Zechariah 14:1-5

[guysmith]

Concerning the believers that Christ fights for in Zechariah 14:1-5:

1. How did they avoid taking the mark for the 3 1/2 years of the GT?
2. How did they feed themselves for 3 1/2 years wihtout the mark?
3. When did they get to Jerusalem?
4. How did they get to Jerusalem?

 

[daq]

Concerning the believers that Christ fights for in Zechariah 14:1-5:

1. How did they avoid taking the mark for the 3 1/2 years of the GT?
2. How did they feed themselves for 3 1/2 years wihtout the mark?
3. When did they get to Jerusalem?
4. How did they get to Jerusalem?

Chapter 14 (Started by "guysmith" 09 Feb 2013)

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, guysmith.

Concerning the believers that Christ fights for in Zechariah 14:1-5:

1. How did they avoid taking the mark for the 3 1/2 years of the GT?
2. How did they feed themselves for 3 1/2 years wihtout the mark?
3. When did they get to Jerusalem?
4. How did they get to Jerusalem?

First of all, it is incorrect to think of the beast's kingdom as all-encompassing. Whereas it will be a powerful kingdom during its time, one should not think that it will be the ONLY kingdom.

Second, how does ANYONE feed themselves for 3.5 years? It doesn't REQUIRE "buying and selling"; it requires "planting, growing, harvesting crops, raising animals, and BARTERING/TRADING for goods and services!"

Third and fourth, some have ALWAYS been in Yerushalayim, Yisra'el. There has always been a remnant, even during the occupation of the Ottoman Empire. Others have made their way there from other countries since WWII. Remember to whom Z'kharyahu was talking! He was not talking to just anybody on the earth; he was talking to the JEWS, the Y'hudiym of the tribe/kingdom who lived and worked in Yerushalayim!

Again, don't think of "earth" as "the whole globe"; think of "earth" as "the ground" or "the land!" Sometimes (even in Revelation), the word is talking about a SPECIFIC place, not the whole earth in general!


Shalom, daq.

Chapter 14 (Started by "guysmith" 09 Feb 2013)

Sometimes, something may be thought of as symbolic or analogous of something else, but not always, ESPECIALLY in the Tanakh! The prophecy of Z'kharyahu has NOT yet been completed and must be yet fulfilled. God has made it a habit to fulfill His prophecies COMPLETELY and LITERALLY! For instance, think of the 400 or so prophecies concerning the Messiah's first coming. Those were fulfilled LITERALLY and COMPLETELY (as far as He went in His first coming)! One should NOT make the mistake that God fulfilled any of the prophecies in some "figurative way"! Although some were postponed, delayed until such time as they would be fulfilled in Yeshua`s second advent or second coming, NONE of those fulfilled were fulfilled in some "spiritual" way! They LITERALLY happened, even if someone at the time had no earthly idea how they could be fulfilled!

Sorry, but I perceive you as being too "figurative" in your interpretation (an allegorical interpretation, for the most part) of those things which should be taken as historically and grammatically interpreted. A literal interpretation of a passage is OFTEN better than "spiritualizing something away."

 

[JosyWales]

1. How did they avoid taking the mark for the 3 1/2 years of the GT?
2. How did they feed themselves for 3 1/2 years wihtout the mark?

Both these questions are answered in Revelation.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

What is this place that is spoken of?

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.

As you can see from the above scripture, the 1260 days and the 3 1/2 times are the same thing. There will be a group of people, who are the true church, who will have a place in the wilderness that is shielded by God during the Apocalypse. At the end of the 1260 days, which is the same as the 3 1/2 times and the 42 months, they will be found and the Beast will attempt to destroy them. This attack seems to occur just before the attack on Jerusalem based on the following scripture in Zechariah:

Zec 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify [themselves] against Judah.

Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be
as David; and the house of David [shall be] as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

People who live in tents, such as the ones associated with Judah are transitory in nature (the holy people in the wilderness), unlike those who live in a city. Since this is an Apocalyptic scripture, I take it to mean that the ones in the wilderness are as Judah. They will be saved first and come to the aid of Jerusalem when it is attacked, after first being saved by God before the attack on the city.

3. When did they get to Jerusalem?
4. How did they get to Jerusalem?

It might require too much speculation to answer these questions, but as these things transpire, all will become clear.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, JosyWales.

1. How did they avoid taking the mark for the 3 1/2 years of the GT?
2. How did they feed themselves for 3 1/2 years wihtout the mark?

Both these questions are answered in Revelation.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

What is this place that is spoken of?

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.

As you can see from the above scripture, the 1260 days and the 3 1/2 times are the same thing. There will be a group of people, who are the true church, who will have a place in the wilderness that is shielded by God during the Apocalypse. At the end of the 1260 days, which is the same as the 3 1/2 times and the 42 months, they will be found and the Beast will attempt to destroy them. This attack seems to occur just before the attack on Jerusalem based on the following scripture in Zechariah:

Zec 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify [themselves] against Judah.

Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be
as David; and the house of David [shall be] as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

People who live in tents, such as the ones associated with Judah are transitory in nature (the holy people in the wilderness), unlike those who live in a city. Since this is an Apocalyptic scripture, I take it to mean that the ones in the wilderness are as Judah. They will be saved first and come to the aid of Jerusalem when it is attacked, after first being saved by God before the attack on the city.

3. When did they get to Jerusalem?
4. How did they get to Jerusalem?

It might require too much speculation to answer these questions, but as these things transpire, all will become clear.

Well, since the woman in Revelation refers to Isra'el, are you saying that Isra'el is the "true church?"

Revelation 12:6 and 14 are different by comparison. Revelation 12:6 simply says that the woman (Isra'el) is fed in the place in the desolation God prepared for her for 1,260 days. However, Revelation 12:14 says that she is nourished in the desolation for 3.5 times (years) FROM THE FACE OF THE SERPENT! They are NOT necessarily the same time span! They're only SUPERFICIALLY the same length of time! However, if one gets beyond the general to the specifics, there's obviously a difference in the two time periods because they are said differently!

3.5 cycles (years) x 365.2422 days/cycle (year) = 1,278.3477 days. That's 18+ days longer than the 1,260 days. How can this be? Simple! They CAME WITH SUPPLIES, enough for 2.5 weeks!

And, just for thoroughness, the 42 "moonths" are yet a DIFFERENT time period! 42 "moonths" x 29.5 days/"moonth" = 1,239 days at most, although this may be a bit more nebulous in its interpretation. This is the time period in which the beast would have free reign and the Gentiles would "tread underfoot" the holy city, Yerushalayim. It is LESS time than the other two periods to provide a BUFFER for the protection and provision of Isra'el in the desolation. They're not going to fly out to the desolation on the very same day that the beast takes power! That would be futile!

Sometimes, we just need to leave our preconceived ideas behind and take what the Scriptures say EXACTLY as they are said!

 

[John_8:32]

Concerning the believers that Christ fights for in Zechariah 14:1-5:

1. How did they avoid taking the mark for the 3 1/2 years of the GT?
2. How did they feed themselves for 3 1/2 years wihtout the mark?
3. When did they get to Jerusalem?
4. How did they get to Jerusalem?

1.) They refused it and accepted the consequences...

Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

2.) Trusting God...

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting (One could insert the word nuclear here) burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Isa 33:16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.

Psa 91:3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
Psa 91:4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
Psa 91:5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
Psa 91:6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
Psa 91:7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
Psa 91:8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.

3.) He is fighting for Jerusalem and its inhabitants, not Christians. At the time He returns, Christians are resurrected to spirit.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Not to go to heaven, but to rule with Christ on the earth...

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

4.) They go there with Christ...

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

When is His Kingdom of this world?

Dan 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

End-time Roman Empire

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

 

[daq]

Shalom, daq.


