False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

Douggg said:

The winepress is metaphoric,

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Ahhhh.. after you insisted that the book of Revelation must be understood literally. Now you admitted that the winepress is metaphoric?? Gotcha.

Douggg said:

but the amount of blood shed is not.

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Lol!!! Even the physical blood of all slain won’t be enough. That is not what God takes about!! You need to find out what the blood signifies in scripture. And the purpose of horse’s brides. Geez!!!

Douggg said:

You do not comprehend the size of the armies that will gather at that time.

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No you do not comprehend God’s word cuz you do not have spiritual discernment what the number 200,000,000 signifies.

PinSeeker said:

Ah, the King James. It's not "bad," or "wrong," of course, but the antiquated language makes it a little harder for our modern ears to understand in places. If you would, consider the ESV or the NASB, which translate this verse respectively as follows:

• "But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."
• "But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

If we were to think of this 'escape' as a removal, then Jesus, in Luke 21, would seem to be saying that we somehow remove ourselves (rather than Him removing us in a "rapture"), which is a ridiculous thought. I would say that what Jesus says here is along the same lines as what Paul says (after Jesus's crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension, of course) in Ephesians 6:11-18 ~

"Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication."

It could also be closely correlated to what the prophet Joel says, in Joel 2:28-32 ~

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions. Even on the male and female servants in those days I will pour out My Spirit. And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls."


Understood. But, The Light, I believe the same about you, my friend.


Maybe, but maybe it only seems so.


Um, yes.

Grace and peace to you.

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Pure 14k baloney


"" ..counted WORTHY to ESCAPE the things about to come upon the world""

ἐκφεύγω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: ekpheugó
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-fyoo'-go)
Definition: to flee away
Usage: I flee out, away, escape

Kataxioo';
to deem worthy
Original Word: καταξιόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: kataxioó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ax-ee-o'-o)
Definition: to deem worthy
Usage: I deem (count) worthy


Thank you KJV for properly translating a no brainer.

Keraz said:

An even better translation is the Revised English Bible, 1987 Oxford Press.
Luke 21:36 Be on the alert, praying at all times for strength to pass safely through all that is coming.....
This rendering does not contradict the previous verse, which says; that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over.

Rabid rapturists add to their error by saying; Oh; everyone in the world doesn't mean us, as we will be gone to heaven! Unfortunately, they can provide no scriptural support for such a pretentious belief.
The stupidity of the pre, mid or post rapture controversy, shows what a monstrous lie the whole 'rapture to heaven' idea really is.

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BIBLE BUTCHERY big time.
14k baloney
"" ..counted WORTHY to ESCAPE the things about to come upon the world""

ἐκφεύγω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: ekpheugó
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-fyoo'-go)
Definition: to flee away
Usage: I flee out, away, escape

Kataxioo';
to deem worthy
Original Word: καταξιόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: kataxioó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ax-ee-o'-o)
Definition: to deem worthy
Usage: I deem (count) worthy


Thank you KJV for properly translating a no brainer

So sad
Doctrines that REQUIRE changing Gods Word.
I am appalled

rebuilder 454 said:

Pure 14k baloney

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LOL! 24k (Biblical) truth, Rebuilder.

rebuilder 454 said:

"" ..counted WORTHY to ESCAPE the things about to come upon the world""

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Yes, we are deemed worthy ~ declared righteous by God ~ because of Christ's worthiness and righteousness, which is imputed to us (credited to us, like Abraham) upon our salvation, which is, of course, of the LORD. This is His justification. And like Paul says in Romans 8, "those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified."

And yes, we escape the wrath of God in the sense that we avoid it, are spared of it, because we are covered by the blood of Christ ~ in the same sense that the firstborn Hebrew sons were spared in the Passover because of the blood of the lambs without blemish on the two doorposts and the lintel of the Hebrews' houses in Exodus 12.

rebuilder 454 said:

I am appalled

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And you should be... at your own wooden understanding of some of these things.

Grace and peace to you.

