You say you don't believe the Rapture is real=then just stay here!!

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GISMYS_7

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You say you don't believe the Rapture is real=then just stay here!! No skin off my nose!! But know you must try to live under anti-christ rule and The judgments of God on this evil God rejecting world=The great tribulation judgments!!!----Your choice!!! Choose wisely!
 
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Randy Kluth

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You say you don't believe the Rapture is real=then just stay here!! No skin off my nose!! But know you must try to live under anti-christ rule and The judgments of God on this evil God rejecting world=The great tribulation judgments!!!----Your choice!!! Choose wisely!

Actually, brother, the choice is whether to believe the Scriptures or not.
 

justbyfaith

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Actually, brother, the choice is whether to believe the Scriptures or not.
Hebrews 9:28 tells us that Jesus is returning without sin but will only appear to those who are looking for Him...

This means that the rapture will be only for the expectant.
 

Randy Kluth

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Hebrews 9:28 tells us that Jesus is returning without sin but will only appear to those who are looking for Him...

This means that the rapture will be only for the expectant.

No, that doesn't have to do with those who will *see his return.* Plainly, *all* will see his return!

Rev 1.7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him.

The passage rather has to do with who will *benefit* form Jesus' Coming. It is those who we receive a reward who will benefit at his Coming.

In context, Jesus describes the need to watch for him as an indication his followers are interested in his judgments, and therefore conform their lives to his life.

It has to do with preparing themselves for judgment. Those who adequately and remain prepared for that event will benefit from his Coming. Those who are "looking for him" will find his Coming a welcome event! :)
 
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justbyfaith

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No, that doesn't have to do with those who will *see his return.* Plainly, *all* will see his return!

Rev 1.7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him.

That is referring to the glorious appearing at the end of the GT, not the rapture which takes place at the beginning of that period and where Jesus is only seen by those who are looking for Him, Hebrews 9:28..
 

Getitright

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You say you don't believe the Rapture is real=then just stay here!! No skin off my nose!! But know you must try to live under anti-christ rule and The judgments of God on this evil God rejecting world=The great tribulation judgments!!!----Your choice!!! Choose wisely!

There is no choice. You're not going anywhere.
 
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Randy Kluth

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That is referring to the glorious appearing at the end of the GT, not the rapture which takes place at the beginning of that period and where Jesus is only seen by those who are looking for Him, Hebrews 9:28..

That's the theory, right? There is not one single Scripture verse to substantiate that! It would've been very easy for the Holy Spirit to come out and say there will be a Pretrib Rapture, but He didn't. He didn't because it's not true. Paul said, by the Holy Spirit, that the day of Christ's Coming for the Church will not take place before the Antichrist appears and ultimately, is killed. That is taken right from the pages of Paul's 2nd letter to the Thessalonians.
 
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justbyfaith

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That's the theory, right? There is not one single Scripture verse to substantiate that! It would've been very easy for the Holy Spirit to come out and say there will be a Pretrib Rapture, but He didn't. He didn't because it's not true. Paul said, by the Holy Spirit, that the day of Christ's Coming for the Church will not take place before the Antichrist appears and ultimately, is killed. That is taken right from the pages of Paul's 2nd letter to the Thessalonians.
I believe that Revelation 3:10 indicates a pre-tribulation rapture for those of Philadelphia who "keep the word of His patience".
 

Randy Kluth

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I believe that Revelation 3:10 indicates a pre-tribulation rapture for those of Philadelphia who "keep the word of His patience".

Check any historical commentary. Scholars know that John was told to send letters to *contemporary churches* of his own day. He was not projecting into the future, unless you suppose that this is simply a blueprint the Holy Spirit was giving the entire Church across the entire NT age?

I kind of like the idea that the 7 churches of Asia Minor were a "blueprint," devised by God as a sort of representation of conditions the Church finds itself in every generation across the world. But in reality, if we are to properly interpret a biblical passage, we must begin with the actual meaning, which obviously referred to 7 historical churches that existed in John's time.

