will faith still be here?

[Randy Kluth]

A brother posted that he thinks most Christians will be killed off by the time of Antichrist's reign, whether by war, natural disasters, or persecution. I don't know what his position is on the timing of the Rapture of the Church.

I find that interesting not because I 100% agree with it, but because it allows me to improve my position somewhat. Of course, this is theoretical, because the future is hard to know with any precision.

I'm not Pretrib, so I don't accept that the international Church is removed from the earth during the last 3.5 years of the age. But I do agree that the vast majority of Christians will be gone by that time from other causes. As Christians become less and less popular with the waning of Christian civilization, there will be relatively few who will be raptured alive at the end of the age.

Think of Elijah who was raptured to heaven. He was only one person in Israel who went missing. Only a few missed him.

Similarly, at the end of the age there will be relatively few Christians among the nations, I think. And when Christ comes back, those few he takes up to heaven will hardly be missed!

Israel is the template for all this. It was the nation who developed the pattern that we now see among all Christian nations. The baton was passed from Israel to the Roman Empire--think: "the Kingdom will be taken from Israel and given to a nation worthy of it."

So just as Israel was worthy at one time, so in the present age many European nations have been worthy in the past. But as Israel fell away, so now many Christian nations are turning to apostasy.

And so, just like the multitudes initially followed Jesus and then turned away, learning how unpopular the cross was, so now the multitudes of Christians in Christian nations have now been turning away from Christianity due to its unpopularity in the world. And I do think the vast numbers of Christians are dwindling in our time.

Yes, many are Christian in name only, just as in Jesus' time, Jews were God's Chosen in name only. What we're seeing is a fulfillment, I think, of what Jesus said: "when the Son of Man comes will he find faith on the earth?"

What this means to me is that even though we're seeing the beginning of the end of Christian civilization in the present age, there are still way too many Christians for things to go completely south yet. There is still room for ministry.

And we should encourage one another to remain faithful as we see many fall away due to the unpopularity of the message of the cross. When the Rapture of the Church finally takes place at Christ's 2nd Coming, there will likely be relatively few Christians noticed who are "missing."

When Christ comes, the nations, including Israel, will show fear at the coming of the Son of Man in judgment from heaven. They will be ashamed of their ways, and will suffer great remorse for their hardness of hearts.

But Christ's Coming will open up the door for renewal in the world, both for Israel and for the nations. Christian Civilization will, I think, be restarted.

 

[Truth7t7]

.
But Christ's Coming will open up the door for renewal in the world, both for Israel and for the nations. Christian Civilization will, I think, be restarted.

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation?

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ?

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Randy Kluth]

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation?

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ?

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

You should know better than to think saying the world will be burned means there is no Millennium. Right after the Revelation indicates the Lord will come with judgment it tells us there will be a literal thousand year reign of Christ, together with his overcomers.

I realize that for most of Christian history there has been little emphasis on the idea of a literal thousand year reign of Christ. And yet, the Early Church believed it. It's just that the idea of a Millennial reign of Christ is blended with the notion of Israel's restoration. And after a few centuries the Church recognized that Israel continued to be lost, and seemed unlikely to ever be restored.

Consequently, the Church gave up on the idea of a literal Millennium. However, we see signs in our time of Israel's restoration. Clearly, the weeds will have to be pruned out in Israel before a full spiritual restoration can take place. But the same holds true of all of the Christian nations since Israel's fall. They have all fallen into apostasy, and merit judgment by fire.

How then can God's word be fulfilled which promised Abraham will have a special nation forever, along with a multitude of nations in his faith? Surely Christ will come back to complete God's word on the subject? If you don't think so, your position is duly noted.

 

[Truth7t7]

You should know better than to think saying the world will be burned means there is no Millennium. Right after the Revelation indicates the Lord will come with judgment it tells us there will be a literal thousand year reign of Christ, together with his overcomers.

I realize that for most of Chrisstian history there has been little emphasis on the idea of a literal thousand year reign of Christ. And yet, the Early Church believed it. It's just that the idea of a Millennial reign of Christ is blended with the notion of Israel's restoration. And after a few centuries the Church recognized that Israel continued to be lost, and seemed unlikely to ever be restored.

