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Why you as a Christian are as sinless as God is Holy....

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Kidron, Aug 13, 2012.

  1. Kidron

    Kidron New Member

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    1.) The reason you as a believer, are as righteous as God himself= right this very second..... is because you have been given by gift the very righteousness of God himself by God.
    [font=lucida sans unicode']This is the "imputed righteousness" of God that has become yours for all eternity.[/font]
    [font=lucida sans unicode']When you trusted Christ, you became the complete righteousness of Christ and Christ became your entire sin as well as the eternal payment for all of your sins...[/font][font=lucida sans unicode']2nd Corinthians 5:21[/font]


    2.) So, what has happened to your sins?.
    Well 2 things.....first , Christ paid for them all....So, God does not ever again hold them against you...no matter what...no matter how many.......and the reason is.....= Christ has completely paid for them all.
    [font=lucida sans unicode']And something else....The basis to hold you accountable for your sin is that the Law was in effect which you were under before you were saved.....However, after you are saved you are no longer under the law, so it cant be held against you.[/font]
    [font=lucida sans unicode']And why are you not under the Law after you are born again?.......Its because the law has been abolished by the payment Christ made on the Cross....2nd Corinthians 3:6-13.....and Ephesians 2:15[/font]


    Now, let me show you the case, the specific situation that applies to any of you who think you have to keep the 10 commandments, ETC, so that you are "kept saved"...
    [font=lucida sans unicode']Go to Romans 9:30-32 and read it.[/font]
    [font=lucida sans unicode']It will show you the clear and current distinction between a Christian and a Jew, and you will discover, many of you, that you are making the exact same theological error in your head and heart that the unsaved Jew makes every single day, and because of it, they are not "SAVED".[/font]
    [font=lucida sans unicode']Many of you, tho you profess you are a believer, are exactly of the same mind and heart and position as those unsaved Jews.[/font]
    [font=lucida sans unicode']Romans 9:30-32[/font]


    [font=lucida sans unicode']So, how is it that you are right now as sinless and as holy as God himself?[/font]
    [font=lucida sans unicode']First, its because the Law is gone, so the basis for holding you accountable is removed, and your bible says...."where there is NO LAW, there is no transgression".....Romans 4:15 and....2nd Corinthians 3:11[/font]

    [font=lucida sans unicode']2nd, All your sins that were based on the Law are now laid on Christ who has redeemed you from the law, and pardoned you for them all.....Romans 7:4,6[/font]

    [font=lucida sans unicode']3rd.., Now that those 2 changes have been made based on what Christ did on the Cross......God gives you his "gift of righteousness"...Romans 5:17..... and NEVER EVER again holds you accountable for your "sin" ........[/font][font=lucida sans unicode']Romans 4:6,7[/font]




    K
     
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  2. haz

    haz New Member

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    AMEN !

    The thief on the cross who called Jesus 'Lord' is a good example.

    That day he was saved, righteous, holy (Rom 11:16), sanctified (Heb 10:10), perfected (Heb 10:14) and without sin (1John 3:9, 1Pet 4:1).
    And that without any physical proof of perfect lifestyle, as some here demand in their doctrines of works.
     
  3. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    This thread is unbelievable....literally UN-believable. :wacko:

    Welcome to fantasy island!!!! :lol:

    I think the OP is a joke on the people here...It is playing "the opposite game"

    You cannot possibly get further away from the truth. So there is real value in what we are to avoid in it...

    I wonder who will fall for the ploy...it is brilliant! I thought of doing something like this. Write a post that says everything exactly backwards in order to illustrate the opposite by a counter-distinction.
     
  4. biggandyy

    biggandyy I am here to help...

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    This heresy was condemned way back in the year 529 by the The Canons of the Council of Orange.
     
  5. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    This thread is being reopened; there was a mistake made. I apologize for the inconvenience.
     
  6. goodshepard55

    goodshepard55 New Member

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    Good topic and thanks for posting such an interesting OP Kidron...Great use of scripture to back up your statements....
     
  7. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    It is not by our own self trust in Christ....but by the receiving of the new nature and dying to the old that we become the righteousness of God in Christ. When we walk as Jesus did then we are an example of the righteousness of God. No pretending...

    Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    We fulfill the law of God by being in the law of Christ. We don't circumvent it.




    We are forgiven for past sins and then empowered to no longer sin. Grace is not a covering for the sinful nature. The law has not been abolished...rather it is fulfilled IN US who walk according to the Spirit.

    om 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.




    How can we be transgressors of a law that has been abolished?

    Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
    Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
    Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.


    We don't live unto God by sinning.




    This is false. We are held completely accountable and responsible by the Holy Spirit!!! Even more so now that we have received the means to obey the Lord. To whom much is given MORE is required (not less as the OP suggests)

    Luk_12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.




