Why the cross actually saves

[SovereignGrace]

Apostle Paul so succinctly wrote this Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.[1 Corinthians 15:1-4]

We can see the gospel clearly expressed in these four vss. We can see the cross in this passage as Paul wrote that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures. It was even prophesied what type of death He would have when it was written Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.” And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.[Numbers 21:8-9] We can read of the "Suffering Servant" in Isaiah and know that His death was not any run-of-the-mill death, but a most gruesome death. We can also read And one will say to him, ‘What are these wounds between your arms?’ Then he will say, ‘Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.’[Zechariah 13:6] He was even betrayed by one He called 'friend'.[Matthew 26:50]

The reason why we speak of the cross is because the cross is where the payment for His sheep's sins were paid. Without an empty tomb, the cross is null and void. But without the cross, there is no empty tomb, either. We have to get the gospel right, because if we fail to get that right, the rest of our theology is off. That is why we need to see a Trinity in view in the scriptures. It took God to become a man to redeem us. If man could have redeemed us, the Christ wasted His time dying. If the Christ was this good moral man who later became the Messiah, then His sacrifice is useless as well. God could have done that with the likes of Aaron, Moses, David, Solomon, Samson, Eleazer, if that were the case. It took God to become a man to live a sinless, perfect life, live a life that fulfilled every requirement the Law demanded be lived. No created being could do this. It took God to come in the flesh.

Now focusing in on the cross. The cross was where our sin debt was paid in full. There is nothing we can add to this cross. It was God the Son being imputed His sheep's sins,[2 Corinthians 5:21] standing before His Father as our Sinbearer, taking God's wrath, dying our death, atoning for our sins, and raising from the tomb for our justification.[Romans 4:25]. This is a Triune God at work in man's redemption. The only thing His sheep brought to this was their sins that had been laid upon Him. God the Son took God the Father's wrath, so that God the Holy Spirit could now fully come unto the elect. If the cross was for everybody, and everybody was not saved, then the cross, in and of itself, did not save them. That is why we, the Calvinists, can proclaim a cross that has a 100% success rate. The cross was for His sheep, His life He lived and gave, was for His sheep, His resurrection was for His sheep, His intercession is for His sheep, and His second advent is for His sheep.

 

[SovereignGrace]

We can read the first prophecy "And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.”[Genesis 3:15] Clearly, there are two seeds mentioned here.



We can also see two separate ppl groups What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. As He says also in Hosea, “I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ‘MY PEOPLE,’ AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ‘BELOVED.’” “AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, ‘YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,’ THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD.”[Romans 9:22-26]



Then we can also see two separate ppl groups “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”[Matthew 25:31-46]

Here are three examples of where two entirely separate ppl groups are clearly seen. I can find no evidence where these two ppl groups ever mingled with each other. One is born either a seed of the woman or a seed of the serpent. One is born either a vessel of mercy or a vessel of wrath. One is born either a sheep or a goat. Nothing they can do change their state.

Here is where the cross shows its true power in the saving of His lost sheep. Nothing they could do to save themselves. Nothing they could do to gain His favor. Nothing they could do to earn His grace. He sent His Son to save them via this cross.

 

[Phoneman777]

It took God to become a man to redeem us. If man could have redeemed us, the Christ wasted His time dying. If the Christ was this good moral man who later became the Messiah, then His sacrifice is useless as well. God could have done that with the likes of Aaron, Moses, David, Solomon, Samson, Eleazer, if that were the case. It took God to become a man to live a sinless, perfect life, live a life that fulfilled every requirement the Law demanded be lived. No created being could do this. It took God to come in the flesh.

No doubt the reason why God incarnate alone qualifies as the only candidate to die for the sins of the world is because He was filled with the Holy Spirit since His conception and lived a perfect life through the power of that indwelt Holy Spirit. But the question is: did this initial filling of the incarnate Jesus with the Holy Spirit give Him an advantage over us in the fight to overcome sin? There are only two possible - yet unwelcome - answers to Calvinists and most everyone else:

1) The first answer most Christians want to be true, but if we're honest with ourselves, we know cannot be.
2) The second answer most Christians desperately do not want to be true.

If we answer "yes", we arm Satan with the most powerful argument that can be used in his campaign which began in heaven to represent God as unjust and unfair: "How can You demand they render the same perfect obedience to Your law - or die - as did Jesus when Jesus was empowered advantageously to do so while no one else was granted any such advantage?"

If we say "no", any and all excuses for our disobedience to God's law are swept away leaving sin exposed as a choice we make, not a condition from which we're helpless to escape.

The evidence proves we, too, have access to the same power that Jesus relied upon to live an obedient life, and therefore we have no "cloak for our sin". What say you?