Consequently, the Church gave up on the idea of a literal Millennium. However, we see signs in our time of Israel's restoration. Clearly, the weeds will have to be pruned out in Israel before a full spiritual restoration can take place. But the same holds true of all of the Christian nations since Israel's fall. They have all fallen into apostasy, and merit judgment by fire.

How then can God's word be fulfilled which promised Abraham will have a special nation forever, along with a multitude of nations in his faith? Surely Christ will come back to complete God's word on the subject? If you don't think so, your position is duly noted.

Four paragraphs presented, and not one scripture reference to support your claim of a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, because there aren't any

 

[Randy Kluth]

Four paragraphs presented, and not one scripture reference to support your claim of a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, because there aren't any

You know the passage: Rev 20. The support for it, as I've long said, is the Hope of Israel as depicted in the Prophets and the eternal promise God made to Abraham in Gen 12-17. But you can decide how you want to interpret it. I don't want to argue--just give my perspective on it.

 

[Truth7t7]

You know the passage: Rev 20. The support for it, as I've long said, is the Hope of Israel as depicted in the Prophets and the eternal promise God made to Abraham in Gen 12-17. But you can decide how you want to interpret it. I don't want to argue--just give my perspective on it.

Randy in love, all the promises made to Abraham have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ

The promise was made to "Seed" singular, and that is Jesus Christ, not "Seeds" plural as in Israel

Galatians 3:16KJV
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

 

[Truth7t7]

You know the passage: Rev 20. The support for it, as I've long said, is the Hope of Israel as depicted in the Prophets and the eternal promise God made to Abraham in Gen 12-17. But you can decide how you want to interpret it. I don't want to argue--just give my perspective on it.

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Truth7t7]

You know the passage: Rev 20. The support for it, as I've long said, is the Hope of Israel as depicted in the Prophets and the eternal promise God made to Abraham in Gen 12-17. But you can decide how you want to interpret it. I don't want to argue--just give my perspective on it.

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Taken]

@Randy Kluth

* Rapture applies to the Resurrection of the Church;
(Body “crucified”, soul saved, spirit quickened BEFORE bodily death, not subject to Wrath).
~ Example ~ IN Christ...( 1 Thes 4:17 -18 )
* Rapture is Church called and meeting their “Lord”.
...has not yet occurred.

* Revive applies to a soul returning to a dead body, and body resumes natural life.
~ Example ~ boy dies, resumes living ~ (1 King 17:10 -24)
...has occurred numerous times.

* Resurrection applies to dead body’s (endured in belief, but did not convert, at Bodily death, become saved souls and quicken spirits), become risen in glorified (uncorrupted) body’s.
...occurs after fullness of Tribulation.
(During Trib, Wrath & mass turning to Christ & bodily death & division with and without God)
~ mass turning; via 2 preaching witnesses, 144,000 with ”lamb”, one angel speaks the gospel to all the world.
~ Example ~ Endures belief - not Converted ~ (1 Thes 4:14)

* Son of Mancame, humbled.
* Son of Man left, with power
* Power of God Revealed IS Christ.
* Son of Man returns, with power

Get your wondering, will the world even notice the Converted are missing.
Probably not. The world is being conditioned for families being separated as usual, as well as missing persons being a daily usual occurrence.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Randy Kluth]

Randy in love, all the promises made to Abraham have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ

The promise was made to "Seed" singular, and that is Jesus Christ, not "Seeds" plural as in Israel

Galatians 3:16KJV
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

I'll take seriously your arguments are being made "in love," and I appreciate that. Argue away!

Your reference in Gal 3 speaks of promises made not just to the "Seed" but also to "Abraham." Yes, Christ, the "Seed," fulfills all of the promises made to Abraham. So that would include the promise of many nations, including the promise made about the nation Israel. God must have, I believe, many nations of faith, including Israel, by the time eternity rolls around. Somehow that must be fulfilled, I believe.