    This is the trickery of men at work here. We are not given the right to sin at will. Only the past sins are forgiven. THOSE sins are gone forever. But this does not mean we have an open clause to have all future sins also done away with.

    If I have my debts paid by a benefactor...this does not mean I can spend on my account and have this benefactor constantly on the hook for my fancies.

    The OP is exactly contrary to the truth. Heresies must exist so that we can reject them and cleave to the truth.

    Mat_5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    The OP makes Jesus a liar. But we know Jesus is not a liar. The OP is full of lies.
     
  8. Axehead

    Axehead New Member

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    The Law is fulfilled for those that walk in Christ and remain in grace. Those that are in Christ are obeying Him, and walking in love and the Law is fulfilled and God's "hedge" of protection is up in their life. Jesus says, to abide in Him.

    If you begin to walk in the flesh you will eventually be corrected by the Lord and if you persist (not regarding God's mercy) you will come face to face with the law and the curses of the law, because you have become a law breaker.

    Have you ever heard of any law that has no penalty? Tell me one law that has no penalty. It is the nature of laws to have a penalty. Remember, Jesus said the Law has not passed away. But you were released from the law by your passing away, by your death in Christ to live for Christ. This gives you the right to become a son of God. However, you have the choice whether you want to revive that old man or not and walk in the flesh (and be a law-breaker).

    Laws have teeth. There is no such thing as a law without a penalty, so remain in Him, walk in Him, and God's hedge of protection will be yours. This is what the Church is missing today and why the Church has failed to fulfill God's Law and why the powers of darkness are in the Church so that it does not look any different than the world. The Church has been sold a bill of goods of False Security and False Assurance and brought themselves back under the curses of the law and they are calling it a blessing. They are calling their "trials" blessings when they are actually being chastised by the Lord (attacked by the Powers of Darkness) but they don't recognize it because they don't believe the Lord chastises and they believe the False Gospel of Grace provides them protection from their own rebellion, protection as LAW-BREAKERS. Have you ever heard of such a thing in the Bible, OT or NT? God has not changed.

    This is how the Powers of Darkness have flooded into the Church. Men have lost the fear of God, because, frankly their man-made doctrines says there is nothing to be afraid of anymore. if you "just believe", then you get to be a "King's Kid" (more like a spoiled brat). So men have been given a False Assurance that promotes a license for sin and rebellion. Men have lost any sense of identifying with Jesus Christ for a hatred of sin, and the absolute need to be holy and walk in righteousness.

    This is why we are sounding an alarm. Because many are being destroyed and thinking they are being saved. From the OT to the NT, God has not changed. The only thing that has changed is the Temple and the Sacrifice. We are His temple and He is our sacrifice. The requirements for holiness and righteousness are still there and because we have the Holy Spirit the standard is higher for us. Now, God can actually command us to cease from sin (and He expects us to), but we have created doctrines to nullify His commands.

    Whom a Father loves He chastens. Will it lead to the "peaceable fruit of righteousness" in your life or not? It's your choice!

    Axehead
     
  9. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    -- As far as "Only the past sins are forgiven," that is true at the time you give your life to Christ.
    You are absolutely correct that Christ's blood, grace, and forgiveness does not give you a blank check to sin from that point, but ALL Christians sin.

    Paul himself said, "The very things I hate I end up doing. The things I want to do I just don't do."
    As long as you are doing your very best not to sin, if/when you do fall, you will be just as forgiven as when all your previous sins were forgiven when you first got saved.

    Those that sin knowing that all they have to do is come to God and seek forgiveness are in for a surprise if they keep doing it.
    They will sew what they reap. If they eventually come to the point where they realize they are doing that and ask God with all sincerity for forgiveness, He will forgive them. But that doesn't mean there won't be a worldly cost for the sins they chose to commit as Christians.
     
  10. Axehead

    Axehead New Member

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    And we should come quickly to repent and receive forgiveness. I think you meant they will "reap what they sow". Yes, that Law still has penalties, today.



    Galatians 6:7

    King James Version (KJV)


    [font=Charis SIL'][sup]7 [/sup]Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. <--- This is NT - Can you believe God would mix this verse in with the Gospel of Grace? [​IMG][/font]
     
  11. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Hi all,

    First, to Axehead, I'd like to expand a tiny bit on

    As you have stated, this is because those who are baptised into His death in reality, are given the Holy Spirit to enable them to obey Him.

    The difference between this situation and obeying the Mosaic Law is, that within the Mosaic Law there were two major assumptions which no-one on CyB seems to know, remember, or incorporate to their thinking.

