Without unconditional Election,no one would be saved.

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

The great blessing if the teaching of unconditional election is a great blessing to all saints throughout time.
If Jesus was not the mediator and surety from before the creation of the world, not one sinner would be saved anywhere at any time. Not one. Zero,nada.
If God had not had mercy on a multitude of sinners,electing each of them there would be no one saved as no one seeks God, no not one.psalm14:1-3,

 

[Enoch111]

If God had not had mercy on a multitude of sinners,electing each of them there would be no one saved as no one seeks God, no not one.

Scripture clearly refutes unconditional election, but you would rather promote your doctrine than believe God.

The fact that the majority of Jews rejected their true Messiah is sufficient to prove that unconditional election (so-called) is A MYTH of major proportions.

1. Did God elect Israel to represent Him on earth and to bring forth the Messiah -- the Savior of the world? Absolutely.

Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth
[1] the adoption, and
[2] the glory, and
[3] the covenants, and
[4] the giving of the law, and
[5] the service of God, and
[6] the promises;
[7] Whose are the fathers, and
[8] of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (Rom 9:4,5)

So this passage tells us that Israel -- ABOVE ALL NATIONS -- was highly privileged with all spiritual blessings. Therefore according to so-called unconditional election, EVERY SINGLE JEW SHOULD HAVE BEEN SAVED.

2. Instead, what do we see in Romans 9?

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:... For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Rom 9:1-3;6-8)

3. Now the Calvinist must ask Paul why in the world are they not all Israel, which are of Israel? Should not God have unconditionally elected each and every one, after putting them into such an advantageous position?

4. So we see from this glaring discrepancy that only those who obey the Gospel are elected or predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom 8:29,30).

ROMANS 10
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

5. So what Scripture teaches us is that Calvinistic Unconditional Election (the "U" of TULIP) is totally BOGUS.

 

[farouk]

The great blessing if the teaching of unconditional election is a great blessing to all saints throughout time.
If Jesus was not the mediator and surety from before the creation of the world, not one sinner would be saved anywhere at any time. Not one. Zero,nada.
If God had not had mercy on a multitude of sinners,electing each of them there would be no one saved as no one seeks God, no not one.psalm14:1-3,

Well, exactly; the Blesser had glorious plans to bless in Christ. The supposed Earners (there aren't any, actually) of blessing have no power to command it.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Scripture clearly refutes unconditional election, but you would rather promote your doctrine than believe God.

The fact that the majority of Jews rejected their true Messiah is sufficient to prove that unconditional election (so-called) is A MYTH of major proportions.

1. Did God elect Israel to represent Him on earth and to bring forth the Messiah -- the Savior of the world? Absolutely.

Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth
[1] the adoption, and
[2] the glory, and
[3] the covenants, and
[4] the giving of the law, and
[5] the service of God, and
[6] the promises;
[7] Whose are the fathers, and
[8] of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (Rom 9:4,5)

So this passage tells us that Israel -- ABOVE ALL NATIONS -- was highly privileged with all spiritual blessings. Therefore according to so-called unconditional election, EVERY SINGLE JEW SHOULD HAVE BEEN SAVED.

2. Instead, what do we see in Romans 9?

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:... For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Rom 9:1-3;6-8)

3. Now the Calvinist must ask Paul why in the world are they not all Israel, which are of Israel? Should not God have unconditionally elected each and every one, after putting them into such an advantageous position?

4. So we see from this glaring discrepancy that only those who obey the Gospel are elected or predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom 8:29,30).

ROMANS 10
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

5. So what Scripture teaches us is that Calvinistic Unconditional Election (the "U" of TULIP) is totally BOGUS.

Thanks for posting verses proving election.You have supported the teaching without even knowing it.I will show it soon but I know the others will beat me to it

 

[Windmillcharge]

Well all I know is if God didn't chose me before he made creation. He would have seen nothing in my life after my birth to make him want to chose me.

it give the glory to God and denies any glory or credit to man, so it is correct, or more correct than any doctrine that glorifies mans action and responcibility and does not give all the glory to God.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Enoch ignores dealing with Psalm 14, Rom3....men not seeking God.
He suggests we do not believe God instead.
Here are more verses he will ignore...jn6:44...no man can come,unless
1cor2:14...the natural man cannot..
Rom8:7...neither indeed can be

 

[Enoch111]

Thanks for posting verses proving election.You have supported the teaching without even knowing it.I will show it soon but I know the others will beat me to it

Some people just don't like giving up their bogus doctrines. And sure, you can make any Scripture pirouette to suit your doctrines. No surprise. But you failed to actually address the issue presented. All of Israel was already elected. So why was all Israel not TOTALLY SAVED?

