Why the fall had to occur

[Dcopymope]

So why did the temptation of Adam and Eve have to happen? I have been asked this question plenty of times before by both unbelievers and believers alike, and was never able to give an answer for it. But it wasn't until Aspen asked the same type of questions in the link below that it suddenly clicked in me, just hit me like a ton of bricks.

Link: Pope wants to change the Lord's Prayer

Link: Pope wants to change the Lord's Prayer

The question often varies from one person to another. Some may ask why God put the tree in the garden if he didn't want them eating from it in the first place. Others may ask why God allows suffering to occur if he is such a gentle spirit, and if the suffering of this current world will pass away and not even cross our mind as Isaiah stated, then what was the point in God sending us through the tribulations of this current world in the first place?

(Isaiah 65:14-19) "Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit. {15} And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name: {16} That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes. {17} ¶ For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. {18} But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. {19} And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying."

I answer these questions in a way that I have yet to see being answered anywhere else, and made a six minute YouTube video about it just for the hell of it. They are the types of questions most Christians have a hard time answering. I've given the same answer to unbelievers and they seem to be receiving it pretty well, more or less, so the way I see it, this is the only way you can answer it.

 

[bbyrd009]

ok, no one is called to prove God to anyone else, imo this is false, and it is not what "witnessing" means.
It ignores who a person's enemies are according to the Book, and intimates that God can be known by logic and common sense.
wadr

 

[bbyrd009]

"if the answer does not include the following, it is not a real answer" pls already
that is strictly your metric, and does not line up with the Book either, at least that i am aware of, you gotta Quote?

 

[Dcopymope]

ok, no one is called to prove God to anyone else, imo this is false, and it is not what "witnessing" means.
It ignores who a person's enemies are according to the Book, and intimates that God can be known by logic and common sense.
wadr

Yes, God can be known by logic and common sense, for one, by the things that are made, that's why Paul stated that no one is without excuse and will face judgement. When you claim to believe in God, its not just with your heart and soul, but also with your mind, with every fiber of your being. God being the creator makes him the author of logic. Therefore, if you come to me with a response that sounds illogical or moronic, then I have every reason to dismiss it from the jump, even as a believer. If you go around unbelievers claiming to "know God", or to have been "caught up in the spirit", or talked with God, then you are leaving the atheist with the impression that you can answer the harder questions pertaining to the faith you proclaim to have. If you boast about knowing God, or being led by the holy spirit, or to have "received revelation", and you can't answer their questions, you are making God look like a joke, its as simple as that. To clarify, I never claim to "know God" like many will claim on a daily basis, I can only claim to know of him.

ya, "if the answer does not include the following, it is not a real answer" pls already

Please what?

 

[bbyrd009]

Please what?

...that is strictly your metric, and does not line up with the Book either, at least that i am aware of, you gotta Quote?

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, God can be known by logic and common sense

if you post a Quote for this too, we might proceed i guess

 

[Dcopymope]

if you post a Quote for this too, we might proceed i guess

Sure, Romans 12:2 is one prime example. Be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal your mind, the brain that God gave you to function, so that you can prove, not only to yourself for edification but also to others the perfect will of God. If you can't do this, if your 'transformation' doesn't include your ability to put two and two together and come to a logical conclusion, then your alleged transformation is no real transformation at all. Don't be surprised if you can't answer the tough perfectly reasonable questions pertaining to your faith, despite you allegedly "knowing God", making the faith look like a bunch of foolishness.

 

[Stranger]

The fall was necessary because God wanted sons, those literally born of Him, and not just another another group of created beings such as angels.

This was possible only through the death, burial, resurrection, of Jesus Christ and the imputation activity of God. (John 12:24)

Stranger

 

[Dcopymope]

The fall was necessary because God wanted sons, those literally born of Him, and not just another another group of created beings such as angels.

This was possible only through the death, burial, resurrection, of Jesus Christ and the imputation activity of God. (John 12:24)

Stranger

This is one typical response Christians give as to why he allowed the fall to happen. God wants a relationship with us that is unique from that of angels, as if to assume that it wasn't unique to start with. For a believer, this might answer the question, but for an unbeliever, especially of the more atheist variety, its not going to be a good enough answer, because they will come with about as many different counter arguments as you can count. They will, for instance, say that if God allowed it to happen because he wanted some sort of "unique" relatioship with us, then I, as a fallen being should not have to face judgement and suffer eternity in the fire for something God wanted in the first place. This is a perfectly reasonable response, at which even I can respond with scripture.

