The Case for the Sinless Ever-Virgin Mary.

[Soulx3]

But the bible declared ALL have sinned (except Jesus) and fallen short of the glory of God. No parentheses no exclusions.

Actually, in verse 1 Pet. 2:22, it doesn't say, "only Christ committed no sin," but rather, "Christ ... Who committed no sin." Jesus, including, for example, children who have died without having committed sins, are exceptions to the "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:22). For these reasons, Rom. 3:22 isn't proof Mary sinned, nor that She can't also be an exception.

 

[Soulx3]

(Hebrews 4:15), never committed a sin (2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 John 3:5). The apostle Peter stated it clearly: “He committed no sin and no deceit was found in His mouth” (1 Peter 2:22). Indeed, as Jesus Christ is God, He has no capacity to sin.

Nowhere in those verses does it say "only Jesus never committed sins." In 1 Pet. 2:22, neither does it say, "only Christ committed no sin," but rather, "Christ ... Who committed no sin." Jesus, including, for example, children who have died without having committed sins, are exceptions to the "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:22). For these reasons, Rom. 3:22 isn't proof Mary sinned, nor that She can't also be an exception.

 

[Soulx3]

Pearl’s words are not required to appear in Scripture to be TRUE.

Your fellow protestant's words are not required to appear in Scripture to be true, huh? Yet, you protestants require others to provide scriptural verses that explicitly appear in Scripture for what they believe in order to be true.

Double standard.

Rom 3:
[23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; <—- ALL MEN.

EXCLUSION…ONLY JESUS.

Nowhere in Scripture does it say "only Jesus never committed sins." In 1 Pet. 2:22, neither does it say, "only Christ committed no sin," but rather, "Christ ... Who committed no sin." Jesus, including, for example, children who have died without having committed sins, are exceptions to the "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:22). For these reasons, Rom. 3:22 isn't proof Mary sinned, nor that She can't also be an exception.

 

[Adrift]

I believe that, regardless of our competing scriptural decoding, common sense would conclude that, had Mary been sinless, there should have been a plethora of passages shouting that fact. There are none. She was a common sinning woman. It makes perfect sense in order to create the Jesus-human amalgam for the God connection to humanity. Mary would have to be one of us. Just because she wasn't sinless, that does not mean that she wasn't a great person.

 

[Pearl]

1 John 1:8–10.
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.


The “we” in this passage includes Mary, the mother of Jesus. To claim Mary is without sin is an example of “deceit.”

 

[RedFan]

You can stop if you want. I'm choosing to respond to the following because I can, and the right thing to do is address falsehood with the truth:



The point you're missing is since Jesus, God Incarnate, could not be contaminated by sinful (impure) humans by touch because of His glorified state and going to be in the presence of God the Father (Jn. 20:17), Mary of Joseph would've had to be completely pure in order to receive the Holy Spirit Himself and not contaminate God Incarnate taking form within Her.

You are equating Jesus's gestation period with the period of Jesus's "glorified state" in John 20:17. From the time He was born to the time He adopted that post-resurrection "glorified state," you are fine with His being in contact with sinful human flesh -- but while IN the womb, you declare Him to be as susceptible to contamination as He was when He encountered Mary Magdalene in John 20:17. WHY? What is it about Jesus "taking form within her" that rendered God Incarnate prone to contamination from sinful flesh, but the moment He passed through the birth canal He suddenly became immune to contamination from touching other humans?

 

[Soulx3]

1 John 1:8–10.
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.


The “we” in this passage includes Mary, the mother of Jesus. To claim Mary is without sin is an example of “deceit.”

The "we" even in that verse excludes Jesus, including, for example, children who have died without committing sins. For these reasons, neither is 1. Jn. 1:8-10 proof that Mary sinned, nor that She can't also be an exception.

 

[Adrift]

The "we" even in that verse excludes Jesus, including, for example, children who have died without committing sins. For these reasons, neither is 1. Jn. 1:8-10 proof that Mary sinned, nor that She can't also be an exception.

