Runningman
Active Member
He didn't say "you" are God. The Greek basically means "the God of me" which according to John 20:17 would be the Father.
A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Huh?
I was addressing the masses, just an exclamation, like "duck!" When I say, "duck" I don't literally mean the person I am talking to is an aquatic bird.
Learn English.
Hebrews 1:8-10
8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."10 And: "You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Yes. O' is an abbreviation for OF. No one is denying Jesus is OF God - servant, apostle, priest, word, lamb, Anointed, etc. If you check grammar, you'll discover that OF does not mean a kind of is.
Joe Biden OF Maryland
not to be taken to mean
Joe Biden is Maryland.
My Lord and my God, he said to Jesus, addressing Him directly. Are you saying his words were purely gratuitous? I wouldn't think so!
Do you mind if I ask, what is your background concerning Koine Greek?
Much love!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
His words were purely exclamatory. When I drop my toast butter side down, I am not literally stating it is feces.
You don't need expertise in ancient foreign languages to know an exclamatory statement when you see one.
Also, it is not a narrative declaration. Saying someone is their God does not mean he is your God.
That's what I'm saying, you talk that way, and you ascribe that same kind of speech to Thomas. But again I'll say, "OMG" is a modern thing, not how an ancient Jew spoke of his God.
You claim he spoke vanities, "my Lord", not! "My God", not! I'm saying he addressed his Lord and God with a meaningful acknowledgment.
You would drain his words of meaning, renderering them agreeable to your view.
Much love!
Back to that pesky Koine Greek.
"O God" is not abreviating "of God", it's an address. "towards the Son, the throne of you the God into the age of the age . . ."
I'm curious for you to show me where in this passage this is saying Jesus is "of God". Can you? Or no?
Much love!
Runningman
Active Member
It's quoted from Psalm 45:6 where in the chapter it's referring to a human king with a queen. God doesn't have a queen and neither does Jesus.
In Psalm 45:6, when the author referred to the human king he isn't referring to him as Lord God Almighty. When the author of Hebrews 1 applied this verse to the Son, it doesn't transfer that Jesus is being called God Almighty.
This is apparent from your quoting of Hebrews 1:9 which soundly disproves your premise - for the God who anointed the Son is Lord God Almighty, YHWH, as proven in Hebrews 1:10.
Thank you for proving Jesus isn't God by your quoting of scripture.
What's next?
Runningman
Active Member
In John 20:17 Jesus defined who his and his brothers' God is by saying He's the Father. That means when Thomas said "my God" in John 20:28 that he's referring to the Father.
No, actually, he was addressing Jesus, "my Lord, and my God". Context is king, as they say. The Lord of me, and the God of me.
There is no conflict with other passages, as Jesus joined with humanity being born a man. It doesn't mean that Thomas didn't mean what he said, or said it in the same way that Wrangler curses when he drops his toast.
Taking your understanding from one passage and using it as a basis to negate the meaning of another passage does not seem to me to be a valid hermeneutic.
The only way to deny Thomas' meaning is to claim he spoke in the same sloppy and irreverant way people speak today. And I don't see that, myself.
Much love!
Actually God is calling His Son God! Learn to read!
Heb 1 God said "Let all God's angels WORSHIP Jesus!
Michael WORSHIPS Jesus!
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Runningman
Active Member
What you are using is called an argument from silence, i,e, "The Bible doesn't say Jesus isn't Thomas God therefore it's true." However, with something as important as who God and Jesus are, we should not be be basing our beliefs off of something the Bible doesn't plainly say in favor of something explicitly stated.
With John 20:17 saying the God of Jesus and his brothers is the Father, then it follows logically that when there is a mention of God either by Jesus or the disciples that they are referring to the Father.
This is actually why the Father is referred to as the only true God throughout the Bible.
As Jesus said in John 17:1-3, the Father is the only true God. The word only means there are no exceptions to this.
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Runningman
Active Member
When angels bowed to Jesus he didn't get any glory according to Scripture.
Philippians 2
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
And in the Bible bowing down to someone in not equal to being God. See 1 Kings 1:23 and Genesis 18:2
You're speaking JW. 'The Bible doesn't mean what it says'!
No, I am not using an argument from silence.
Thomas addressed Jesus as "My Lord and my God", and I accept the truth of that.
It's just no good to think you have a handle on some of these passages but only by negating others.
Much love!
Runningman
Active Member
But Thomas wasn't praised for his attitude of being a doubter. Thomas required visual evidence of Jesus' resurrection to believe it was true. Jesus responded with “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” Which means Thomas wasn't blessed for believing based of what he could see.
Compare this to Jesus' response when Peter said to Jesus in Matthew 16:16 “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Peter directly said to Jesus "you" meaning he was talking about Jesus. Jesus responded with praise, confirming that Peter's answer is the one revealed by their God in heaven, the Father. If Thomas was talking about Jesus, which he wasn't, then his answer doesn't match what the answer revealed from heaven is. Peter was blessed, Thomas was not.
Matthew 16
16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven.
Remember, Jeremiah refered to God as "the God of all flesh", and when Jesus took on flesh, He took on that.
But you still have to deal with the various places such as "before Abraham was, I am", that is, before Abraham did exist in the past, I do exist in the present. That's the wording and grammar of the passage. A real mind-bender, huh! He's claiming a present existence before Abraham's historical existence. Something only someone who is not bound to this space-time continuum can say. Something only an eternal being can say. Jesus said it, and He spoke truth, as always.
Philippians 2:5-8 KJV
5) Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
He humbled Himself . . . from what? Was He proud? Or was He transcendant?
He became obedient . . . from what? Was He disobedient? Or Sovereign?
He was in the form of God . . . transcendant . . . sovereign . . . YHWH.
Philippians 2:10-11 KJV
10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Do you seriously think that Paul would appropriate Isaiah's words applied to YHWH and apply them to Jesus, if they are not the same One? I don't, myself.
Much love!
Runningman
Active Member
Being the "God of all flesh" and a"God of flesh" aren't the same things. The Old Testament also says that God isn't a man or a son of man. That means God isn't human, i.e., He isn't flesh.
Numbers 23
19God is not a man, that He should lie,
or a son of man, that He should change His mind.
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