    The first is, that the Mosaic Law was a system of dos and don'ts, the failure to keep any of which were provided for by punishments. Some of these punishments were survivable (bring the correct sacrifice, go through the precise ritual for cleansing or purification, wait the correct number of days, and so on), but some of the punishments were not survivable because the penalty was death - - - lawful killing of the perpetrator(s) of the sin/crime.

    The second is, that it was possible to keep the Mosaic Law perfectly. Philippians 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. Do you see Paul is not saying he never sinned? He is saying he never committed a sin which bore the penalty of death for it. His 'righteousness' had nothing to do with being free from the power of sin. On the contrary, the Mosaic Law made him conscious of his sinfulness - but within the law there was a remedy for having sinned. This remedy did not attempt to correct the reason for the sins.
     
  12. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    -- lol you are of course correct. Jet lag and a lack of caffeine does terrible things...
     
  13. Axehead

    Axehead New Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  14. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Hi Kidron,

    It seems to me that although you base your gospel on some of the truths in the New Testament, the way you offer the application of these truths strays from the great spiritual safety available through confining our understanding and preaching, to the New Testament's explanations. This includes repenting when when necessary, and seeking forgiveness from both God and man.

    The spirit of this is no different from the Old Covenant. Sacrifices were brought in respect of individual sins as they happened. The major difference in the New Covenant is that all our sins up to the date we first believed in Christ for salvation, are cleansed from our souls.

    They are no longer merely 'covered' (hidden from God's sight) by the blood of animals (Heb 10:4). This huge difference has to be respected fully; and if a Christian sins, he is intended to experience heartfelt repentance, especially when he remembers the great cost to His Lord and Master Jesus Christ through whom he first found redemption. He is not automatically forgiven. The New Testament does not make this claim. He has to go through the same steps as he did at first, to be forgiven and restored back to fellowship with God. Paul makes the observation: 2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. I believe Paul is talking about a permanent change of heart toward a particular sin, which occurs through a fresh spiritual transaction with God at the time of repenting. If this did not happen with regard to the believer's attitude towards sin in general, at the time of his conversion to Christ, it does need to happen afterwards. All provision for abiding in Christ is appropriated as it becomes relevant.

    The way you are mixing the eternal truths which stand independently of a person's response to God in light of them, and, the condition of a person who has once come to Christ for salvation, gives rise to a wrong attitude to sin, and, a wrong attitude to the blood of the everlasting covenant.

    That your gospel does not touch on the power over sin which comes through being baptised into Christ's death, and the receiving of the Holy Spirit to live and walk in that power, may indicate that you yourself have been a victim of the preaching of a false gospel - at least in respect to those points in which your proclamation of it, fails to comply with the New Covenant teaching of the apostles.

    Lastly, your use of Romans 4:15, which solely applies to the time before the Mosaic Law was ever given, is unsound, because there are at least six other laws mentioned in the New Testament which are relevant to our eternal salvation.
     
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  15. Kidron

    Kidron New Member

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    Yes, amen !!!!

    Salvation for the death bed converted such as the thief on the cross, or Salvation for the 8 year old in a local church, is a wonderful thing.
    This is riches found in GRACE., as God's unconditional pardon does not care about when or where, it only cares about being free

    "all who call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved".

    And who is "all"?
    Is it the person who was "christened" at 9 months? = nope
    the "All" is whomever will take the FREE GIFT of RIGHTEOUSNESS and RECEIVE IT BY FAITH.
    That is the "all", that is the "whomever will".
    Those are the "children of Abraham" who like him are justified by faith alone...Romans 4:3,12



    K

    My thread exactly states the Christ revealed to > Pauline theological position< regarding the basis for.... "justification by faith alone".
    Have i ever met a single Catholic that agrees with it or accepts it or does not try to openly deny it?.....= Not Yet.
    Episkopos, If you think its "backwards"< then let this be a mirror for your Grace denying theology, which is obviously right out of Galatian 1:6,7 as i suspected.
    You, Episkopos, based on what you have stated, are Romans 9:32 in a nutshell .



    K
     
  16. mark s

    mark s New Member

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    The sins you may commit tomorrow . . . or next week . . . or next month . . . or next year . . . when were they paid for?

    And what is the meaning of:

    Romans 5:7-10 ESV
    (7) For one will scarcely die for a righteous person--though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die--
    (8) but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
    (9) Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
    (10) For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

    Love in Christ,
    Mark
     
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  17. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Hi Mark,

    The scripture which you posted indicates that the spiritual consequences of our sins were paid for when Christ died on the cross and rose again, (two thousand years ago) but we cannot assume we are saved purely on the basis of being aware of that information.