Paul was not arguing that the "Seed" of Abraham excluded Isaac and Jacob and all Israel. Rather, his argument was that all of these descendants are being bunched together to reflect a single body of faith, with Christ presiding over them all as the Head.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

No, I can't find references to a specifically 1000 year reign in the OT, though we can find *many references* to a future Kingdom Reign of God over all the earth with Israel fulfilled. The idea of a 1000 year reign, however, was taken by some to result from an interpretation of the OT Scriptures where a day is compared to a thousand years. The assumption then was made that history itself will experience 6 "days" amounting to 6000 years, leading up to a "7th day" lasting for a 1000 years.

Psalm 90.4 A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Exactly!

 

[michaelvpardo]

Four paragraphs presented, and not one scripture reference to support your claim of a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, because there aren't any

You've been presented with numerous passages and verses all over this forum without giving any adequate explanation for their existence in scripture. All those who post on the eschatological forum regularly are already familiar with your opinion and biases. Why do you imagine any of us would present further argument when you reject the proofs provided?

 

[Truth7t7]

I'll take seriously your arguments are being made "in love," and I appreciate that. Argue away!

Your reference in Gal 3 speaks of promises made not just to the "Seed" but also to "Abraham." Yes, Christ, the "Seed," fulfills all of the promises made to Abraham. So that would include the promise of many nations, including the promise made about the nation Israel. God must have, I believe, many nations of faith, including Israel, by the time eternity rolls around. Somehow that must be fulfilled, I believe.

Paul was not arguing that the "Seed" of Abraham excluded Isaac and Jacob and all Israel. Rather, his argument was that all of these descendants are being bunched together to reflect a single body of faith, with Christ presiding over them all as the Head.

Yes Paul clearly describes who the Israel if God is, the Church

Gods words clearly show (Two Israel's) below

1.) Israel of the flesh (Jews)

2.) Israel of the promised seed (Church)

Scripture clearly teaches Israel of the flesh, they aren't the children of God, it's that simple

Romans 9:6-8KJV

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Yes the Kingdom of God has been taken from National Ethnic Israel, And Given To The Church, a "Holy Nation" as clearly seen below

Matthew 21:43KJV

3 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2:9KJV

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

 

[Truth7t7]

No, I can't find references to a specifically 1000 year reign in the OT, though we can find *many references* to a future Kingdom Reign of God over all the earth with Israel fulfilled. The idea of a 1000 year reign, however, was taken by some to result from an interpretation of the OT Scriptures where a day is compared to a thousand years. The assumption then was made that history itself will experience 6 "days" amounting to 6000 years, leading up to a "7th day" lasting for a 1000 years.

Psalm 90.4 A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.

Exactly!

More "Assumptions" without scriptural support, you cant find reference to a 1,000 year Kingdom in the OT because it dosent exist

Randy in the fact presented below, your Hope's for a Millennial Kingdom on this earth is removed, will you disregard the fact that when Jesus Christ returns (Then Cometh The End)?

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

Afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[marks]

Paul was not arguing that the "Seed" of Abraham excluded Isaac and Jacob and all Israel. Rather, his argument was that all of these descendants are being bunched together to reflect a single body of faith, with Christ presiding over them all as the Head.

The Last Man, that's one more reason to understand that doctrine. We are removed from Adam and placed into Christ. The promises are to Christ, and in Christ we share them.

Much love!

 

[Truth7t7]

You've been presented with numerous passages and verses all over this forum without giving any adequate explanation for their existence in scripture. All those who post on the eschatological forum regularly are already familiar with your opinion and biases. Why do you imagine any of us would present further argument when you reject the proofs provided?

It's my opinion your claims are false, your definition of "Adequate Explanation" is your opinion, and nothing more

 

[michaelvpardo]

I believe (my opinion) that Jesus posed that question about faith at His return, because He was openly rejected by many scribes, Pharisees, and Sadducees, all familiar with scripture.
You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. John 5:39

Some of these clearly understood that Jesus was walking in a prophetic path from scripture and still wanted to see Him murdered.
62 On the next day, which followed the Day of Preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees gathered together to Pilate, 63 saying, “Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise.’ 64 Therefore command that the tomb be made secure until the third day, lest His disciples come by night and steal Him away, and say to the people, ‘He has risen from the dead.’ So the last deception will be worse than the first.”
Matthew 27:62-64

There is no other sound basis for faith than the word of God and faith comes by "hearing" the word, (recieving it as true).
The only rebuke we see Jesus give after the resurrection directly to His disciples was their slowness to believe the scriptures.
25 Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. Luke 24:25-27

Nearly all attacks upon the Christian faith today are attacks upon the veracity of scripture. I've encountered dozens of professing Christians on this site and other Christian forums that do not believe the scriptures are accurate, complete, or relevant. I've encountered even more who selectively believe scripture, agreeing with what is acceptable to themselves and rejecting what they don't like or can't reconcile to their flawed doctrine.