Clearly, the church of Philadelphia was an actual historical church. And it did experience the wide-spread tribulation that occurred at that time, and was exempted from it. Other churches, existing at the same time, apparently were not exempted from it. Other churches, like Smyrna, were called, by God, to suffer for the glory of Christ, and not be exempted from it. Each church had its own unique trials, and its own unique means of displaying Christ's glory. Some suffer, and some are delivered--both bring glory to Christ in their own way, if they submit and are obedient to God's word.

That's my take on it. There is no explicit theology of universal deliverance for the Church. The only thing the Bible guarantees the Church universally is deliverance from the eternal Wrath of God. We are never guaranteed absolute deliverance from trials, from persecution, from tribulation. In fact, the Scriptures assert the opposite!

From Barnes Notes on the Bible

Which shall come upon all the world - The phrase used here - "all the world" - may either denote the whole world; or the whole Roman empire; or a large district of country; or the land of Judaea. See the notes on Luke 2:1. Here, perhaps, all that is implied is, that the trial would be very extensive or general - so much so as to embrace the world, as the word was understood by those to whom the epistle was addressed. It need not be supposed that the whole world literally was included in it, or even all the Roman empire, but what was the world to them - the region which they would embrace in that term. If there were some far-spreading calamity in the country where they resided, it would probably be all that would be fairly embraced in the meaning of the word. It is not known to what trial the speaker refers. It may have been some form of persecution, or it may have been some calamity by disease, earthquake, or famine that was to occur. Tacitus (see Wetstein, in loco) mentions an earthquake that sank twelve cities in Asia Minor, in one night, by which, among others, Philadelphia was deeply affected; and 'it is possible that there may have been reference here to that overwhelming calamity. But nothing can be determined with certainty in regard to this.
 

justbyfaith

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I believe that the tribulation spoken of is the Great Tribulation.

unless you suppose that this is simply a blueprint the Holy Spirit was giving the entire Church across the entire NT age?

Yes. That is the application of Revelation 2 and 3.
 

Randy Kluth

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I believe that the tribulation spoken of is the Great Tribulation.

Do you believe that that the Church at Philadelphia was a symbolic city?

Yes. That is the application of Revelation 2 and 3.

I agree that Rev 2-3 can apply, in principle, to the entire Church of the NT Age. I just don't believe that the tribulation experienced by the Church at Philadelphia referred, symbolically, to the Reign of Antichrist. In reality, the Great Tribulation is the NT Jewish Diaspora, and not strictly the time of the Reign of Antichrist. But that's for those who believe what Jesus actually said in Luke 21.

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies [66-70 AD], you will know that its desolation [70 AD] is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out [escape to Pella], and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment [NT Jewish Diaspora] in fulfillment of all that has been written [Dan 9.26-27]. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress [the *real* Great Tribulation*] in the land and wrath against this people [the Jewish Punishment]. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations [historic dispersion of the Jews throughout the world]. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled [until the end of the age]."

The insertions are mine, of course.
 

justbyfaith

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The real Great Tribulation will be a war between the saints of God and the Antichrist kingdom; in which the Antichrist kingdom will be attempting to take over the minds of the saints using computer technology that will be implanted in the hand or forehead and which no one will be able to buy or sell without.

Those who take that mark will be eternally condemned (Revelation 14:9-11); because they will have offered permanent worship to the Antichrist. And God is a jealous God. He is also the Almighty; and He is who He is.
 

Randy Kluth

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The real Great Tribulation will be a war between the saints of God and the Antichrist kingdom; in which the Antichrist kingdom will be attempting to take over the minds of the saints using computer technology that will be implanted in the hand or forehead and which no one will be able to buy or sell without.

Those who take that mark will be eternally condemned (Revelation 14:9-11); because they will have offered permanent worship to the Antichrist. And God is a jealous God. He is also the Almighty; and He is who He is.

You are making up your own definition of the Great Tribulation, or taking it from others' made-up definition of it. Jesus himself defined it in Luke 21. It is a Jewish Punishment that lasts throughout the entire NT Age--the NT Jewish Diaspora.

And because the Jews turned against Christianity they persecuted the Christians among them. It was a national judgment upon Israel, and Christian persecution for the believers among them. This same pattern has been replicated in Christian countries, just as it was in the Jewish country. All nations, including formerly Christian nations, are heading towards Armageddon.