Babies are non sequitur to the statement as they are not claiming anything. If Mary were sinless the scriptures would be sounding trumpets for her glory throughout the Bible. The scriptures sure as heck wouldn't hide or ignore that if it were true. You can wish all you want but you can't change the obvious and sensible truth.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Actually, in verse 1 Pet. 2:22, it doesn't say, "only Christ committed no sin," but rather, "Christ ... Who committed no sin." Jesus, including, for example, children who have died without having committed sins, are exceptions to the "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:22). For these reasons, Rom. 3:22 isn't proof Mary sinned, nor that She can't also be an exception.

Yes but Scripture gives no account of Mary being sinless. In light of the fact that Scripture does say "all have sinned" and gives no exception for any mere human, that settles it.

Also Mary called God her Savior, if she was born without a sin nature and never sinned, she would not need saving.

 

[Pearl]

The "we" even in that verse excludes Jesus, including, for example, children who have died without committing sins. For these reasons, neither is 1. Jn. 1:8-10 proof that Mary sinned, nor that She can't also be an exception.

Okay then @Soulx3 if you you prefer to believe the deceit then I hope you will find blessings. But i would say to you:
Psalm 95:8
“Do not harden your heart.

 

[Soulx3]

Okay then @Soulx3 if you you prefer to believe the deceit then I hope you will find blessings. But i would say to you:
Psalm 95:8
“Do not harden your heart.

It's not that I'm hardening my heart, but rather matter-of-factly showing you that "we" even in that verse excludes Jesus, including, for example, children who have died without committing sins. For these reasons, neither is 1. Jn. 1:8-10 proof that Mary sinned, nor that She can't also be an exception. If you refuse to abide by your own standard that you apply to everyone else, then so be it.

 

[Soulx3]

Yes but Scripture gives no account of Mary being sinless. In light of the fact that Scripture does say "all have sinned" and gives no exception for any mere human, that settles it.

Also Mary called God her Savior, if she was born without a sin nature and never sinned, she would not need saving.

Nowhere in Scripture does it say "only Jesus never committed sins." In 1 Pet. 2:22, neither does it say, "only Christ committed no sin," but rather, "Christ ... Who committed no sin." Jesus, including, for example, children who have died without having committed sins, are exceptions to the "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:22). For these reasons, Rom. 3:22 isn't proof Mary sinned, nor that She can't also be an exception. And God is Mary's Savior because he saved Her by preserving Her from inheriting the stain of original sin.

 

[Soulx3]

Babies are non sequitur to the statement as they are not claiming anything.

Nowhere in Scripture does it say "only Jesus never committed sins." In 1 Pet. 2:22, neither does it say, "only Christ committed no sin," but rather, "Christ ... Who committed no sin." Any human who hasnt committed sin, such as, for example, Jesus and children, are exceptions to the "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:22). For these reasons, Rom. 3:22 isn't proof Mary sinned, nor that She can't also be an exception.

 

[Soulx3]

If Mary were sinless the scriptures would be sounding trumpets for her glory throughout the Bible. The scriptures sure as heck wouldn't hide or ignore that if it were true. You can wish all you want but you can't change the obvious and sensible truth.

Scripture doesn't hide it which is why I'm not wishing. Protestants are the ones who apply the standard "x must be explicitely stated in Scripture in order to be true," but they don't apply it to themselves regarding their beliefs. If they did, they wouldn't be stating Mary sinned as if it were explicitely stated in Scripture, because its not as I've shown.

 

[Adrift]

Nowhere in Scripture does it say "only Jesus never committed sins." In 1 Pet. 2:22, neither does it say, "only Christ committed no sin," but rather, "Christ ... Who committed no sin." Any human who hasnt committed sin, such as, for example, Jesus and children, are exceptions to the "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:22). For these reasons, Rom. 3:22 isn't proof Mary sinned, nor that She can't also be an exception.

Do you believe that the earth is flat? Or that we really didn't land on the moon? Or that Elvis is alive? Just curious.

