A manuscript issue with the ending of the book of Mark

[TonyChanYT]

NIV note in Mark 16:

The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20.

On the other hand, Wiki:

Irenaeus (c. 184), in Against Heresies 3:10.6, explicitly cited Mark 16:19, stating that he was quoting from near the end of Mark's account. This patristic evidence is over a century older than the earliest manuscript of Mark 16.

The earliest manuscripts we have today do not contain the extended ending with Mark 16:19. In the 2nd century AD, Irenaeus quoted Mark 16:19 in his writing. Apparently, he read a manuscript that contained it. His quotation was older than those earliest manuscripts.

 

[gordon7]

Well man we do not receive faith from anyone, we have it from God.

All dispute does is let you answer it, by you faith, which if they had faith, they would not create doubt.


Look at the words brought up up every day for dispute on forums. ( CAN ANYONE SHOW HONOUR TO HAVE A LOOK AT WHAT THEY EVEN DISPUTE)

Anyway I will do the job, and the commandment is to go into all the world and preach the gospel to e very creature.

That they who believe will be saved, and they who do not believe will be damned.

These signs follow those who believe.

They obeyed, went forth every where, the Lord working wit them, CONFOIRMING THE WORD WITH SIGNS FOLLOWING. ( amen.)


Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

 

[RedFan]

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Have you personally done any of these things? Do you know any of "them that believe" who have? If not, what does that suggest about the spuriousness of this Marcan ending?

 

[gordon7]

Now of course I have to make sure it is noticed, that the word written above is self confirming, it is even precisely written that way, that these will be confirmed, so to even chat about it is rather empty.

Especially, as all the signs are ACTUALLY CONFIRMED IN THE SCRIPTURES ALSO...


1. Cast out devils: Acts 19:11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

2. They shall speak with new tongues: 1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

3. They shall take up serpents: Acts 28:3 And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
4 And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
5 And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.

4. Drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them. 1 Corinthians 8:10 For IF ANY MAN SEE THEEE WHICH HAS KNOWLEDGE sit at meat IN THE IDOLS TEMPLE, shall not THE CONSCIENCE OF HIM WHICH IS WEAK BE EMBOLDENED TO EAT THOSE THINGS which are OFFERED TO IDOLS;
11 And THROUGH THY KNOWLEDGE SHALL THE WEAK BROTHER PERISH, for whom Christ died?
12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
13 Wherefore, IF MEAT MAKE MY BROTHER TO OFFEND, I WILL EAT NO FLESH while the world standeth, LEST I MAKE MY BROTHER TO OFFEND. 1 Corinthians 10:27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
28 But IF ANY MAN SAY UNTO YOU, THIS IS OFFEFRED IN SACRIFICE UNTO IDOLS, EAT NOT FOR HIS SAKE THAT SHEWED IT, and FOR CONSCIENCE SAKE for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:
29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?
30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
31 WHEHER THEREFORE YE EAT, OR DRINK, or whatsoever ye do, DO ALL TO THE GLORY OF GOD.

5. Lay their hands on the sick and they shall recover. Acts 28:8 And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him.
9 So when this was done, others also, which had diseases in the island, came, and were healed:

 

[gordon7]

Have you personally done any of these things? Do you know any of "them that believe" who have? If not, what does that suggest about the spuriousness of this Marcan ending?

James 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:

 

[gordon7]

Paul confirmed tall of the signs for Mark 16, , is it not well known by everyone on the Christian forum.

 

[RedFan]

Now of course I have to make sure it is noticed, that the word written above is self confirming, it is even precisely written that way, that these will be confirmed, so to even chat about it is rather empty.

Especially, as all the signs are ACTUALLY CONFIRMED IN THE SCRIPTURES ALSO...


1. Cast out devils: Acts 19:11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

2. They shall speak with new tongues: 1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

3. They shall take up serpents: Acts 28:3 And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
4 And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
5 And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.

4. Drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them. 1 Corinthians 8:10 For IF ANY MAN SEE THEEE WHICH HAS KNOWLEDGE sit at meat IN THE IDOLS TEMPLE, shall not THE CONSCIENCE OF HIM WHICH IS WEAK BE EMBOLDENED TO EAT THOSE THINGS which are OFFERED TO IDOLS;
11 And THROUGH THY KNOWLEDGE SHALL THE WEAK BROTHER PERISH, for whom Christ died?
12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
13 Wherefore, IF MEAT MAKE MY BROTHER TO OFFEND, I WILL EAT NO FLESH while the world standeth, LEST I MAKE MY BROTHER TO OFFEND. 1 Corinthians 10:27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
28 But IF ANY MAN SAY UNTO YOU, THIS IS OFFEFRED IN SACRIFICE UNTO IDOLS, EAT NOT FOR HIS SAKE THAT SHEWED IT, and FOR CONSCIENCE SAKE for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:
29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?
30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
31 WHEHER THEREFORE YE EAT, OR DRINK, or whatsoever ye do, DO ALL TO THE GLORY OF GOD.

