people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

This is a very serious charge our Heavenly Father is giving there against them.


10 Because, even because they have seduced My people, saying, "Peace"; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:

These are speaking "Peace" when there is no peace. Who in the pulpits would that be today? It's a sign especially of those preachers today which are serving the cause of the final beast one-world system over all the earth for the end. Apostle Paul said in 1 Thess.5 that when they shall say, "Peace and safety", then a sudden destruction will come upon them. So these represent the tricksters in God's House that are deceiving His people about the latter day events, not preparing His people to make a stand.


11 Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it.

The idea of "untempered morter" is like a white wash that when it rains it washes away. That's what's holding their false wall up which they build.


12 Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, "Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it?"

When it falls, won't it be said to them, "Where is the daubing...?" In other words, where's your foundation of lying divinations you claimed from God?


13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in My fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in Mine anger, and great hailstones in My fury to consume it.
14 So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
15 Thus will I accomplish my wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, "The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it;"


When is that going to happen? It's to occur on the last day of this present world, when Christ returns.


16 To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord GOD.
17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,


Our Lord Jesus warned that as along as we hear of wars and rumours of wars, then the end is NOT yet (Matt.24:6). The opposite of wars and rumours of wars is a time of peace. That's what is set to happen for the tribulation time, a world peace, but not a true peace, not a real peace, not for God's people. It is going to be a time of great persecution upon Christ's Church. But these foolish prophets will be speaking of peace, claiming there is peace, when there is no peace. Those false claims have already begun with many of them in today's pulpits pushing the ideas of the one-world globalists towards support of a "one world government" over all nations and peoples.



18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

This is a difficult translation. Per the Hebrew it's the idea of placing coverings over the outstretched hands of God's people, like a veil to hide Him from the people. He asks these foolish prophets if it's they who will save His people. They hunt the people's souls, but is it they who will save?


19 And will ye pollute Me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?

Even more to the point; they pollute our Heavenly Father among His people for GAIN (for "handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread" = the hireling, making a business out of it, following their own ways). By doing that they spiritually slay the souls that should not die, and instead save the souls alive that should not live. Thus they actually promote evil ones while allowing His people to be persecuted.



20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

Here's the latter day doctrine that is at the center of this. What doctrine of men is it that preaches for the people to fly in order to save their souls? It's the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory of men.


21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver My people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
(KJV)


God is going to deliver those who love Him that are trapped in those lies that some in His Church have created. And those which are false that thought they were delivered by these foolish prophets, will not be.
The false prophets, who are here prophesied against, were some of them at Jerusalem (Jer. 23:14): I have seen in the prophets at Jerusalem a horrible thing; some of them among the captives in Babylon, for to them Jeremiah writes (Jer. 29:8), Let not your diviners, that be in the midst of you, deceive you. And as God’s prophets, though at a distance from each other in place or time, yet preached the same truths, which was an evidence that they were guided by one and the same good Spirit, so the false prophets prophesied the same lies, being actuated by one and the same spirit of error. There were little hopes of bringing them to repentance, they were so hardened in their sin; yet Ezekiel must prophesy against them, in hopes that the people might be cautioned not to hearken to them; and thus a testimony will be left upon record against them, and they will thereby be left inexcusable.
Ezekiel had express orders to prophesy against the prophets of Israel; so they called themselves, as if none but they had been worthy of the name of Israel’s prophets, who were indeed Israel’s deceivers. But it is observable that Israel was never imposed upon by pretenders to prophecy till after they had rejected and abused the true prophets; as, afterwards, they were never deluded by counterfeit messiahs till after they had refused the true Messiah and rejected him. These false prophets must be required to hear the word of the Lord. They took upon them to speak what concerned others as from God; let them now hear what concerned themselves as from him.

btw
where did you come up with the meanings of these verses? no commentary i read even comes close to what you say. since the word is of no private interpretation then believing you are the only one with understanding of this chapter is flawed.

God bless
 

Graceismine

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Trekson said

My reply would be that this is the wrong question to ask. As a pre-wrath believer, I agree that the main reason for the rapture is to take us away from God's wrath, which is not for the church according to 1 Thess. 5:9 - “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” As stated earlier, I believe His wrath begins at the opening of the seventh seal. I think a better question the church of God should ask themselves is: Why must the church endure the great tribulation?

Pre Wrath belief has certainly come into vogue lately with the leaving of Marvin Rosenthal from his love of the pre trib rapture.

I am unconvinced about Pre Wrath because of the complete ignoring of the Scripture which calls the wrath of God the wrath of Satan .

You say that you believe God's wrath begins at the opening of the seventh seal. The Bible says it begins with the first seal.