 

[Soulx3]

Do you believe that the earth is flat? Or that we really didn't land on the moon? Or that Elvis is alive? Just curious.

Nope. Thank you for participating in this thread.

 

[Pearl]

"only Jesus never committed sins."

It isn't about not committing sins it is about the fact that only Jesus was born without sin because he wasn't part of the consequence of Adam's disobedience which led to all humans who were born in the natural way falling short of God's perfect standard and with a sinful nature.

Jesus is without sin because he is God so for Mary to also be without sin she too would have to be God and she isn't and to compare Mary's human nature with Jesus' divine nature is completely wrong. Almost blasphemous.

 

[Pearl]

It's not that I'm hardening my heart, but rather matter-of-factly showing you that "we" even in that verse excludes Jesus, including, for example, children who have died without committing sins. For these reasons, neither is 1. Jn. 1:8-10 proof that Mary sinned, nor that She can't also be an exception. If you refuse to abide by your own standard that you apply to everyone else, then so be it.

It isn't about committing sin, it's about being without sin which is a different thing entirely.

 

[Soulx3]

You are equating Jesus's gestation period with the period of Jesus's "glorified state" in John 20:17. From the time He was born to the time He adopted that post-resurrection "glorified state," you are fine with His being in contact with sinful human flesh -- but while IN the womb, you declare Him to be as susceptible to contamination as He was when He encountered Mary Magdalene in John 20:17. WHY? What is it about Jesus "taking form within her" that rendered God Incarnate prone to contamination from sinful flesh, but the moment He passed through the birth canal He suddenly became immune to contamination from touching other humans?

You're the one who's arguing that God Incarnate living among sinful humans is the same as God Incarnating Himself within a sinful human. So, I'm giving you an example where God Incarnate was with a sinful human, Who He had lived among and spent time with, yet He told Her not to touch Him because He was going to be in the presence of God the Father. Why is being uncontaminated by sin and impurity significant in the presence of God the Father? Because God is the Most Holy and Pure One. It's because God is the Most Holy and Pure One that not any and every sinful human was allowed in the Holy of Holies, but rather the High Priest, and even he was a sinful human. It's also why there won't be humans still impure with sins existing in Heaven for eternity with Him. The list goes on. Therefore, aside from the explicit and supportive statements from Scripture for the Mother of God Incarnate being preserved from inheriting the stain of original sin and never having committed sins, it's illogical and blasphemous to think that God, the Most Holy and Pure One, would willingly Incarnate Himself in, and make His Mother, a sinful and impure human.

 

[Soulx3]

It isn't about committing sin, it's about being without sin which is a different thing entirely.

If you don't commit sin then you're without sin, i.e., sinless.

It isn't about not committing sins it is about the fact that only Jesus was born without sin because he wasn't part of the consequence of Adam's disobedience which led to all humans who were born in the natural way falling short of God's perfect standard and with a sinful nature.

Jesus is without sin because he is God so for Mary to also be without sin she too would have to be God and she isn't and to compare Mary's human nature with Jesus' divine nature is completely wrong. Almost blasphemous.

Jesus, God Incarnate, fully divine and fully human, didn't inherit the stain of original sin because Mary didn't have it. Mary is second to Jesus because He preserved Her soul from inheriting the stain of original sin. God Thought of creating the soul that was to be the soul of the Mother of God Incarnate, and because He knew Her soul would've been subject to the law of the first parents, He preserved it from inheriting the stain of original sin, and thus it became an immaculate soul capable of possessing the fullness of His Grace, then He infused it into the embryo at the moment of Her conception. These factors, coupled with being conceived by and born of two Just human parents and having a natural good will, resulted in Mary being without sin, and thus a worthy dwelling place for God Incarnate, the Son of God, the Messiah, the Savior, the most Holy and Perfect One, to take form in and live a divinely Holy life with in Spirit and Body on earth and in Heaven.

It's blasphemous to think that God, the Most Holy and Pure One, Who abhors sin (not the sinner), willfully wanted to Incarnate Himself in and have for His Mother, a sinful and impure human.