If God actually wanted it to happen, then that contradicts scripture plainly stating that it was never his wish that any should perish. If us perishing is not what he ever wanted, then that means he never wanted the fall to occur to begin with. However, if the world was already condemned for its sins before he even laid the foundations of the earth, then that puts everything I've been saying into proper perspective. It answers all of their questions that revolve not only around Adam and Eves temptation, but also to Satan's fall into iniquity as the anointed Cherub, the first sinner to ever exist in heaven or earth. The fall was not necessary, but the atonement absolutely was necessary, because the condemnation, the throne judgement was inevitable, and it was inevitable because the fall was happening no matter what, tree or no tree, Jesus or no Jesus, just like it happened in heaven.

 

[bbyrd009]

Sure, Romans 12:2 is one prime example. Be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal your mind, the brain that God gave you to function, so that you can prove, not only to yourself for edification but also to others the perfect will of God. If you can't do this, if your 'transformation' doesn't include your ability to put two and two together and come to a logical conclusion, then your alleged transformation is no real transformation at all. Don't be surprised if you can't answer the tough perfectly reasonable questions pertaining to your faith, despite you allegedly "knowing God", making the faith look like a bunch of foolishness.

then let's just skip to the premise here, and confront why you cannot prove God in a court of law, as you infer

and a Quote for this "Fall" that men/you suggest would be nice too i guess

 

[Dcopymope]

then let's just skip to the premise here, and confront why you cannot prove God in a court of law, as you infer

If you want to talk about "proof" of God, then there are other threads concerning that subject. This thread concerns the most often asked question concerning your faith, and giving a real answer for them. When an atheist asks them, they aren't asking for "proof" of God, they want you to give them a reason to not see God to be nothing more than some inept despot, because the typical answers given makes God out to be exactly that, and it does not sit well with me at all.

and a Quote for this "Fall" that men/you suggest would be nice too i guess

The word fall is used many times referring to being led into temptation to sin. Paul uses the word fall in various ways referring to the same thing. The fall, the temptation into sin is what happened in the garden, which is what I mean by the fall, so you can leave the word games to other threads.

(1 Timothy 6:7-10) "For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. {8} And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. {9} But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. {10} For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows."

(1 Timothy 3:4-7) "One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; {5} (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) {6} Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. {7} Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil."

(1 Corinthians 10:11-13) "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. {12} Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. {13} There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

 

[bbyrd009]

When an atheist asks them, they aren't asking for "proof" of God, they want you to give them a reason to not see God to be nothing more than some inept despot, because the typical answers given makes God out to be exactly that, and it does not sit well with me at all.

well, i doubt that atheists ask those Qs other than from the perspective of a lawyer, iow they are not asking to learn, but to corner someone, at least generally speaking. But i wish you all the luck in the world ok, if that is your calling.

i agree that the typical answers there @ "God" are retarded, the typical perspective of Job is evidence of this imo, and there are other perspectives, "Who told you that you were naked?" etc, to argue that point from, wherein you might notice what you really seek, that being that the Strangers and BoLs of the world got nothing to say outside some snarky remarks that don't go anywhere, and they disappear when it comes time to reflect upon Job's confessions, bc that does not fit with their Angry God, i guess.

but understand you are attacking most believers' premises, who have accepted an altar works/reward scenario, and look forward to their "reward," see, The Big Party in the Sky After Death that everyone has made up their minds about. So i dunno how you treat that in ministering to Atheists, seems like it would come up pretty quick, and for all i know your parameters might be great for them, but i don't see how you can deny that you are essentially stating that God can be proven out of one side, and denying it out the other, wadr

 

[bbyrd009]

The word fall is used many times referring to being led into temptation to sin. Paul uses the word fall in various ways referring to the same thing. The fall, the temptation into sin is what happened in the garden, which is what I mean by the fall, so you can leave the word games to other threads.

the little falls are apparent, it is this Big Fall that i cannot find anywhere, the one in your thread title; only Christians believe this as near as i can tell. Jews don't refer to it at all?