The Antichrist's Reign is not technically the Great Tribulation, although in a sense it is part of it. It is just another example of an apostate Kingdom turning against its own former religion. Antichrist will rise up out of a formerly Christian Kingdom and then turn against its Christianity.

That is, after all, how Jesus defined the Great Tribulation, as an apostate people of God, namely Israel, turning against their own Christ. And yes, that spells persecution for Christians in all of these apostate nations.
 

justbyfaith

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Consider that the GT is spoken of in the book of Daniel as a war against the saints by the Antichrist and that at the end of the war, a decision will be made for the saints of the Most High. According to the book of Revelation, the Antichrist will win the war immediately before this decision is made.

It may be that he will succeed at getting the mark on everyone; but that near the end the saints will remove it surgically from their bodies (thus rejecting it and not receiving it) in order that they might not have everlasting condemnation.

I could be wrong. I would suggest strongly that if you are alive in that period, that you do everything in your power to not receive it in the first place. But if it is forced on you and you did not worship the Antichrist, I believe that surgically removing the mark will be an option for those who want to be saved. Just think about the lake of fire and how you will go there if it is not removed, and I don't think that you will even require anaesthetic. A cauderized knife will be sufficient to remove it but I believe it will be necessary to pray that the blood of Jesus may flow from your veins and that you draw that blood so that the evil of the mark will be cleansed from you through the surgery.
 

GISMYS_7

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Why not just believe God's Word on the catching up (rapture)??

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain """shall be caught up together""" with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words1 Corinthians 15:51- 57
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
 

Randy Kluth

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Consider that the GT is spoken of in the book of Daniel as a war against the saints by the Antichrist and that at the end of the war, a decision will be made for the saints of the Most High. According to the book of Revelation, the Antichrist will win the war immediately before this decision is made.

The terminology you're using is based on a corrupt eschatology, which has turned terms on their heads. The Great Tribulation is not even mentioned, as such, in Dan 7, where Antichrist is mentioned. The Great Tribulation is only mentioned in Dan 12.1, where it refers to the Distress the Jewish People would begin to experience in the times following the Syrian oppression. That referred to Roman oppression.

It may be that he will succeed at getting the mark on everyone; but that near the end the saints will remove it surgically from their bodies (thus rejecting it and not receiving it) in order that they might not have everlasting condemnation.

I could be wrong. I would suggest strongly that if you are alive in that period, that you do everything in your power to not receive it in the first place. But if it is forced on you and you did not worship the Antichrist, I believe that surgically removing the mark will be an option for those who want to be saved. Just think about the lake of fire and how you will go there if it is not removed, and I don't think that you will even require anaesthetic. A cauderized knife will be sufficient to remove it but I believe it will be necessary to pray that the blood of Jesus may flow from your veins and that you draw that blood so that the evil of the mark will be cleansed from you through the surgery.

I'm not really worried about the mark of the Beast, although I do believe the Church will be here during the Reign of Antichrist. The Church has endured many antichrists in history, including the likes of Mohammad, Genghis Khan, Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin, and Mao. The Mark of the Beast is God's way of determining who is on His side and who is on the Devil's side. I don't believe it will be a tough decision to make for believers--they'll either die a martyr's death or run for the hills.

But I don't personally believe the Antichrist will rule the whole world. His empire numbers only 10 out of more than 200 countries in the world. It's just that he will have dominion on earth, meaning that his power in Europe will go unchallenged until 1260 days are up. Then Armageddon will erupt, spelling his doom. Christ will return to destroy him.
 

101G

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You say you don't believe the Rapture is real=then just stay here!! No skin off my nose!! But know you must try to live under anti-christ rule and The judgments of God on this evil God rejecting world=The great tribulation judgments!!!----Your choice!!! Choose wisely!

"know you must try to live under anti-christ rule " little to late, 1 John 2:18 "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."

and it have been some doosey through-out time, meanin our history, even NOW, even today.

PICJAG.
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

Waiting on him

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You say you don't believe the Rapture is real=then just stay here!! No skin off my nose!! But know you must try to live under anti-christ rule and The judgments of God on this evil God rejecting world=The great tribulation judgments!!!----Your choice!!! Choose wisely!
Are you Antichrist?