Sometimes, something may be thought of as symbolic or analogous of something else, but not always, ESPECIALLY in the Tanakh! The prophecy of Z'kharyahu has NOT yet been completed and must be yet fulfilled. God has made it a habit to fulfill His prophecies COMPLETELY and LITERALLY! For instance, think of the 400 or so prophecies concerning the Messiah's first coming. Those were fulfilled LITERALLY and COMPLETELY (as far as He went in His first coming)! One should NOT make the mistake that God fulfilled any of the prophecies in some "figurative way"! Although some were postponed, delayed until such time as they would be fulfilled in Yeshua`s second advent or second coming, NONE of those fulfilled were fulfilled in some "spiritual" way! They LITERALLY happened, even if someone at the time had no earthly idea how they could be fulfilled!

Sorry, but I perceive you as being too "figurative" in your interpretation (an allegorical interpretation, for the most part) of those things which should be taken as historically and grammatically interpreted. A literal interpretation of a passage is OFTEN better than "spiritualizing something away."

So regardless of the testimony of Peter quoted in that link, (2 Peter 1:16-21) the Gospel accounts of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, (with the bright cloud and the voice of the Father at the transfiguration event) still you insist that Yeshua did not fulfill what you did not see with your own eyes of the flesh? And you insist that Yeshua must return again in the flesh to finish what was started in the first Advent? And you have no problem believing that the Father YHWH has literal "feet" (Zechariah 14:3-4) that will one day literally stand upon the Mount of Olives? even though Yeshua clearly states that God is Spirit and those who worship him must do so in spirit and in truth? Yeshua also clearly tells us what both the Law and Prophets truly concern:

Matthew 7:12-15 KJV
12. Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
13. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

No sign shall be given to such a fleshly minded generation of Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes ...
If you are seeing "signs" in the world; beware, it may be that you are about to be deceived with the rest of the world.
And yes, for certain, the false signs and wonders are coming; thanks to the modern shepherds preaching false signs ...

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, daq.

So regardless of the testimony of Peter quoted in that link, (2 Peter 1:16-21) the Gospel accounts of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, (with the bright cloud and the voice of the Father at the transfiguration event) still you insist that Yeshua did not fulfill what you did not see with your own eyes of the flesh? And you insist that Yeshua must return again in the flesh to finish what was started in the first Advent? And you have no problem believing that the Father YHWH has literal "feet" (Zechariah 14:3-4) that will one day literally stand upon the Mount of Olives? even though Yeshua clearly states that God is Spirit and those who worship him must do so in spirit and in truth? Yeshua also clearly tells us what both the Law and Prophets truly concern:

Matthew 7:12-15 KJV
12. Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
13. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

No sign shall be given to such a fleshly minded generation of Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes ...
If you are seeing "signs" in the world; beware, it may be that you are about to be deceived with the rest of the world.
And yes, for certain, the false signs and wonders are coming; thanks to the modern shepherds preaching false signs ...

What the disciples saw on the Mount of Transfiguration was a FORETASTE of what was to come! They were permitted to witness how Yeshua` would come IN THE FUTURE when He returned! The transfiguration was a fulfillment of the words that Yeshua` said just prior to the event:

Matthew 16:27-17:13
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
KJV

Mark 8:38-9:13
38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.
11 And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?
12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.
13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.
KJV

Luke 9:26-36
26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.
27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.
KJV

However, this was NOT the actual Coming itself! Again, this was merely a FORETASTE of what is to come! They had the unique experience of seeing Yeshua` in His glory - His doxa - His apparency or fame, pronounced by the actual light He radiated! This was called just a "vision" and the disciples were told that Yeshua` would come "in the glory of his Father with his angels," which didn't happen on the Mount of Transfiguration. The only ones present were the three disciples and Mosheh and Eliyahu.

Furthermore, I have no problem believing that the Father (YaHuWH) has feet IN HIS EMISSARY, YESHUA`! Remember Yeshua`s own words in Yochanan's (John's) gospel:

John 5:21-23
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
KJV

YaHuWH has feet because His SON has feet! HE is the one who will stand on the Mount of Olives!