    There is a need for each person who wishes to avail themselves of the salvation offered through faith in Jesus Christ, to turn away from sin with their whole heart - and seek His forgiveness. The transaction which takes place between that person and the Lord, is the point at which - if they have received His acceptance - they may begin to consider themselves being 'saved' - that is, being saved from the wrath of God which they would have had to face for their unrepented and unforgiven sins.

    So... we know when the sin in the world was destroyed (on the cross), but until it is made personal to an individual by their believing into Christ, and receiving power to walk free from the sin, it's a mixed bag whether they have meaningful victory over sin or not. I think it very much depends on the renewing of their mind, as well. The spiritual consequences of disregarding the immediacy of God's truth from His point of view, is that He will bring greater and greater pressure to bear in an attempt to cause a person to acknowledge Him appropriately. It's all very well thinking 'now I'm in God's family, I'm 'safe'', but God really does expect us to behave like a family member, remembering whose child we have become.

    If a believer commits a sin - whether knowingly at the time or it is brought to their attention afterwards somehow - they should still approach God with a repentant heart to receive forgiveness for that sin. It is not a 'done deal' between the believer and God until their status of having been washed in His blood, has been renewed.

    The other thing which is not being discussed in all these threads (where it's being put forward that neither the number of sins, nor the seriousness of sins make any difference to our standing with God), is the consequence of sin in a believer's life. God can remove the penalty, but He is unlikely to (be able to) remove (all) the consequences.

    Usually, it is not possible for a sin to impact only the person committing it, and therefore the believer will have to live through the fallout from their attitudes and behaviours, as well as God's dealings. One question arises from this fact, namely, how do the consequences of sin glorify God? Only as they have a favourable impact on the one who committed the sin. The intelligent approach to predictable temptation and sin, is, avoidance and abstinence.


    It's a bit of a dead giveaway for there to be so many threads on sins and sinning - especially the threads which say it's okay to sin and God doesn't need your repentance and we don't need His further forgiveness when we sin because He already paid for us; because even in the world of banking, a person takes out the maximum they think they need the first time they have access to the capital, and they genuinely don't expect to have to keep going back. But, if they run out of finances, they have no choice but to go back.

    It's the same with our approach to God the first time - we ask Him to pay the whole debt of which we are aware. But, if we find ourselves in debt again, we have to go back, cap in hand, humbly to ask for more. 1 Peter 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
     
  18. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    This entire thread is a concoction of middle class Christendom. The idea is more ownership. Now that you have that wife (or husband), that job, that car, that house, that dog, that boat...you can have that Jesus too!!!!

    It is a completely unsanctified grasp at the promises of "pleasure verses". As I have said repeatedly, it is the carnal nature seeking to play masquerade with the promises of God.
     
  19. Kidron

    Kidron New Member

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    "Heresy"???????
    And your proof is to use the doctrines of a "Church" whose Priests cant marry, and this is a "doctrine of devils" according to 1st Timothy 4:1,3.
    Perhaps you can check and see if that verse is missing from the Catholic bible.
    No need to wonder why.

    "Heresy"??????, and this coming from a Church who has literally statuas exalted the mother of Jesus to wear the tite... "queen of Heaven", and has stated doctrinally that she is a 2nd mediator between God and man, EQUAL with Christ.


    "Heresy"??????? , and this coming from a Church that traduces "Justification by Faith" as taught by Paul and delivered by revelation of Christ and literally burned people at the stake who refused to renounce that "faith alone in Christ" was all that was necessary to be "saved" and "born again".

    "Heresy"??????, and this coming from the church who removed the 4th Commandment from their bible...."no graven images" while thickly decorating the Vatican and Catholic church walls everywhere with graven images of saints, Mary, and of course angels and Christ crucified...




    K


    Thank you.


    K


    Hey Shep,

    I like to let the Lord's light shine regarding the Salvation he died to freely give the world.
    I like to honor the Salvation that was bought and paid for by the blood of Jesus The Christ.
    The way i and all true believers do this best is by giving him ALL the credit for saving us, and keeping us saved..
    I would never presume to take any credit for the Grace of God that Christ alone shed his blood to give me.




    K

     
  20. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Heresy?! You mean the Church that assembled the Canon of the Book Protestants use (despite scriptural evidence) as their sole authority?

    Heresy?! You mean the Church that developed the doctrine of the Trinity to describe the true nature of God as revealed from the Bible and Tradition, which the Protestant church adopted during the Reformation??

    Heresy?! You mean the Church that developed the doctrine of the Incarnation that describes the true nature of Christ from the Bible and Tradition, which was adopted by the Reformers?

    Heresy?! You mean the Church that rightfully calls Mary, the Mother of God, 'blessed'; a belief shared by Luther and Calvin???

    Oh...you mean the Catholic Church!
     
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