 

[SovereignGrace]

No doubt the reason why God incarnate alone qualifies as the only candidate to die for the sins of the world is because He was filled with the Holy Spirit since His conception and lived a perfect life through the power of that indwelt Holy Spirit. But the question is: did this initial filling of the incarnate Jesus with the Holy Spirit give Him an advantage over us in the fight to overcome sin? There are only two possible - yet unwelcome - answers to Calvinists and most everyone else:

1) The first answer most Christians want to be true, but if we're honest with ourselves, we know cannot be.
2) The second answer most Christians desperately do not want to be true.

If we answer "yes", we arm Satan with the most powerful argument that can be used in his campaign which began in heaven to represent God as unjust and unfair: "How can You demand they render the same perfect obedience to Your law - or die - as did Jesus when Jesus was empowered advantageously to do so while no one else was granted any such advantage?"

If we say "no", any and all excuses for our disobedience to God's law are swept away leaving sin exposed as a choice we make, not a condition from which we're helpless to escape.

The evidence proves we, too, have access to the same power that Jesus relied upon to live an obedient life, and therefore we have no "cloak for our sin". What say you?

First off, thank you for your prompt response.

Would you please clarify this? I am unsure what it is you are exactly asking, so I can't give a response until I better understand your post. Thanks bushels.

 

[SovereignGrace]

No doubt the reason why God incarnate alone qualifies as the only candidate to die for the sins of the world is because He was filled with the Holy Spirit since His conception and lived a perfect life through the power of that indwelt Holy Spirit. But the question is: did this initial filling of the incarnate Jesus with the Holy Spirit give Him an advantage over us in the fight to overcome sin? There are only two possible - yet unwelcome - answers to Calvinists and most everyone else:

1) The first answer most Christians want to be true, but if we're honest with ourselves, we know cannot be.
2) The second answer most Christians desperately do not want to be true.

If we answer "yes", we arm Satan with the most powerful argument that can be used in his campaign which began in heaven to represent God as unjust and unfair: "How can You demand they render the same perfect obedience to Your law - or die - as did Jesus when Jesus was empowered advantageously to do so while no one else was granted any such advantage?"

If we say "no", any and all excuses for our disobedience to God's law are swept away leaving sin exposed as a choice we make, not a condition from which we're helpless to escape.

The evidence proves we, too, have access to the same power that Jesus relied upon to live an obedient life, and therefore we have no "cloak for our sin". What say you?

I will say that the Christ could, in no way, sin. I do not hold to the belief He could have sinned, yet chose not to.

 

[Phoneman777]

First off, thank you for your prompt response.

Would you please clarify this? I am unsure what it is you are exactly asking, so I can't give a response until I better understand your post. Thanks bushels.

I believe Scripture is clear Jesus had no such advantage over us in overcoming sin, and that the same power available to Him is available to us. That's not to say any one of us could have died for our own sin or the sins of the world - which blasphemy is taught by Luciferian secret societies like Freemasonry and prominent "evangelical" leaders like Kenneth Copeland - but that all God's biddings are enablings and if He says jump through the wall, my job is to jump and His job is to make a hole in it.

 

[Phoneman777]

I will say that the Christ could, in no way, sin. I do not hold to the belief He could have sinned, yet chose not to.

But isn't that the same thing as God demanding we who are riding tricycles keep up with Jesus Who's riding a ten speed, or die if we don't?

 

[justbyfaith]

Here is where the cross shows its true power in the saving of His lost sheep. Nothing they could do to save themselves. Nothing they could do to gain His favor. Nothing they could do to earn His grace. He sent His Son to save them via this cross.

So there is no need for the call to salvation, neither a response to the same...a person is saved from conception and does not need to be born again?

Because from my perspective, there is something that we do to enter into salvation:

Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[SovereignGrace]

But isn't that the same thing as God demanding we who are riding tricycles keep up with Jesus Who's riding a ten speed, or die if we don't?

I believe Scripture is clear Jesus had no such advantage over us in overcoming sin, and that the same power available to Him is available to us. That's not to say any one of us could have died for our own sin or the sins of the world - which blasphemy is taught by Luciferian secret societies like Freemasonry and prominent "evangelical" leaders like Kenneth Copeland - but that all God's biddings are enablings and if He says jump through the wall, my job is to jump and His job is to make a hole in it.

Do you believe the Christ could have sinned, but chose not to? At no time did He cease to be God. If He could have sinned in His flesh, He could sin in His deity, as His deity was fully intact whilst a man.

 

[SovereignGrace]

But isn't that the same thing as God demanding we who are riding tricycles keep up with Jesus Who's riding a ten speed, or die if we don't?

Just because the Christ could not sin did not make His temptations any less real. Read Matthew 4. They were very real to Him, yet He is God, even when tempted.

 

[Phoneman777]

Just because the Christ could not sin did not make His temptations any less real. Read Matthew 4. They were very real to Him, yet He is God, even when tempted.

