Will God's Forgiveness Save Anyone?

[bbyrd009]

God's forgiveness will not save anyone, i don't think. Can't find a v for this anywhere. Do you think you are relying on God's forgiveness for your salvation?

 

[amadeus]

@bbyrd009
I do not believe that God's forgiveness is equal to salvation but it may take more than one verse to show why. But then what is salvation?

Without God's forgiveness of our sins we cannot be saved, if final and complete salvation means being always with God. But, being forgiven is simply wiping the slate clean. It is then is an empty vessel as the man in these verses was empty when the unclean spirit was gone:

"When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation." Matt 12:43-45

He was forgiven, but without being filled with something better the empty space would be refilled with even more and worse garbage, more uncleanness.

So being emptied of the filth [forgiven], the man need to be filled but with something good from the One who is good:

"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled." Matt 5:6

To be filled with righteousness [God's not our own self-righteousnes] we must be clean. We must be forgiven of our sins, but there is no salvation for an empty vessel.

 

[Jun2u]

God's forgiveness will not save anyone, i don't think. Can't find a v for this anywhere. Do you think you are relying on God's forgiveness for your salvation?

Matthew 9:2-7
2 And, behold, they brought to Him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
3 And, behold certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.
4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts siad, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
6 But that you may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise take up thy bed, and go unto thy house.
7 And he arose, and departed to his house.

Will the above passages suffice?

Question:
What do you suppose are we saved from, since "the wages of sin is death?"

To God Be The Glory

 

[bbyrd009]

Will the above passages suffice?

as amadeus has pointed out, likely not, i guess

What do you suppose are we saved from, since "the wages of sin is death?"

well, imo that is what we are saved from, the curse of the law, but that is also a different subject.

 

[bbyrd009]

i'd like to stay on God's forgiveness here, as this seems to be a central plank in the hyper-grace movement, and i'm trying to better understand @H. Richard 's position, which he does not wish to be included in Universal Reconciliation, for reasons that are not clear to me.

As near as i can gather, a popular...belief now is that if one "really, really" believes, all of their sins are forgiven, and their works will not be judged, i guess? And they do not have to rebound from sin any longer either, as near as i can tell. We have some others here who might explain the position better, surely, but as near as i can tell the word "faith" is kind of supplanted by "belief," and the "really, really" part does not imply any action.

There are some other tenets of this that i don't get either, but a central theme seems to be that because God has forgiven them--at profession i guess?--they are now "saved," and OSAS no doubt too, although i am guessing there.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

God's forgiveness will not save anyone, i don't think. Can't find a v for this anywhere. Do you think you are relying on God's forgiveness for your salvation?

I don't understand?

Acts 13:38 KJV
[38] Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

Acts 26:18 KJV
[18] To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Romans 4:7-8 KJV
[7] Saying , Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. [8] Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Ephesians 1:7 KJV
[7] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Colossians 2:13-14 KJV
[13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; [14] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Now it is not about forgiveness? What is the point? What am I missing?

Yes, I believe God treats me as one forgiven and righteous and perfect before God...based off of Christ's work...not mine.

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, I believe God treats me as one forgiven and righteous and perfect before God...based off of Christ's work...not mine.

based upon what though? Iow what action of yours induced God to forgive you?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That the woman caught in adultery did, to be forgiven by Christ?

 

[amadeus]

@bbyrd009

bbyrd009 said:
As near as i can gather, a popular...belief now is that if one "really, really" believes, all of their sins are forgiven, and their works will not be judged, i guess? And they do not have to rebound from sin any longer either, as near as i can tell. We have some others here who might explain the position better, surely, but as near as i can tell the word "faith" is kind of supplanted by "belief," and the "really, really" part does not imply any action.

There are some other tenets of this that i don't get either, but a central theme seems to be that because God has forgiven them--at profession i guess?--they are now "saved," and OSAS no doubt too, although i am guessing there.

They are saved when they have repented, but...

To clarify where I stand on salvation and this is nothing new for those who are not believing in OSAS. Very simply I have been saved when i first repented, I am being saved for other things of which I am now repenting and I shall be saved from other things for which I also need to repent for long as I continue along this course of time allotted to us in this flesh. When I have drawn my last breath as a man of flesh and blood if at that point I am on the Lord's side, then I will have attained [through the means Jesus provided] the salvation which places me with God forever more.