5. Lay their hands on the sick and they shall recover. Acts 28:8 And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him.
9 So when this was done, others also, which had diseases in the island, came, and were healed:

Let's keep our focus. The issue is whether the longer ending of Mark's gospel was in the original manuscript, or was added later by someone else who put these words into the Lord's mouth - including the suggestion that all true believers will accomplish these signs. Isn't it apparent that all do not? Whether the NT states elsewhere that some did is off point. The Marcan text under consideration suggests that all will do so.

 

[gordon7]

The world has the gospel preached, there is no issue, but this...


1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

 

[JBO]

NIV note in Mark 16:


On the other hand, Wiki:


The earliest manuscripts we have today do not contain the extended ending with Mark 16:19. In the 2nd century AD, Irenaeus quoted Mark 16:19 in his writing. Apparently, he read a manuscript that contained it. His quotation was older than those earliest manuscripts.

The earliest manuscripts are not always the most accurate or the most trustworthy. Being the earliest is not a stand-alone measure of accuracy or trustworthiness.

 

[gordon7]

The earliest manuscripts are not always the most accurate or the most trustworthy. Being the earliest is not a stand-alone measure of accuracy or trustworthiness.

Before the foundation of the world is earth, the apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ who first trusted in Him, to His praise and glory.

Trusting in His promises, in whom after we also trusted, after we heard the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation. believed to be sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise...


Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

[gordon7]

The earliest is the most accurate, and the most trustworthy, God is first, man questions afterwards along with the devil. ( his father)

 

[JBO]

Before the foundation of the world is earth, the apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ who first trusted in Him, to His praise and glory.

Trusting in His promises, in whom after we also trusted, after we heard the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation. believed to be sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise...


Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

What has that to do with what I posted?

 

[gordon7]

What has that to do with what I posted?

This:


1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

 

[gordon7]

Do you guys think you have faith to question the words and not see the outcome of the SIGNS FULFILLED ?


Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

 

[gordon7]

If this forum really is Christian, try to follow faith, not what was testified to NOT BE FAITH. ( questions of words)

 

[gordon7]

I posted all the signs fulfilled and you guys continue instead to question words, is there hope for such places. ( I think not)

 

[JBO]

This:


1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

That has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the ending of the Gospel of Mark. It seems pretty clear that you no knowledge of the Canon of the Bible, what it is or where it comes from.

 

[TonyChanYT]

The earliest manuscripts are not always the most accurate or the most trustworthy.

Did I assert that they are?

 

[RedFan]

Did I assert that they are?

You did not. Nor were you accused of doing so.

 

[JohnDB]

The Early church was a rag tag bunch of misfits in life. They weren't disciplined or took a position in the Church very seriously. They also were hunted and persecuted. The lifespan of early Christians were extremely shortened moreso than the short lifespans of your average individual.

The Jews....highly ordered and structured society. (Caste based society)
The Romans...another highly ordered caste based society but with much looser restrictions.

(Getting to the point where this matters)

In Jewish and Roman society the position of "grammiton" or scribe/lawyer was very prestigious. No...it wasn't a priest or a Rabbi....but it was important enough that you were going to have a full time occupation so long as you took your work serious enough. So accuracy and attention to detail was the stuff your reputation and livelihood was built upon. (Paper and ink were very expensive materials...wasting them was very bad)

So....when we get to the New Testament....there were no scribes or even Masoretes to hand transcribe the Letters or Gospels....and the few copies were often personal copies....not copies for the entire community you belonged to. (Very little infrastructure in the Early Church)

So....Irenius also lamented that there were differences between manuscripts. Not that these differences contained any doctrinal differences but that the various copies were not as precision copied as the Old Testament was.

The Gospel of Mark is of course the collection of stories Peter told on a regular basis. (With his own thoughts added). Kinda amazing that they had the money for the paper and ink. (The early church was extremely poor)
Peter's gospel was added to the others along with some of Paul's letters and bound together by 90 AD. (Not all of Paul's letters made it)

Then the whole thing transcribed again and again by various individuals....again...no professional scribes utilized.

Where there was only one Old Testament and no variations....there were often many variations in the New Testament. (Again, minor variations with NO DOCTRINAL DIFFERENCES).

However, the biggest copyist error to date is found in John 8. Much of the Chapter belongs in Mark. (I'll let you decide where)

I'm not saying that John 8 isn't scripture....just that it belongs in Mark instead of John. But since so many of the manuscripts have this error....it's impossible to get it out without causing an uproar in the Christian community. (Peace is preferable to division).

And the end of Mark? It fits....it isn't out of being in accord or out of writing style of the period. Just dropped in some manuscripts in a hurry to begin Luke's gospel or running out of paper or ink and left it off as "unimportant fluff".