Douggg said:

Tim, the destruction of the kings of the earth armies will be on the last day of the 7 years, the day of Jesus's return. There is no 42 months that follows. What follows is the 1000 year millennium rule of Christ.




View attachment 44921

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You are missing the point.

Either Revelation 14 happens with that winepress.

Or Revelation 19 happens with that winepress.

God only kills all the gleanings one time. God cannot kill every last human on earth twice.

If Revelation 14 happens, there will be no 42 months, and no Armageddon. All will be dead the Sunday, 8 days after the 7th Trumpet sounds.

The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. Jesus and the angels have been on the earth gathering the final harvest during the first 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders.

When the 7th Trumpet sounds, Jesus is announced the king over every nation, and time is up. After the 7 days of celebration, the winepress in Revelation 14 happens. All Adam's dead corruptible flesh is physically dead causing that river of blood. Then the Millennium starts as that kingdom is forever.

However in the midst of the week of the 7th Trumpet, Satan and angels are cast out of heaven. That is when God confirms the Atonement Covenant with King Jesus about the many. Only God knows the future. If God extends time for 42 months it will be for those who will be beheaded, not for Satan's benefit. Armageddon only happens if there are beheaded people, otherwise all humanity die per Revelation 14, and there will be no beheaded people, no 42 months, no 8th kingdom, and no Armageddon as the winepress of God's wrath.

Zechariah 14 happens at the 6th Seal. Zechariah 14 does not even allow for Satan's 42 months, nor the battle of Armageddon. Zechariah 14 goes directly from the 6th Seal into the Millennium Kingdom. No Trumpets are mentioned, no Thunders, and certainly no 7 vials poured out. Jesus comes to the Mount of Olives in the 6th Seal. Then the final harvest happens while Jesus is on the earth. That is what Matthew 13 declares:

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels."

Jesus and Satan are gathering their kingdoms at the same time on the earth.

Matthew 25 is not after Armageddon, but after the 6th Seal:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

The sheep and goats are not removed after Armageddon. Everyone is dead. The sheep and goats are removed after the 6th Seal, during the first 6 Trumpets. The wheat and tares harvest is the 7 Thunders before the 7th Trumpet sounds, declaring time over.

Satan's 42 months is an extension of time for the elect who will be beheaded, still confirmed as being covered by the Atonement Covenant.

Those beheaded are not beheaded prior to the 7th Trumpet. They are not beheaded after Armageddon. If Revelation 14 happens, no one will be left on earth to be beheaded. Revelation 14 happens by the end of the week of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

"And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Time is over when the 7th Trumpet sounds, and Jesus is now the 7th King of the 7th World Wide Kingdom. None of Adam's flesh lives on the earth when the 7th Trumpet stops sounding. Only one winepress completes that task.

You claim the 7th Trumpet covers this whole period of time. No! The 7th Trumpet is a week of days fulfilling Daniel 9:27. That is why the mystery is complete during the days, a week of days, of the 7th Trumpet, not a week of years for the 7th Trumpet. Satan's 42 months is not Jacob's trouble many call the Great Tribulation.

The end of those 42 months, when Satan kills the 2 witnesses, cannot be construed as Matthew 24:29-30 when it says the son of man appears after the tribulation of those days.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven."

This is not Armageddon. The stars fell from heaven in the 6th Seal, fulfilling Zechariah 14. The powers of the heavens were shaken when the heavens rolled back as a scroll. The winepress does not happen in the 7th Seal. The end is after the 7th Trumpet starts sounding. The final harvest is not the winepress of Revelation 14, nor the winepress of Armageddon in Revelation 19. The final harvest is the judgment of the sheep and goats along with the 7 Thunders, which is the wheat and tares harvest. That all takes place with Jesus and the angels on the earth before the 7th Trumpet starts to sound.

TribulationSigns said:

No you do not comprehend God’s word cuz you do not have spiritual discernment what the number 200,000,000 signifies.

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I would say that 200,000,000 signifies 200,00,000. Just like 144,000 signifies 144,000. If you have come up with a different conclusion I'd love to hear it.

Timtofly said:

ither Revelation 14 happens with that winepress.