Jesus did not suddenly come on the scene as an overcomer. He was the Word of God and had the Spirit of God, but he had never lived as a man of flesh with all of the temptations of a man of flesh. He was born as man subject to temptation in order to overcome all of those temptations [I John 2:16]. He did not overcome anyone else's temptations. They have to do that for themselves. We have to do that for ourselves. Part of the reason Jesus came was to provide the means for others to overcome their own temptations. He did that, but each of us now is able to proceed to become overcomers as he did.

Jesus first set the example of overcoming prior to his crucifixion [John 16:33]. What he did is overcome the world of his own flesh so that no more temptations would attract him. As he states in the next chapter, he was No Longer In the World [John 17:11]. That is to say he was outside the possibility of sin and therefore for him there were no more temptations even though the cross was still before him. Jesus provided the means for us by first opening the Door/Gate which was closed to the Garden of Eden. He did that when he died on the cross. The Door was open, but being forgiven did not make us ready to go through that gate to the Tree of Life. We still had to finish our course. Jesus finished his. Remember his words on the cross: "It is finished" [John 19:30].

If we acknowledge it, our sins were forgiven by the sacrifice of Jesus, but more is required then for us to proceed toward God. We must now overcome our own little world of temptation. Jesus skipped the first step because he did not require someone to forgive him, but he did need to overcome and did so. We must also do so. Everything necessary has been provided. Jesus opened the Door, but then on that day of Pentecost described in Acts 2 the power to go through was given to whosoever will. We must take hold of the power [the Holy Ghost] and do all that is necessary for us throughout the remainder of our course as a man subject to temptations in the flesh.

People may receive forgiveness but that is NOT the end of the road. They must do something more:

"When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:10-11

Jesus had forgiven her so at that point no punishment was required, but her time on this course in her flesh filled with temptations was not finished yet. She had not yet overcome her own little world.

If after having repented and received forgiveness one sins again consider these words:

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

But we are not left hopeless presuming our sin was not the unforgivable sin. We can still then reach out to our mediator/advocate to request additional favorable consideration:

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" I John 2:1

 

[VictoryinJesus]

based upon what though? Iow what action of yours induced God to forgive you?

That the woman caught in adultery did, to be forgiven by Christ?

Belief that: "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

But don't I have to be forgiven to enter into the presence of God? To say I don't need forgiveness? Wouldn't that mean I could remain "unclean" and have no need of an advocate? Doesn't that diminish what Jesus died for? For mans sin to be forgiven?

 

[bbyrd009]

But don't I have to be forgiven to enter into the presence of God?

well, did Adam and Eve have to be forgiven in order to?

Belief that: "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

the Woman Caught in Adultery did not do this--but then that passage is contested, so a better example might be in order; Lazarus, perhaps. Or the First Son of the Vineyard Owner, or the Good Samaritan, or...you get it

 

[bbyrd009]

To say I don't need forgiveness?

not saying that. Trying to see how forgiveness is applied by God, mostly as an exercise for H. Richard, who does not seem to wish to engage here, hmm. A point that i hope will come out is that all are forgiven, yet nonetheless it does not appear to avail many, for what reason i hope will become clearer. (lack of rebound)

briefly, it does not matter if you are forgiven if you cannot accept forgiveness, and insist that you have done nothing wrong. You are forgiven, but still separate iow, by your own choice.

 

[bbyrd009]

But don't I have to be forgiven to enter into the presence of God? To say I don't need forgiveness? Wouldn't that mean I could remain "unclean" and have no need of an advocate?

tbh the position makes little sense to me either, but if i am not mistaken it proceeds from "all are forgiven," which i have no problem with, but it ends up somehow at "i do not have to confess my mistakes to those i have offended, nor seek their forgiveness, nor seek to make it right, and i will still be ok in God's presence." Which i doubt is true, but not because God will have a problem, but because the Light will be too painful for the unrebounded (unrepentant)

 

[ScottA]

God's forgiveness will not save anyone, i don't think. Can't find a v for this anywhere. Do you think you are relying on God's forgiveness for your salvation?

The parable of the wheat and the tares tells it pretty straight - the tares among us get thrown into the fire.

 

[mjrhealth]

Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Luk 14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?

