Where does the Pope get his authority?

Titus said:

The only apostles were the ones we read in the Bible. Therefore those men are who Paul MUST
be referring to.

Notice what Pau says,
2Thessalonians 2:15,
- therefore brethren stand fast and hold the traditions which ye have been taught...

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I see 2 Thess. 3:6 as indicating that the traditions Paul had in mind in this letter were those taught BY PAUL and those he brought to Thessalonika with him (Silas, Timothy). Why MUST it be the apostles' tradition instead?

RedFan said:

I see 2 Thess. 3:6 as indicating that the traditions Paul had in mind in this letter were those taught BY PAUL and those he brought to Thessalonika with him (Silas, Timothy). Why MUST it be the apostles' tradition instead?

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Are you a two gospels dispensationalist?

Titus said:

Are you a two gospels dispensationalist?

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No. I think Paul's gospel is largely (not entirely) consistent with that of the original apostles -- although he did not learn at their feet. But even if the two "traditions" largely coalesce, it does not follow that the "tradition" referenced in Second Thessalonians is the "apostolic" one. That the Thessalonians heard only from Paul/Timothy/Silas seems overwhelmingly probable to me. So why should we think Paul's readership thought that Paul's reference was to the apostles as your post suggests, or that Paul intended them to think that way?

I'm not saying you are wrong. Only that you might be. But your statement that the apostles "are who Paul MUST be referring to" seems pretty dogmatic, so maybe I am missing something. (It won't be the first time!)

Brakelite said:

Well, the church was wrong, in many many ways. What was Luther's 90 odd thesis all about that he nailed to the church door? Have you read them?

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Brakelite,

Yes, I have read them and studied them. Have you studied them?

The 95 thesis by Luther do not mention either justification by faith alone or doing theology by Scripture alone. Does that mean that at the time he came up with those 95 complaints that The Church wasn't wrong about the "faith alone" or "justification by faith alone" doctrine that he created in his brain later? Or did God enlighten Luther several years later and reveal to Luther the truth about these things?

Do you agree with Luther on the 95 and follow his teachings? Or is Luther wrong about some things?

Brakelite said:

I agree with that. We just don't agree as to who has that rule. Priests, prelates, bishops, pastors, who do not themselves live according to truth?

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No, you don't agree with the passage from Scripture that says "Obey those that rule over you'. You have made that very clear in past posts. You have made that clear in this very response. If YOU decide that those who rule over you are not living according to the truth then YOU will not obey them. That means that YOU have decided what the truth is.

Can you really not see how your statement lacks any logic and makes YOU the arbiter of truth?

Brakelite said:

And when the church lives and behaves and teaches theories and fables similar to a pagan and tax collector? God gave you a modicum of intelligence to know that when the church itself fulfills what the apostle Paul warned about, the great falling away...
KJV 2 Timothy 3:1-5
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Such was the state of the church in the time of the reformers.

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Lol...you crack me up brakelite. Read that very first verse brakelite. It says IN THE LAST DAYS!!

Sooooooo The Reformers came along to save everyone during the last days to give Christians the TRUTH? The Reformers were saving Christianity by disagreeing with The Church on some things but holding fast to other things that The Church taught. Even though the Reformers ALSO disagreed with each other, but they were still saving Christians as long as they didn't join The Catholic Church and joined their church? Each individual Reformer had the "truth" given to them from God, even though all their "truths" were different "truths"???

And then your men came along in the 1800's, if I remember correctly, and THEY are the ones who were given the TRUTH by God???? Even though their truth was different than the God given truths of the Reformers and The Catholic Church, THEY really really really really really I swear to God had the TRUTH?

But yet YOU still stand by the Reformers and their actions even though you (your church) disagree with the Reformers? You make no sense brakelite..........

Here is the truth brakelite. The PROTESTant Reformers divided The One Church that had One Doctrine. And you joined a church that PROTESTED the original PROTESTORS. Because YOU decided that the men of your church were right and everyone else was wrong.....well, that is if YOU....by your own admitance..... say they are right then they are right. Which means YOU will never be wrong.