 

[Dcopymope]

well, i doubt that atheists ask those Qs other than from the perspective of a lawyer, iow they are not asking to learn, but to corner someone, at least generally speaking. But i wish you all the luck in the world ok, if that is your calling.

If they believe they can corner you with it, its only because all they have been given by the vast overwhelming majority of Christians are the typical half-baked answers in kind.

i agree that the typical answers there @ "God" are retarded, the typical perspective of Job is evidence of this imo, and there are other perspectives, "Who told you that you were naked?" etc, to argue that point from, wherein you might notice what you really seek, that being that the Strangers and BoLs of the world got nothing to say outside some snarky remarks that don't go anywhere, and they disappear when it comes time to reflect upon Job's confessions, bc that does not fit with their Angry God, i guess.

I find that whenever someone can't answer their questions, they, along with the snarky remarks will also just brush you off and tell you to "find God", or "go ask God". Now, if I really wanted to be 'that Christian' who claims "know God", if I can't answer the freaking question, then I would be honest with them, and tell them that I will have to pray over it and wait for God to give me an answer, but no, you see, instead, what you see from most Christian's is what you always get, the snarky, half baked remarks, and it is not at all attractive to watch happen.

but understand you are attacking most believers' premises, who have accepted an altar works/reward scenario, and look forward to their "reward," see, The Big Party in the Sky After Death that everyone has made up their minds about. So i dunno how you treat that in ministering to Atheists, seems like it would come up pretty quick, and for all i know your parameters might be great for them, but i don't see how you can deny that you are essentially stating that God can be proven out of one side, and denying it out the other, wadr

When most Christians speak of "rewards" they believe they will get, they can't do it without grossly misquoting scripture. They often frame this as if some will get more brownie points than others, according to their works. Scripture speaks nothing of the kind, all believers will be rewarded equally, not according to their own works, but according to the finished work on the cross. I think this is strictly a pride thing, they can't wait to boast about having more bling than others......

......HA!!!!

the little falls are apparent, it is this Big Fall that i cannot find anywhere, the one in your thread title; only Christians believe this as near as i can tell. Jews don't refer to it at all?

Well, Paul was a Jew as well, and by his own words, still considered himself a Jew even after his encounter with Jesus, who himself was also a Jew. The word "fall" doesn't always have to be spoken, the sentiment is exactly the same, for just as Adam sinned, so to have all sinned.

(Romans 11:1-2) "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. {2} God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

 

[Dcopymope]

This video along with my own gives a more complete explanation of the subject of atonement in relation to the temptation in Eden. The video states that:

"If Gods going to rid the world of evil, he'll have to get rid of us."

Exactly, not get rid of the tree that brought about the knowledge of evil, but instead get rid of us. The tree is not important, because God knew that evil itself, or the disease of sin was going to crop up within humanity sooner or later, whether there was a tree or not just like it did within Satan. This is what people need to understand concerning the need for a savior, his atonement is more profound than people realize it is. Sin is the ever present disease, and Jesus is the ever present, ever lasting remedy.

 

[Stranger]

This is one typical response Christians give as to why he allowed the fall to happen. God wants a relationship with us that is unique from that of angels, as if to assume that it wasn't unique to start with. For a believer, this might answer the question, but for an unbeliever, especially of the more atheist variety, its not going to be a good enough answer, because they will come with about as many different counter arguments as you can count. They will, for instance, say that if God allowed it to happen because he wanted some sort of "unique" relatioship with us, then I, as a fallen being should not have to face judgement and suffer eternity in the fire for something God wanted in the first place. This is a perfectly reasonable response, at which even I can respond with scripture.

If God actually wanted it to happen, then that contradicts scripture plainly stating that it was never his wish that any should perish. If us perishing is not what he ever wanted, then that means he never wanted the fall to occur to begin with. However, if the world was already condemned for its sins before he even laid the foundations of the earth, then that puts everything I've been saying into proper perspective. It answers all of their questions that revolve not only around Adam and Eves temptation, but also to Satan's fall into iniquity as the anointed Cherub, the first sinner to ever exist in heaven or earth. The fall was not necessary, but the atonement absolutely was necessary, because the condemnation, the throne judgement was inevitable, and it was inevitable because the fall was happening no matter what, tree or no tree, Jesus or no Jesus, just like it happened in heaven.