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Concerning the believers that Christ fights for in Zechariah 14:1-5:

1. How did they avoid taking the mark for the 3 1/2 years of the GT?
2. How did they feed themselves for 3 1/2 years wihtout the mark?
3. When did they get to Jerusalem?
4. How did they get to Jerusalem?

I am pretty tired right now ..... so my weak reply is that it is the unbelieving nations that God sends to raze jerusalem (Israel)

Then a little bit later he sends plagues and nastiness upon those same (unbelieving) nations.

So either I have misunderstood your question , or I have misunderstood Zechariah 14.

talk later
Arnie

 

[daq]

Shalom, daq.


What the disciples saw on the Mount of Transfiguration was a FORETASTE of what was to come! They were permitted to witness how Yeshua` would come IN THE FUTURE when He returned! The transfiguration was a fulfillment of the words that Yeshua` said just prior to the event:

Matthew 16:27-17:13
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
KJV

Mark 8:38-9:13
38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.
11 And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?
12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.
13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.
KJV

Luke 9:26-36
26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.
27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.
KJV

However, this was NOT the actual Coming itself! Again, this was merely a FORETASTE of what is to come! They had the unique experience of seeing Yeshua` in His glory - His doxa - His apparency or fame, pronounced by the actual light He radiated! This was called just a "vision" and the disciples were told that Yeshua` would come "in the glory of his Father with his angels," which didn't happen on the Mount of Transfiguration. The only ones present were the three disciples and Mosheh and Eliyahu.

Furthermore, I have no problem believing that the Father (YaHuWH) has feet IN HIS EMISSARY, YESHUA`! Remember Yeshua`s own words in Yochanan's (John's) gospel:

John 5:21-23
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
KJV

YaHuWH has feet because His SON has feet! HE is the one who will stand on the Mount of Olives!

It is good to see that now you suddenly agree with most everything said in the first thread but please note also that Yeshua already stood upon the Mount of Olives, (which was also already stated). And yes, even as you say, these things were a foretaste and also for our benefit to be written down; for that which is flesh always comes first and then that which is Spirit, and this again is to each one in his or her own appointed times.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Concerning the believers that Christ fights for in Zechariah 14:1-5:

1. How did they avoid taking the mark for the 3 1/2 years of the GT?
2. How did they feed themselves for 3 1/2 years wihtout the mark?
3. When did they get to Jerusalem?
4. How did they get to Jerusalem?

All of the questions you raised are based on a myth that has come about because of a faulty translation in many bibles.
Search the Internet for zechariah + azal + yasul to really understand what is going on with those verses.

 

[JosyWales]

I have to wonder what guysmith is making of all this, but since it is Retro that is rebutting my info, I guess Ill respond to that (Retro's words in Orange):

Well, since the woman in Revelation refers to Isra'el, are you saying that Isra'el is the "true church?"

As Retro well knows, I have spent much time showing that the woman of Revelation is a real person, not some symbolic entity such as the "True Church", which is something that has been made up and nothing in the bible says this is true. It is an assumption that must be made to fit the prophecy if you wish to believe that this has already happened as Retro does. As anyone who has read my chart knows, I have good reason to think that this interpretation is erronious.

Revelation 12:6 and 14 are different by comparison. Revelation 12:6 simply says that the woman (Isra'el) is fed in the place in the desolation God prepared for her for 1,260 days. However, Revelation 12:14 says that she is nourished in the desolation for 3.5 times (years) FROM THE FACE OF THE SERPENT! They are NOT necessarily the same time span! They're only SUPERFICIALLY the same length of time! However, if one gets beyond the general to the specifics, there's obviously a difference in the two time periods because they are said differently!

You have to be kidding me. You are actually trying to say that the woman who is fed in Revelation 12:6 in the wilderness is NOT the same woman who is nourished from the face of the serpent in Revelation 12:14?