Behold said:

The Letters of the Apostles... Are the NT.

Not "what the Church Father's said"

And you dont have to talk about "what is not in the canon"... ok?

No need.

Just These..

And when you want to know what is the "Doctrine for the Church", then you read Paul's LETTERS (Epistles).

• Gospel According to Matthew
• Gospel According to Mark
• Gospel According to Luke
• Gospel According to John
• Acts of the Apostles
• Letter of Paul to the Romans
• Letters of Paul to the Corinthians
  • I Corinthians
  • II Corinthians
• Letter of Paul to the Galatians
• Letter of Paul to the Ephesians
• Letter of Paul to the Philippians
• Letter of Paul to the Colossians
• Letters of Paul to the Thessalonians
  • I Thessalonians
  • II Thessalonians
• Letters of Paul to Timothy
  • I Timothy
  • II Timothy
• Letter of Paul to Titus
• Letter of Paul to Philemon
• Letter to the Hebrews
• Letter of James
• Letters of Peter
  • I Peter
  • II Peter
• Letters of John
  • I John
  • II John
  • III John
• Letter of Jude
• Revelation to John

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You crack me up brakelite.

The men of The Church (the Church Fathers) thru the guidance of the Holy Spirit decided what the NT would be. And your church fathers, the men who started your denomination in the 1800's, agree with the Church Fathers. If they didn't agree with the Church Fathers, you would have a completely different NT. You do understand that....Right?

Behold said:

As for me, im Anti-Catholic Doctrine.... when it opposes Paul's Doctrine.

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When it opposes Paul's Doctrine according to YOUR interpretation of Paul's Doctrine? Or according to what other men have taught you?

Behold said:

GOD makes... CHRISTians.


MAN makes : Denominations

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God makes Christians??????? Lol.....Tell that to all the Muslims and atheists.

A person decides to believe or not believe in Christ. God does not make us believe in Him. God does not make Christians. So, once again, you are wrong.

Yes, men make denominations. One of the very first denominations was started by Marcion in the early 2nd century. He was an evangelist and Marcionite churches spread throughout the Roman world. Marcionite churches held strong until the beginning of the fourth century. Marcion was one of the first to break away from the teachings of The Church and start his own denomination. A vast increase of denominations happened during the Protestant Revolution when those men rejected The Church. And then your men rejected those revolutionaries in the 1800's and started their own denomination.

Marymog said:

That means that YOU have decided what the truth is.

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The scriptures decide what is truth. Not your men. Or my men. Or any man.
KJV John 17:17
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

RedFan said:

No. I think Paul's gospel is largely (not entirely) consistent with that of the original apostles

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It MUST be exactly the same as the other apostles friend,
Ephesians 4:5,
- one Lord, ONE FAITH(GOSPEL), One baptism

Since there is one gospel it cannot be different from one apostle to another.

RedFan said:

although he did not learn at their feet. But even if the two "traditions" largely coalesce,

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What two traditions? Paul was given the same gospel in the exact same way the apostles previously did,

RedFan said:

, it does not follow that the "tradition" referenced in Second Thessalonians is the "apostolic" one.

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Its all the same gospel therefore the same tradition regardless of who preached it. All, of the apostles were given the revelation through the same agency, they all received it the same way just different time periods.

Acts 2:1-4,
- and they(apostles) were ALL filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in tongues....

On pentecost Jesus baptized the apostles with the Holy Spirit for the purpose of teaching the gospel to all nations.

Mark 1:8,
- I baptize you(soon to be apostles) with water but Jesus will baptize you with the Holy Spirit

Paul received the exact same baptism for the exact same purpose, only later.
The difference was the time it occurred.

Acts 9:17,
- so Ananias went to the house and when he arrived he placed his hands on Paul(Saul) and said brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here, has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit

All the apostles were not taught by men but by Jesus during His earthly ministry and given miraculous knowledge directly through Holy Spirit baptism.