Or Revelation 19 happens with that winepress.

God only kills all the gleanings one time. God cannot kill every last human on earth twice.

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Tim, it is not an either/or situation. Revelation 14:20 and Revelation 19:21 both take place on the same day that the winepress of God's wrath takes place.

And it is the armies of the king's of the earth, not the entire population of the nations, that will be killed. Matthew 24:31 is the gathering of the remaining Jews out of the population of those nations., back to the land of Israel. Those nations will still have populations of people, albeit severely reduced in number because of the great tribulation.

Revelation 14:20 and Revelation 19:21 take place at the same time - the day of Jesus's return. Revelation 19:21 takes place within Jerusalem and vicinity. Revelation 14:20 takes place in the rest of Israel.

Timtofly said:

The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. Jesus and the angels have been on the earth gathering the final harvest during the first 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders.

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The 6th seal event is the sign of the Son of Man in heaven - Jesus, sickle in hand.

The kings of the earth, terrified by it, will at the urging of the beast-king, the false prophet, and Satan will assemble their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus. They are given 45 days. During which time, they also have their armies surround Jerusalem, and take half of the city as hostages.

Then at the end of 45 days, Jesus descends to earth, Jerusalem, and destroys those armies. And at the same time, the angel with the sickle destroys the rest of the armies of the kings of the earth, throughout Israel.

Douggg said:

The 6th seal event is the sign of the Son of Man in heaven - Jesus, sickle in hand.

The kings of the earth, terrified by it, will at the urging of the beast-king, the false prophet, and Satan will assemble their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus. They are given 45 days. During which time, they also have their armies surround Jerusalem, and take half of the city as hostages.

Then at the end of 45 days, Jesus descends to earth, Jerusalem, and destroys those armies. And at the same time, the angel with the sickle destroys the rest of the armies of the kings of the earth, throughout Israel.

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This mish/mash confuses 3 separate events together:
1/ The Sixth Seal is the next Prophesied event, the world changer to commence the end tiles.
2/ The conquest of Jerusalem will occur at the mid point of the final 7 years. 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns.
3/ Armageddon is the Seventh Bowl, at, or immediately prior to Jesus Returning.

Timtofly said:

Either Revelation 14 happens with that winepress.

Or Revelation 19 happens with that winepress.

God only kills all the gleanings one time. God cannot kill every last human on earth twice.

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The Prophecy of the river of blood, is allegorical.
Revelation 14:17-20 refers to the Sixth Seal depopulation of the entire Middle East region. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Joel 2:32

Douggg said:

Apparently you have no military experience. The gathering is staging - preparation for battle.

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The verse shows they are staging there for the battle. Why aren't you accepting what is written?

The Light said:

They have obviously LEARNED the song. The real question is ...........Are the 144,000 redeemed from the earth or are they still on the mountain?

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Being redeemed from the Earth does not mean they are taken away from the Earrth and again, there are no rocks and dirt in heaven. They are on the mountain that is on the Earth. The 144k are learning the song while the harpers are singing according to the bible.

ewq1938 said:

The verse shows they are staging there for the battle. Why aren't you accepting what is written?

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Joel 3:12-17, the winepress of God's wrath in those verses being at Jerusalem means nothing to you ? Where do you think the valley of Jehoshaphat is ?

ewq1938 said:

Being redeemed from the Earth does not mean they are taken away from the Earrth and again, there are no rocks and dirt in heaven. They are on the mountain that is on the Earth. The 144k are learning the song while the harpers are singing according to the bible.

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A mountain signifies a Kingdom. Thus, the Kingdom of God that Mount Zion represents. Not some random physical mountain or a piece of land on Earth.

TribulationSigns said:

A mountain signifies a Kingdom.

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My understanding is different. From my understanding, a mountain represents a "religion" associated with that mountain where many people placed their idols to worship.

Daniel also stated that the rock, untouched by humans' hands will come down from heaven during the time of these kings will grow to become a great mountain and fill the whole earth.

Daniel also stated that during the time of these kings that the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

My two cents worth

TribulationSigns said:

A mountain signifies a Kingdom.