I don't care what the unbeliever doesn't believe. What he doesn't believe doesn't affect what I believe. And I am not worried about satisfying any atheists. You don't try and satisfy an atheist. You simply tell them what you know to be true.

The argument that the fallen should not have to face judgement because the fall was part of God's plan is empty. The atonement was provided for everyone of Adam's race. Thus, if they reject that, don't blame God.

It was God's will to have man fall. It was God's will to provide for man the atonement. Because it is not God's will that any should perish, He provided for all. But all don't want God.

Stranger

 

[Dcopymope]

I don't care what the unbeliever doesn't believe. What he doesn't believe doesn't affect what I believe. And I am not worried about satisfying any atheists. You don't try and satisfy an atheist. You simply tell them what you know to be true.

The argument that the fallen should not have to face judgement because the fall was part of God's plan is empty. The atonement was provided for everyone of Adam's race. Thus, if they reject that, don't blame God.

It was God's will to have man fall. It was God's will to provide for man the atonement. Because it is not God's will that any should perish, He provided for all. But all don't want God.

Stranger

You see how you just contradicted yourself in the same sentence? It is Gods will that man shall fall...........BUT...........it is not his will that any should perish........???? ....You can't have it both ways, either it was God's will that man shall fall, and henceforth perish in the fire along with Satan and his angels, or it is not. If I was an atheist, I would just brush you and your faith off as double minded garbage and move on in life.

 

[Stranger]

You see how you just contradicted yourself in the same sentence? It is Gods will that man shall fall...........BUT...........it is not his will that any should perish........???? ....You can't have it both ways, either it was God's will that man shall fall, and henceforth perish in the fire along with Satan and his angels, or it is not. If I was an atheist, I would just brush you and your faith off as double minded garbage and move on in life.

There is no contradiction. It was God's will that man should fall. Because of that He provided the way of salvation for all. Thus it is His will that all would come to Jesus Christ and not perish. But they don't. Nothing wrong with the will of God.

Again, who cares what the atheist thinks. He doesn't believe anything you say anyway.

Stranger

 

[Dcopymope]

There is no contradiction. It was God's will that man should fall. Because of that He provided the way of salvation for all. Thus it is His will that all would come to Jesus Christ and not perish. But they don't. Nothing wrong with the will of God.

Yes, I want you to fall into sin..........but here let me make a way out of judgement for you through my son, because I really don't want you to perish......even though I already knew who would and wouldn't from the beginning......I guess the fire was your only destination from the start....oops.....too bad for you.............

Again, who cares what the atheist thinks. He doesn't believe anything you say anyway.

I don't care what they think when it comes down to it, that is Gods job to care, not mine. But if one were to ask me legitimate, reasonable questions, then I am going to give them reasonable answers, which doesn't involve your double minded responses. Using your argument hasn't worked out for me and many others at all, so I flush it down the toilet where it belongs and give real clear cut answers.

 

[bbyrd009]

If they believe they can corner you with it, its only because all they have been given by the vast overwhelming majority of Christians are the typical half-baked answers in kind.

ah, sure, don't blame them lol. I quit talking about Jesus entirely about ten years ago--when i realized that i had a bad def of "witness," that "witness" had been turned into "affront," as my last interaction with Marymog makes pretty clear, i guess--and fwiw i gotta tell ya, that was when i started seriously planting seeds and watering.

i don't say "witnessing" there bc i know who i am required to witness to, witnessing is hardly ever pleasant, of course, witnesses get cross examined, witnesses must state the unpopular truth in the face of opposition by those perceived to be enemies, etc etc.

So anyway, it is when i gave up doing what i thought God wanted, that i started doing what God wanted, at least in that area imo, and the fruit has confirmed this for me, over and over. Ppl ask me if i am "a Christian or something" now, and just going about quietly hating my life brings Atheists to me now. i guess it's diff for everyone, and we all have a somewhat diff calling, but fwiw i recommend a little mystery there, something i learned...no, it was a revelation too, lol, it was revealed to me, that the best way to sell something was to tell the ppl they prolly couldn't qualify for it, or make it unavailable some other kind of way?