Their knowledge was given directly by God not men. This is consistent with all of them,

Galatians 1:11
- but I make known to you brethren that the gospel which was preached(not what was taught to him)

by me(Paul) is not according to man for I neither received it from man nor was I taught it(his ministry), but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ

Now its important to understand in Galatians 1:11 Paul is not saying no man taught him the gospel of salvation.
Because Ananias came and taught him in Acts 9.

What Paul is saying is his MINISTRY his PREACHING was not taught to him from men but was a direct revelation from God. The agent was the personal indwelling of the Holy Spirit guiding Paul.

So tradition of the apostles is what the Holy Spirit revealed to all of them.
This removes other men out of the equation.

All tradition must be apostolic. Otherwise we have apostles teaching more than one gospel.
Acts 2:42 applies to Paul's teaching also,

- and they(christians) continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine...

RedFan said:

does not follow that the "tradition" referenced in Second Thessalonians is the "apostolic" one. That the Thessalonians heard only from Paul/Timothy/Silas seems overwhelmingly probable to me

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Its irrelevant if they only heard Paul's gospel.
Paul's gospel is the exact COPY of Peter and the rest of the apostles.

All guided by the same Holy Spirit.
All given miraculous knowledge directly from the Holy Spirit.
None of the apostles were following mens traditions because their ministry came directly from God.

Notice Paul includes the other apostles in his gospel,

Galatians 1:7-8,
- which is not another but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ
But even if  we or an angel from heaven preach another gospel to you than what  we have preached to you let him be accursed

Paul includes others in the gospel that he preaches!!!!

Notice the gospel Paul preaches is the exact copy of what Peter preaches.

How so?
Paul says it right out of his own mouth!!!!

Remember before Paul was appointed an apostle he tried to destroy the gospel that was being preached by Peter in Acts 2.

Guess which gospel Paul NOW PREACHES TO THE GALATIANS?

Galatians 1:21-22,
- afterward I went into the regions of Syria and Cilica and I was unknown by face to the churches of Judea which were in Christ

-but they(christians) were hearing only, He(Paul) who formerly persecuted us NOW PREACHES THE FAITH(GOSPEL) WHICH HE ONCE TRIED TO DESTROY

This proves Paul is now preaching the gospel he tried to destroy, proving all the apostles taught the same ONE gospel, therefore they all had the same tradition.

Jude Thaddeus said:

"Mary worship", and so, that is related to "Catholic Doctrine" is wrong. Catholic doctrine forbids Mary worship.

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Mary worship is forbidden?

Then you need to tell this person...
-

"""Pope adds new Mary memorial to calendar""​

-

Jude Thaddeus said:

The word “worship” has undergone a change in meaning in English.

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You seem to be smart enough to realize that I know what this word "worship" means, and certainly do tho other members of this forum.

Here is the reality.

Final answer.
-

Augustin56 said:

Absolutely nothing in Catholic doctrine contradicts anything Paul taught.

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Paul does not teach "baptismal regeneration". PAUL teaches "justification by faith" without works or water or commandment keeping.

The "Cult of the Virgin" absolutely teaches '"Baptismal Regeneration"... as its only found in a Douay Rheims (Catholic) Bible.

Behold said:

Paul does not teach "baptismal regeneration". PAUL teaches "justification by faith" without works or water or commandment keeping.

The "Cult of the Virgin" absolutely teaches '"Baptismal Regeneration"... as its only found in a Douay Rheims (Catholic) Bible.

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The gospel of Jesus Christ,
- he who believes and is baptized will be saved he that believeth not will be condemned

Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins.
But Catholics do not teach Biblical baptism.
They teach HOLY WATER WASHES AWAY SIN.
That is more heresy.

Titus said:

The gospel of Jesus Christ,
- he who believes and is baptized will be saved he that believeth not will be condemned

Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins.
But Catholics do not teach Biblical baptism.
They teach HOLY WATER WASHES AWAY SIN.
That is more heresy.

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There are at least 7 types of Baptisms, in the Bible.