In the media there is an ongoing attack upon scripture because it disagrees with popular opinion on acceptable behavior, the differing roles of men and women, and the doubts introduced by scientists of an atheistic bent who have developed hypotheses to explain our existence without any requirement for a "creator."

In some nations the Bible is already a banned and illegal book. Since some laws already define the exegesis of certain biblical texts as "hate speech", its reasonable to predict a total ban on scripture in the near future if the Lord Himself doesn't intervene and turn whole populations to Himself (He could do this with a great outpouring of His Spirit, but will this happen prior to His return?)

 

[michaelvpardo]

It's my opinion your claims are false, your definition of "Adequate Explanation" is your opinion, and nothing more

As is your opinion, and its nothing more.

 

[michaelvpardo]

No, I can't find references to a specifically 1000 year reign in the OT, though we can find *many references* to a future Kingdom Reign of God over all the earth with Israel fulfilled. The idea of a 1000 year reign, however, was taken by some to result from an interpretation of the OT Scriptures where a day is compared to a thousand years. The assumption then was made that history itself will experience 6 "days" amounting to 6000 years, leading up to a "7th day" lasting for a 1000 years.

Psalm 90.4 A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.



Exactly!

The assumption about a 1000 year reign is derived from the book of the Revelation :

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Revelation 20:4
Some assert that this verse only applies to a reign in heaven, but they ignore all the Scriptures about the restoration of national Israel found in the old testament and the promise made to Daniel in regard to his inheritance. (The inheritance of Israel was all real estate with the notable exception of the tribe of Levi. I'm reasonably confident that the church is not the tribe of Levi.)

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes Paul clearly describes who the Israel if God is, the Church
Gods words clearly show (Two Israel's) below
1.) Israel of the flesh (Jews)
2.) Israel of the promised seed (Church)
Scripture clearly teaches Israel of the flesh, they aren't the children of God, it's that simple

I actually think that it's a mistake to create a simplistic dichotomy, because it misrepresents the facts. Though we may generalize that when Israel is in decline and nearly all of them are corrupt it is *not* correct that the entire nation is corrupt. There were always men like Elijah or Jeremiah who held the standard faithfully, who did not participate in the corruption. On the contrary, they worked against the corruption!

So no, we cannot say that Israel is "the flesh." And when we take a Jewish name and apply it to non-Jewish Christians what we're really doing is allegorizing. The Scriptures do not teach this, in my opinion. There are verses that sound like that, but I don't agree that they are teaching that.

Romans 9:6-8KJV
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

This is not saying that all Israel is the flesh. It's actually teaching the opposite!

Yes the Kingdom of God has been taken from National Ethnic Israel, And Given To The Church, a "Holy Nation" as clearly seen below
Matthew 21:43KJV
3 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Yes, we agree that at the point of judgment Israel lost her blessing from God, and became, as Hosea indicated, "Not My People." But as Hosea indicated this was to be a temporary judgment. Just as Israel was restored after the Babylonian Captivity, so will Israel be restored after God's abandonment of them during the NT era. Just my opinion.

1 Peter 2:9KJV
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

This could conceivably be teaching Replacement Theology. But I don't think so. I think Peter was writing to Jewish believers, to set an example for all believers that they should become holy nations. And that's what happened when the Roman Empire became Christian, and when Christianity expanded among the nations of Europe. There came to be *many* "holy nations," just as God had promised Abraham.

But keep in mind that if God promised Abraham many believing nations he also was promised a biological nation descended from him. If Israel falls never to rise again, then Christian nations will also fall, never to rise again. But in the Millennium I believe all of this will be fulfilled.