 

[Dave L]

Some people just don't like giving up their bogus doctrines. And sure, you can make any Scripture pirouette to suit your doctrines. No surprise. But you failed to actually address the issue presented. All of Israel was already elected. So why was all Israel not TOTALLY SAVED?

Not to butt in, but Paul answers this saying Abraham's seed is Jesus and those who believe in him. Israel = Abraham's seed, called both Hebrews and Israel in Genesis.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Well all I know is if God didn't chose me before he made creation. He would have seen nothing in my life after my birth to make him want to chose me.

it give the glory to God and denies any glory or credit to man, so it is correct, or more correct than any doctrine that glorifies mans action and responcibility and does not give all the glory to God.

Well for sure. God set His electing love on the elect, while they were yet sinners...rom5:8...we were seen to be as Ezkiels infant.exk16:1-13

 

[Enoch111]

Not to butt in, but Paul answers this saying Abraham's seed is Jesus and those who believe in him. Israel = Abraham's seed, called both Hebrews and Israel in Genesis.

You are missing the point.

ALL ISRAEL WAS AN ELECT NATION -- HIGHLY PRIVILEGED
ALL ISRAEL WAS NOT ELECTED FOR SALVATION
CONCLUSION: UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION IS BOGUS

And you have proved my point. Only "those who believe in [on] Him" are saved. But all should have believed on Him according to Calvinism.

 

[Enoch111]

Enoch ignores dealing with Psalm 14, Rom3...

You have still not explained properly from your perspective why an ELECT NATION was not elected for unconditional election and salvation.

Israel was not elected for any good in them (as Scripture teaches), so why were they not ALL elected unconditionally for salvation?

Because Unconditional Election is a bogus man-made doctrine.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

[QUOTE="Enoch111,

[Scripture clearly refutes unconditional election],
Here Enoch demonstrates his lack of understanding of the teaching, lets see why he misses it.

[ but you would rather promote your doctrine than believe God.]
Here is a newsflash. The doctrine is God-given and to be believed. Just because you cannot grasp it does not change anything.
[The fact that the majority of Jews rejected their true Messiah is sufficient to prove that unconditional election (so-called) is A MYTH of major proportions.]

It proves the teaching, that's what makes it ironic.

[ Did God elect Israel to represent Him on earth and to bring forth the Messiah -- the Savior of the world? Absolutely.]

God elects a nation out of all the nations. We discover that He is going to gather out some of His elect out of that one nation.



[Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth
[1] the adoption, and
[2] the glory, and
[3] the covenants, and
[4] the giving of the law, and
[5] the service of God, and
[6] the promises;
[7] Whose are the fathers, and
[8] of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (Rom 9:4,5)

So this passage tells us that Israel -- ABOVE ALL NATIONS -- was highly privileged with all spiritual blessings.]

okay....


[Therefore according to so-called unconditional election, EVERY SINGLE JEW SHOULD HAVE BEEN SAVED.]

This shows your complete lack of comprehension of what you are reading.No where does the bible teach that every physical Jew will be saved. If you studied Romans 9 in any detail you would know this, but you do not. Instead you attempt to jump in the deep end of the pool and cannot swim.

[ Instead, what do we see in Romans 9?]

Thank you lets take a look
:... For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Rom 9:1-3;6-8)

So, your contention that all Israel should be saved just got blown out of the water.
you are wondering why is that?

Notice the passage speaks of some being called...in Issac....that is election.

two kinds of children are spoken of.....sperma....natural descendants
teknon...spiritual children of the covenant.
Failing to understand this , plus your imbecilic desire to attack the historic faith leaves you unable to welcome truth.

[ Now the Calvinist must ask Paul why in the world are they not all Israel, which are of Israel? Should not God have unconditionally elected each and every one, after putting them into such an advantageous position?]

No all Calvinists understand God is going to save all the elect. In Romans 9 of all places this is shown. The elect REMNANT is spoken of quoting Isa1:9. It is always special when persons such as yourself not only oppose themselves but are too lazy to study and get help for yourself.


[ So we see from this glaring discrepancy that only those who obey the Gospel are elected or predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom 8:29,30)].

Your foolish idea is not found in the text of Romans 8. Romans 8 teaches the opposite of what you suggest.

[ROMANS 10
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.]

Good verses that do nothing to help your story. It declares the non elect of Israel died in unbelief.