I hate to point this out to you but being fed and being nourished is the same thing. Revelation 12:6 says where it happens and Revelation 12:14 says why it happens. You then try to say that because the same thing (the time period) is said differently in these two places, they cannot be the same. That makes no sense, especially when you can see the obvious relationship between 1260 days and 3 1/2 times. The reason this is done is because God is making it clear that when you see the word 'month' being used in these prophecies, you are to understand that it means '30 days'. This not only mimics the actual Hebrew counting of months but also gives us biblical proof as to how God wants us to count it.

Retro then comes up with this:

3.5 cycles (years) x 365.2422 days/cycle (year) = 1,278.3477 days. That's 18+ days longer than the 1,260 days. How can this be? Simple! They CAME WITH SUPPLIES, enough for 2.5 weeks!

What the heck is that?

The whole point of what God is showing us here is that the 'times' listed in both Daniel and Revelation signifies that 1260 days is equal to 3 1/2 times (ie; 1260 days divided by 3 1/2 times = 30 days each which then equals the 42 months, thus showing it is the same time period) is NOT to be confused with real years, which are based on the solar rotation of the sun, which the Jews used to count their years, unlike their way of using the Moon to count their months.

As far as that part about supplies, it is something you must have found down a dark hole someplace, because it has no biblical support. If anyone does not understand what I am saying here, the last post of my "Simple Chart of End Time Events" lays all this out pretty clearly with full explaination.

And, just for thoroughness, the 42 "moonths" are yet a DIFFERENT time period! 42 "moonths" x 29.5 days/"moonth" = 1,239 days at most, although this may be a bit more nebulous in its interpretation. This is the time period in which the beast would have free reign and the Gentiles would "tread underfoot" the holy city, Yerushalayim. It is LESS time than the other two periods to provide a BUFFER for the protection and provision of Isra'el in the desolation. They're not going to fly out to the desolation on the very same day that the beast takes power! That would be futile!

Moonths? Oh my gosh .

Now he has whole new words for us. "although this may be a bit more nebulous in its interpretation" is a bit of an understatement. Retro does understand that the 42 months are connected to the Beasts reign, but seems to not see how it can be the same as 1260 days or 3 1/2 times, even though God has gone to such great lengths to spell it out.

However, since simple math appears to be too hard to follow, perhaps there is a better way to show this.

In the following two passages, the bible is absolute that the time the two witnesses and the woman is in the wilderness being fed and sheltered from the Beast are exactly the same:

Rev 11:3 And I will give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

At the same time it tells us this it also tells us that the 1260 days are the same as the 42 months:

Rev 11:2 And the court which is without the temple leave without, and measure it not; for it hath been given unto the nations: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Rev 11:3 And I will give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

You cannot get any more straight forward than that. Of course at this point you can simply divide 1260 days by the 42 months and get 3 1/2 times, but God wants to make sure that you truely understand this relationship so he adds more info and this is where he adds that the woman is fed in the wilderness and is nourished from the face of the Beast, first saying 1260 days, then saying 3 1/2 times, now tying it into the prophecy of Daniel 12:7.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Rev 12:14 And there were given to the woman the two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness unto her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Which directly ties into:

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half; and when they have made an end of breaking in pieces the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

What this is telling us, in the most clear fashion that God can provide, is that the time of the 2 witnesses, the harboring of the woman by the Holy People in the Wilderness who are somehow being fed and protected themselves by God and the reign of the Beast all happen at the same time. This makes absolute sense. Indeed, you would almost have to be blind not to see it.

I dont have to reinterprete what the Bible says by changing the times as they are spoken of into something completely different and I dont have to assign arbitrary events in the past which cannot be proven and are at best assumptions to events in the book of either Revelation or Daniel. Not only that, it is easy to understand, which cannot be said by most of these others here. Above that, it all fits perfectly as my chart shows as well as covers all the bases the bible mentions.