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

They see that the wrath has come and they acknowledge it. We are not appointed to wrath and I take that to mean any wrath to do with the Tribulation or to do with Hell.


terry said:
Great Victory comes with great strife... so it may be an opportunity... though I remain unsure if the churchendures the wrath of Tribultaion.
I see it that the "great strife" was borne by Jesus at Calvary when the wrath of God was poured out upon Him. I cannot see why the church for whom He died would have to endure further wrath or testing.
 

Trekson

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Hi Grace, Your verses:
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The highlighted phrase, "is come" is key to understanding this. The phrase is in the present/future tense which means it should read is "about" to come, not that it's been happening for years. The 5th seal martyrs also realize His wrath has not yet begun. Rev. 6:10 - " And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."
There is nothing in scripture that implies the seals are part of the wrath of God and when you read all the scriptures about the "day of the Lord" that begins the "wrath of the Lamb", you'll recognize that the signs of the 6th seal parallel the accounts of the "signs" of its arrival.

I'm not sure what you meant by this: " complete ignoring of the Scripture which calls the wrath of God the wrath of Satan."

But for the record I don't believe the seals are the wrath of satan, if that's what you were implying.
 

veteran

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7angels said:
The false prophets, who are here prophesied against, were some of them at Jerusalem (Jer. 23:14): I have seen in the prophets at Jerusalem a horrible thing; some of them among the captives in Babylon, for to them Jeremiah writes (Jer. 29:8), Let not your diviners, that be in the midst of you, deceive you. And as God’s prophets, though at a distance from each other in place or time, yet preached the same truths, which was an evidence that they were guided by one and the same good Spirit, so the false prophets prophesied the same lies, being actuated by one and the same spirit of error. There were little hopes of bringing them to repentance, they were so hardened in their sin; yet Ezekiel must prophesy against them, in hopes that the people might be cautioned not to hearken to them; and thus a testimony will be left upon record against them, and they will thereby be left inexcusable.
Ezekiel had express orders to prophesy against the prophets of Israel; so they called themselves, as if none but they had been worthy of the name of Israel’s prophets, who were indeed Israel’s deceivers. But it is observable that Israel was never imposed upon by pretenders to prophecy till after they had rejected and abused the true prophets; as, afterwards, they were never deluded by counterfeit messiahs till after they had refused the true Messiah and rejected him. These false prophets must be required to hear the word of the Lord. They took upon them to speak what concerned others as from God; let them now hear what concerned themselves as from him.

btw
where did you come up with the meanings of these verses? no commentary i read even comes close to what you say. since the word is of no private interpretation then believing you are the only one with understanding of this chapter is flawed.

God bless
If you actually knew your OT history you would be able to discern what that stand in the day of the LORD timing is about, and just the who the "house of Israel" was per Bible history, and who and where the majority of them are today. But since the majority of Churches today don't cover all The Bible anymore, it's understandable why you don't know.

Graceismine said:
Trekson said



Pre Wrath belief has certainly come into vogue lately with the leaving of Marvin Rosenthal from his love of the pre trib rapture.

I am unconvinced about Pre Wrath because of the complete ignoring of the Scripture which calls the wrath of God the wrath of Satan .

You say that you believe God's wrath begins at the opening of the seventh seal. The Bible says it begins with the first seal.

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

They see that the wrath has come and they acknowledge it. We are not appointed to wrath and I take that to mean any wrath to do with the Tribulation or to do with Hell.



I see it that the "great strife" was borne by Jesus at Calvary when the wrath of God was poured out upon Him. I cannot see why the church for whom He died would have to endure further wrath or testing.
The Pre-Wrath position is a modern invention, so is the Pre-Trib position too if one considers that it only began since the 1800's. This is why the Pre-Wrath rapture doctrine has so much alliance with ideas of the Pre-Trib rapture, because those like Rosenthal and et al came from the Pre-Trib schools.

Our Lord Jesus Christ directly stated that His return and our gathering is a after... the tribulation He taught per Matt.24, and that ought to be good enough for the true Christian believer. As one can easily see today with some simply denying that timing our Lord Jesus Himself gave, that's yet another proof of the existence of those "foolish prophets" of Ezekiel 13 which God told Ezekiel to speak against. There are many, many Scriptures in the Book of Ezekiel, and in all the OT prophets that have yet to be fulfilled today.
 

7angels

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veteran

you say i know very little about OT history. you maybe right that you are more knowledgeable then i am. but i only asked for where you got your sources from. i prefer to study the actual source over second hand knowledge. it is a proven fact that as information is passed from person to person that things get lost in the translation/explanation. so if you would like to convince me then please show me. if you cannot or won't then i have no choice but to think that you are mistaken in your thinking.

God bless