The one that is related to Salvation as our Eternal Redemption, is this one.

"There is ONE Lord, One Faith, and ONE Baptism"..


This ONE Baptism, is spiritual regeneration, its to be immersed into the Spirit of God by the Spirit of God.

Salvation is God's Holy Spirit = birthing the spirit in a BELIEVER, .....into " God is A Spirit"... = "One with God"... "In Christ".

Now....BEFORE, God can do that, He has to make us righteous, and to do that Jesus has to die for all our Sin, so that the sin that was separating us from God, is eternally Resolved.

A.) "JESUS is the ONE TIME.... ETERNAL Sacrifice for Sin".., and that happens before we are born again,.. It happens when we give God our FAITH in Christ.....and our "faith is counted by God as (Christ's) Righteousness"

ALL our sin has to be resolved, so that we are thereby "made righteous", and now being made Righteous... = HOLY GOD can join Himself to us, which is when we are born again, as a "new Creation, In Christ".

Behold said:

Paul does not teach "baptismal regeneration". PAUL teaches "justification by faith" without works or water or commandment keeping.

The "Cult of the Virgin" absolutely teaches '"Baptismal Regeneration"... as its only found in a Douay Rheims (Catholic) Bible.

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Again, you can't get out from under your personal, and erroneous, interpretation of Scripture. Show me by what authority you interpret Scripture.

Augustin56 said:

Again, you can't get out from under your personal, and erroneous, interpretation of Scripture. Show me by what authority you interpret Scripture.

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"He that is Spiritual discerneth all things".

"The Born again are "One with God, In Christ" "Born again Spiritually".

"He that hath not the Spirit of God, is none of God's".

= Im Born again... so, that means that "Christ in you, the hope of Glory".. = Im a "Temple of The Holy Spirit".

So, all that means, = is that im SPIRITUAL... = "He that is Spiritual discerneth all things".

And the Spiritual can do this....>"The word of God(BIBLE) is Spiritually discerned"..

No, as you have no use for "protestants", then if i tell you that im "called of God", you will not believe it.

If i tell you that my Local Assembly is "Messianic" and i dont subscribe to "denominationalism"... at all.

Listen, , there is noone else on any forum Protestant or Catholic or otherwise... on the INternet who can can answer your question, as i have done.

I didnt "cut and paste" any of that oh ye "cult of the Virgin" owned., and i wrote a condensed version for you....

So, for you to ask me a question, while knowing that you will not accept my answer, is really a false game that you should not play with people.

Sprinkling a handful of Scripture quotes in your post, without giving your logic associated with the point you're trying to make, is like trying to wave a magic wand to make your point.

Many claim to be "called by God," like Jim Jones, et al. And many in our society claim to be something their not. Some men claim to be women and some women claim to be men. It doesn't make it so, does it?

The word "denomination" comes from the Latin and basically means "from the name of." Webster's dictionary says "denomination" means a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices. So, are you a one-off, by yourself? Or do you belong to a religious group who share the same beliefs? If so, then you belong to a denomination.

The bottom line is, you just belong to another man-made denomination, repleat with errors wherever you stray from the original teachings of Christ, held by Christ's Church, the Catholic Church. Historically, you cannot trace your group's origins back to Christ without going through the Catholic Church.

Augustin56 said:

Sprinkling a handful of Scripture quotes in your post,

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What i did was answer your question. = .......You asked me where i get my Authority..

And i connected verses for you that show you where it SPIRITUALLY comes from.

See, the Cult of the Virgin.. .is a man made hierarchy, whereby everyone wants to get more "leveled up".

All the leadership in your denomination are clawing out each others eyes to "get that better position". "that new TITLE"

Even your POPE is VOTED IN by MEN with "TITLES">. who all want to be the next Pope.

its a religious rat race.

= Im not interested.

Whereas in the Body of Christ, its the Holy Spirit who HIMSELF "calls" and "Anoints for service".

The "Church" didnt call Paul into the Ministry.

Jesus did.