[So what Scripture teaches us is that Calvinistic Unconditional Election (the "U" of TULIP) is totally BOGUS.]
you have once again failed in your quest with your men centered ideas

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

You have still not explained properly from your perspective why an ELECT NATION was not elected for unconditional election and salvation.

Israel was not elected for any good in them (as Scripture teaches), so why were they not ALL elected unconditionally for salvation?

Because Unconditional Election is a bogus man-made doctrine.

Another off-topic post. Do you understand anything you try to read? The thread is concerning the fact that no one would be saved apart from God electing a multitude.

 

[justbyfaith]

I am not going to respond to this thread except to say, there is already a thread on Calvinism in this section that remains unfinished. Adding another thread on the same subject is only going to make things more difficult to follow. For example, something said in this thread may need to be referred to in the other one; and having two threads on the same issue will make everything harder to find. Also, the same arguments are brought up for Calvinism in every new thread on the subject and are answered. Then the Calvinists hope for a rematch in which their opponents will simply get tired of giving the same response that defeats their proposition; thus they may even have a few threads in which they win the argument; however this is only because the non-Calvinists are not vigilant enough to respond again with the same response as before that adequately answers the same concepts that were adequately answered previously by the simple response that answers the Calvinist's objections to the truth.

 

[justbyfaith]

I will respond to this statement, however, because I have liberty to do so:

Well all I know is if God didn't chose me before he made creation. He would have seen nothing in my life after my birth to make him want to chose me.

So, you never called on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth for salvation?

 

[Dave L]

You are missing the point.

ALL ISRAEL WAS AN ELECT NATION -- HIGHLY PRIVILEGED
ALL ISRAEL WAS NOT ELECTED FOR SALVATION
CONCLUSION: UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION IS BOGUS

And you have proved my point. Only "those who believe in [on] Him" are saved. But all should have believed on Him according to Calvinism.

You are confusing Physical Israel made up of believers and unbelievers alike, with the saved faithful like Abraham. That is, they were elect as a nation as well as some being elect as the saved among them.

 

[Episkopos]

The great blessing if the teaching of unconditional election is a great blessing to all saints throughout time.
If Jesus was not the mediator and surety from before the creation of the world, not one sinner would be saved anywhere at any time. Not one. Zero,nada.
If God had not had mercy on a multitude of sinners,electing each of them there would be no one saved as no one seeks God, no not one.psalm14:1-3,

Salvation is conditional. Look at the if's of the NT. IF we put to death the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit....then we will live.

I think the is great confusion when reading the bible to denote WHEN things take place. Eternal life can be entered into today...by the Spirit. Spiritual life in Jesus is a kind of life. It is to live as Jesus did while in the flesh.

To show just how conditional this salvation is...how many have experienced a walk without sin in the presence of God?

What is the condition? That we please God. THAT is the worthiness and condition to be met. There is no other condition, law, theory, scheme or idea....but to please God. Nothing is above God and controls Him. He is wholly other and sovereign.

 

[Dave L]

Salvation is conditional. Look at the if's of the NT. IF we put to death the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit....then we will live.

I think the is great confusion when reading the bible to denote WHEN things take place. Eternal life can be entered into today...by the Spirit. Spiritual life in Jesus is a kind of life. It is to live as Jesus did while in the flesh.

To show just how conditional this salvation is...how many have experienced a walk without sin in the presence of God?

What is the condition? That we please God. THAT is the worthiness and condition to be met. There is no other condition, law, theory, scheme or idea....but to please God. Nothing is above God and controls Him. He is wholly other and sovereign.

= salvation only for the self-righteous.

 

[Episkopos]

= salvation only for the self-righteous.

You are reflecting what you are doing to me. I said....God decides who pleases Him. Not people. But you claim a salvation for yourself apart from God's say so. You point to a bible that anyone can buy....but this does not buy you into the kingdom of God. There are conditions...written in the bible you are neglecting to respect.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Salvation is conditional. Look at the if's of the NT. IF we put to death the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit....then we will live.

I think the is great confusion when reading the bible to denote WHEN things take place. Eternal life can be entered into today...by the Spirit. Spiritual life in Jesus is a kind of life. It is to live as Jesus did while in the flesh.

To show just how conditional this salvation is...how many have experienced a walk without sin in the presence of God?

What is the condition? That we please God. THAT is the worthiness and condition to be met. There is no other condition, law, theory, scheme or idea....but to please God. Nothing is above God and controls Him. He is wholly other and sovereign.

Those are not conditional,but rather statements describing the result,le if so be
What you describe is a works based salvation which cannot save.