Can you imaging God starting all of this, if He didnt know He was going to finish it, make Him a bit of a hypocrite, wouldn't you think.

Luk 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

It all comes down to Love. God has absolutely no reason to forgive mankind, but His love for His creation causes Him to do so, God is love, He can not, not forgive if one should ask, and those who dont know Him, well even Hitler can be forgive, i am not placing God in any boxes as christians do, He is far more wise than me, and only He knows what the end will bring. We believe, than we are forgiven,.. the end. Of course if you dont believe than you will never feel forgiven.

 

[ScottA]

There is another interesting point and thought that we of these times should take to heart:

Because Christ was "the Last" of those born under the Adamic Covenant...all that remains for these times (the times of the gentiles) are the gentiles and those born [again] of the spirit of God (of whom Christ is "the First"). Meaning, the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit...is a reality of our times: the fire that proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies.

 

[Jun2u]

i'd like to stay on God's forgiveness here, as this seems to be a central plank in the hyper-grace movement, and i'm trying to better understand @H. Richard 's position, which he does not wish to be included in Universal Reconciliation, for reasons that are not clear to me.

As near as i can gather, a popular...belief now is that if one "really, really" believes, all of their sins are forgiven, and their works will not be judged, i guess? And they do not have to rebound from sin any longer either, as near as i can tell. We have some others here who might explain the position better, surely, but as near as i can tell the word "faith" is kind of supplanted by "belief," and the "really, really" part does not imply any action.

There are some other tenets of this that i don't get either, but a central theme seems to be that because God has forgiven them--at profession i guess?--they are now "saved," and OSAS no doubt too, although i am guessing there.

Well, here’s God telling the world to “believe in His Son, hear ye, Him.” The problem with this calling is none can hear, none will believe! All, without exception, will not believe because no one seeks after God no, not one! (Romans 3). But many did and do believe. How so? By God intervening in their lives as He did with the raising of Lazarus.

This is the reason God made a better covenant that He sacrificed His only Son to redeem all those He predestined to salvation (Matthew 1:21). If, God does not intervene in anyone’s life, that person is forever lost. To be redeemed means to be forgiven of all sins. O what an awesome God we serve.

No, God does not predestines anyone to hell. We will not find any such language in Scripture that states God predestines some to hell (double predestination, as some calls it?). We go to hell because of our sins, therefore it is imperative we need a savior. If Jesus redeemed but did not pay for one sin in anyone’s life, he will have to go to hell to pay for that one sin, and no one will reach and get out through to the other end, because the equivalent and condition of hell is forever.

The Bible is the only Book in the world that deals with the problem of sin and its consequences. However, it also deals with rewards, hence, the Good News.

No one, specially in these forums understands the doctrine of OSAS, because they have no inkling as to the nature of ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED, or what they are really saved from and how many of their sins were forgiven.

To God Be The Glory

 

[H. Richard]

I addressed all of this in my OP "THE SIN OF UN-BELIEF" In Christ God has provided salvation """""""FOR ALL THAT WILL BELIEVE IT."".
Note that there is a requirement. To believe it. If a person does not believe God's plan of salvation that person is not saved.

 

[bbyrd009]

I addressed all of this in my OP "THE SIN OF UN-BELIEF" In Christ God has provided salvation """""""FOR ALL THAT WILL BELIEVE IT."".
Note that there is a requirement. To believe it. If a person does not believe God's plan of salvation that person is not saved.

didn't seem to bother the First Son or the Good Samaritan any. How do you reply to that?

And "believing" apparently does not "save" those who cry "Lord, Lord," either; so how are they distinct, in your opinion? ty

 

[bbyrd009]

why does "faith" appear...well, disappear, in your model? "Belief" is all i hear.

 

[DicipleofJesus]

God's forgiveness will not save anyone, i don't think. Can't find a v for this anywhere. Do you think you are relying on God's forgiveness for your salvation?

Jesus died on a cross(Capital Punishment) for the sins of all mankind,including you and me, because God the Father loved us all that much. The punishment for our sins has been dished out with Jesus bearing the punishment in our place. We just have to accept this historic event as payment for our sins and accept Jesus as our Savior and Lord and we are on our way to Heaven. Jesus is our advocate before the Father. No better advocate then Jesus. So I am forgiven.