They were so real, the agony He endured in resisting them caused Him to sweat blood and almost die, you can be sure.

It seems you believe God has sentenced us to death for failing to live up to the standard of perfection set by Jesus when all along, you claim, it was impossible for Jesus to achieve anything less than perfection.

Do you think that's fair of Him?

 

[Preacher4Truth]

They were so real, the agony He endured in resisting them caused Him to sweat blood and almost die, you can be sure.

It seems you believe God has sentenced us to death for failing to live up to the standard of perfection set by Jesus when all along, you claim, it was impossible for Jesus to achieve anything less than perfection.

Do you think that's fair of Him?

Wow...Romans 9:20. Must God bow to your ideology and logic? Since he does not, he's deemed "unfair" which is really saying he is "unjust."

 

[SovereignGrace]

They were so real, the agony He endured in resisting them caused Him to sweat blood and almost die, you can be sure.

It seems you believe God has sentenced us to death for failing to live up to the standard of perfection set by Jesus when all along, you claim, it was impossible for Jesus to achieve anything less than perfection.

Do you think that's fair of Him?

We can not live up to the standards God has established. That’s why the Christ had to come and live that sinless perfect life the Law required. All believers are imputed this and stand before the Father clothed in the Christ’s righteousness.

Also, God being fair is not treating everyone the same. If He’s truly fair, we’d all be in hell. Fairness is getting what we deserve(d).

 

[SovereignGrace]

Wow...Romans 9:20. Must God bow to your ideology and logic? Since he does not, he's deemed "unfair" which is really saying he is "unjust."

Sadly, many have taken that stance and seem immovable from it.

 

[Phoneman777]

Wow...Romans 9:20. Must God bow to your ideology and logic? Since he does not, he's deemed "unfair" which is really saying he is "unjust."

No, God can act with impunity against anyone and anything...except this: His own Self-proclaimed Divine attributes.

If He declares Himself just and fair, He will never act contrary to that, which means anyone who thinks God is fair and just in demanding we apart from Jesus live up to the standard of righteousness set by Jesus while equipping Jesus with advantages not available to us - and die for failing to achieve that standard - they really should pray about obtaining a clearer understanding about the character of God and His love for a fallen world.

 

[SovereignGrace]

No, God can act with impunity against anyone and anything...except this: His own Self-proclaimed Divine attributes.

If He declares Himself just and fair, He will never act contrary to that, which means anyone who thinks God is fair and just in demanding we apart from Jesus live up to the standard of righteousness set by Jesus while equipping Jesus with advantages not available to us - and die for failing to achieve that standard - they really should pray about obtaining a clearer understanding about the character of God and His love for a fallen world.

Fairness is getting what we deserve. If God withholds His grace from someone(something He has done and is doing and will do later up until the last day), that doesn’t make Him unfair. What you’re equating as unfairness is actually accusing Him of being unjust. What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be![Romans 9:14]

 

[Phoneman777]

Also, God being fair is not treating everyone the same. If He’s truly fair, we’d all be in hell. Fairness is getting what we deserve(d).

I'm not talking about fairness in the sentencing of convicts, but behavioral expectations preceding actions that will eventually be judged.

God demanding we "walk even as He walked" and giving Jesus a nice smooth path before Him while we are forced to tread barefoot on fiery coals ain't my idea of fairness at all.

 

[SovereignGrace]

With the cross of the Christ brought it propitiation. It means atoning sacrifice(NIV) and it appeases God’s wrath for sin. Here is where we need to lock in with a laser like focus. If the cross of the Christ was for everyone, then God’s wrath for everyone’s sins has been appeased. In other words, there is no more of God’s wrath. Read in Revelation and you’ll see that’s not the case whatsoever. So, the cross of the Christ was for His sheep.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I'm not talking about fairness in the sentencing of convicts, but behavioral expectations preceding actions that will eventually be judged.

God demanding we "walk even as He walked" and giving Jesus a nice smooth path before Him while we are forced to tread barefoot on fiery coals ain't my idea of fairness at all.

You are thinking God commanding us to do what we can’t do as Him being unfair. Israel was given the Law, were commanded to keep it, and were punished when they didn’t obey it. That’s not God being unfair...that’s Him pointing them to not relying upon themselves but on Him.

Also we are told to be as holy as He is, and that’s not a suggestion but a command. God’s not unjust or unfair to require us to do what we can not do ourselves. It points us to Him.

Now, let’s focus on the cross, and not derail the thread, please.

 

[Phoneman777]

You are thinking God commanding us to do what we can’t do as Him being unfair.

Wrong, I'm saying it is unfair for God to hold up Jesus as our example of how to keep from sinning when, as you claim, He was incapable of sinning - an example that is anything becoming of a "just" God, but we can leave this for a later discussion if you wish.