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In Rev 17 a mountain is a head of a beast. In Daniel a beast is a kingdom, not the head of the beast. A head/mountain is land, where a kingdom or more is located. The head/mountain is not symbolic of a kingdom itself.

TribulationSigns said:

Thus, the Kingdom of God that Mount Zion represents. Not some random physical mountain or a piece of land on Earth.

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Mt Zion is a real mountain near Jerusalem. It can be literal about that literal mountain, or it can have a symbolic meaning of the capital of the kingdom of God, Jerusalem but not the entire kingdom.


Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

The Lamb is Jesus not an actual lamb so that's literally Jesus being there, making the mount literal and the people literally physically related to the various tribes of Israel. The next verse talks about what happen in heaven. It's all very literal.

Douggg said:

Joel 3:12-17, the winepress of God's wrath in those verses being at Jerusalem means nothing to you ?

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You are mashing up things from unrelated scriptures as if they are all one. The winepress is in Rev and it is symbolic as well as the level of blood. A lot of blood will be spilled when Christ returns but not literally to the certain level compared to a horse etc. This is also not specified to be happening at Jerusalem as you claim.

ewq1938 said:

Being redeemed from the Earth does not mean they are taken away from the Earrth and again, there are no rocks and dirt in heaven. They are on the mountain that is on the Earth. The 144k are learning the song while the harpers are singing according to the bible.

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The Bible I'm reading says no man can learn that song but the 144,000.....................Which are redeemed FROM the earth

You just can't admit that those 144,000 are raptured off that mountain to heaven. You obviously don't understand what first fruits are. You harvest the first fruits. They don't stay in the field. You also obviously don't know where the throne of God is located. I'll give you a hint, its not on that mountain.

Revelation 14
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

You can argue all you want, but the facts of the Word of God say you are wrong............again.

TribulationSigns said:

No you do not comprehend God’s word cuz you do not have spiritual discernment what the number 200,000,000 signifies.

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So what do you discern that the 200,000,000 signifies????????????

ewq1938 said:

You are mashing up things from unrelated scriptures as if they are all one. The winepress is in Rev and it is symbolic as well as the level of blood. A lot of blood will be spilled when Christ returns but not literally to the certain level compared to a horse etc. This is also not specified to be happening at Jerusalem as you claim.

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Revelation 19, Zechariah 14, Joel 3 take place at Jerusalem the day Jesus returns. In Revelation 14, Jesus is given a sickle. And an angel is given a sickle. Jesus will slay them in Jerusalem and vicinity. The angel will slay them in the rest of Israel at the same time.

I think you should study Joel 3:12-17, and research where the valley of Jehoshaphat is.

Armageddon is at a different location, north of Jerusalem, and the gathering place of the kings of the earth armies will be on the plain of Esdraelon.

Jay Ross said:

From my understanding, a mountain represents a "religion" associated with that mountain where many people placed their idols to worship.

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Show me a Scripture where God defined a mountain as religion.

Jay Ross said:

Daniel also stated that the rock, untouched by humans' hands will come down from heaven during the time of these kings will grow to become a great mountain and fill the whole earth.

Daniel also stated that during the time of these kings that the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

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Kingdom of God, indeed.

The Light said:

The Bible I'm reading says no man can learn that song but the 144,000.

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So you were wrong about the 144k doing the singing. That's progress.

The Light said:

....................Which are redeemed FROM the earth

You just can't admit that those 144,000 are raptured off that mountain to heaven.

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The passage has them on the mountain not in heaven or leaving the mount and traveling to heaven.

The Light said:

You obviously don't understand what first fruits are. You harvest the first fruits. They don't stay in the field.

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Strawman fallacy.

The Light said:

You also obviously don't know where the throne of God is located. I'll give you a hint, its not on that mountain.

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Another strawman.

The Light said:

Revelation 14
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

You can argue all you want, but the facts of the Word of God say you are wrong............again.

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No, your interpretations are wrong. You don't have to be right before the throne physically to be "without fault before the throne".