Before the flood is actually "after"

[rebuilder 454]

Lot walked away from Sodom and Gomorrah... and didn't look back (unlike Lot's wife):

"...one said, 'Escape for your life. Do not look back or stop anywhere in the valley. Escape to the hills, lest you be swept away.' And Lot said to them, 'Oh, no, my lords. Behold, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have shown me great kindness in saving my life. But I cannot escape to the hills, lest the disaster overtake me and I die. Behold, this city is near enough to flee to, and it is a little one. Let me escape there ~ is it not a little one? ~ and my life will be saved!' He said to him, 'Behold, I grant you this favor also, that I will not overthrow the city of which you have spoken. Escape there quickly, for I can do nothing till you arrive there.' Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar" (Genesis 19:17-22).​

Lot did as he was told ~ because he feared the Lord, of course ~ and "removed" himself ~ escaped to Zoar. Likewise, Noah before him, who, having heeded God's warning... and in obedience to Him, of course, built a big boat (the ark, of course) that, after presumably walking into the... big boat... was kept safe by said big boat through the flood. Neither Noah nor Lot was "removed" from creation.

This whole thing about any kind of "removal" of those in the Lord is silly. The "removal" will be of those who do not find favor with the Lord, who are not recipients of God's mercy, who, in God's coming final Judgment, will be suddenly "swept away" as the victims of the flood were, "destroyed," as were the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah. And up until this time, they will continue eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building ~ carefree and unaware, just as those in the days of Noah and Lot.

Grace and peace to all.

"""This whole thing about any kind of "removal" of those in the Lord is silly. The "removal" will be of those who do not find favor with the Lord, who are not recipients of God's mercy, who, in God's coming final Judgment, will be suddenly "swept away" as the victims of the...."""
Lol...too funny
Gen19

16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the Lord being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.
17 And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.

Lot vividly REMOVED pre judgement.

You should read the bible before making stuff up about it.
My job is to report facts from the bible, and make challengers go against the bible as you demonstrate over and over.
But don't stop there and call Gods word silly.
I got a good chuckle out of that one.
Your narratives and commentary are quite entertaining.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Can someone explain pre-tb with 2Thess 2:1-4 ?
Or can you explain it with Job 14:12 ?
Or 2 Timothy 4:1 ?
Or Isaiah 25:6-10 ?
Or Acts 3:21 ?
Or can you show me the last trump pre Ch 4? And how there exists 7 more beyond the last?

Or can you explain to me the meaning of protos and how the first resurrection is really a second one in your mind with protos?

As a pretribber, I am not forbidden from any part of the bible.
What I am demonstrating quite successfully is there is a doctrine "postrib rapture, that not only omits the pretrib rapture verses, but strangely changes them unto bizarre narratives.
So we are not forbidden from your verses thankfully.
It also kind of boils down to the fact that a post-tribber adherent must prove that there is only one coming. They cannot have versus like Matthew 24:38 and Revelation 14 14 in the mix. Those verses completely destroy any hope of a post tribulation rapture.
That is the debate killer, the fact that Jesus vividly declared more than one coming and gathering.
I understand all postrib adherents frustration.
I am joyful I never fell for that doctrine of omission.

 

[Zao is life]

I am saying Jesus used Lot alongside Noah as pre judgement examples of the rapture.
The gathering of the bride in a setting of commerce, peacetime, normal life, and buying and selling.
Only fits a pretrib rapture, while proving a postrib rapture impossible

Your confusion and faulty interpretation of the scriptures stems from the fact that what you falsely call pre-TRIB the scripture calls pre-WRATH.

What the Bible repeatedly and without exception calls the tribulation, persecution and affliction of the saints, and describes in three places as GREAT tribulation, you refer to as God's wrath coming upon unbelievers.

Of course there will be a rapture before the final bowl of the wrath of God is poured out upon unbelievers. The Bible calls this rapture the resurrection and being "caught up". It happens immediately before the wrath of God is poured out, just as at the time of Lot's deliverance, and Noah's:

13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah’s wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
-- Genesis 7

4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.*n4
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah’s wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

GREAT TRIBULATION mentioned IN THE BIBLE
[Greek: mégas thlîpsis]​

Mentioned only three times in the New Testament:-

First mention: The Olivet Discourse: Matthew 24:21-22 (Parallel: Mark 13:19-20) *

"for then shall be mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be.
And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened." (Also see Matthew 24:9).

The elect are around to experience it.

"And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31).

Third mention: Revelation 7:13-14:

Revelation 7:9-10, 13-15
After these things I looked, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palms in their hands.
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb.
And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come?

And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation [mégas thlîpsis] and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

Second mention: Revelation 2:21: "Behold, I will cast her (Jezebel) into a bed, and them (those Christians) that commit adultery with her into mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), except they repent of their deeds."

PERSECUTION and TRIBULATION IN THE BIBLE​

Persecution of Jesus: John 5:16

Persecution of Christians: Matthew 5:10-12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1:13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11

Persecution of "the woman" who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13

TRIBULATION OF APOSTLES OR CHRISTIANS:-

Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14.

TRIBULATION OF NON-CHRISTIANS

There are only two verses in the New Testament referring to tribulation experienced by non-Christians:-

1. Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9.
2. Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6.

Only once you stop falsely reading "God's wrath" when you see the word "tribulation" in the Bible will your eyes be opened to the blindness of your false pre-trib rapture doctrine.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Jesus declares Himself to be coming as a thief for the battle of Armageddon in His interjection of John's description of the visions regarding the 6th bowl of wrath, and it's for a very good reason that He adds,

"Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

He is not talking to those about to be judged.

Leading up to the return of Christ in judgment Jesus likened the oblivious condition of those who are to be judged as to what is about to come upon them when He comes as a thief, with the oblivious condition of those who were about to be judged in the flood:

The saints are seeing following Him on white horses when He judges the beast, and are also mentioned as being with Him when He comes in Zechariah 14, but the resurrection of the saints does not occur before the return of Christ.

29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered into the ark.
39 And they did not know until the flood came and took them all away. So also will be the coming of the Son of man. (Mat.24)

15 Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. (Rev.16)

"They" did not know until the flood came in Mat.24:39 is referring to those who are to be judged at the time of His return.

These facts are repeated over and over in the New Testament, scattered in different books and chapters and verses.

And besides all this, in the New Testament the words "The Tribulation" and "Affliction" are not even used in reference to the world that is to be judged. They are always used in reference to the saints at the hand of those who persecute them - and this includes the only three references to GREAT tribulation in the New Testament.

If you are a postrib rapture adherent, then Jesus was mistaken when He's placed Noah and Lot as PREJUDGEMENT examples of his coming.

We have Noah RETURNING post flood.
We have Lot LEAVING Pre judgement.
NEITHER of them are postjudgement departures.
You have a real problem there
You allowed yourself to be painted into a corner.

 

[Zao is life]

If you are a postrib rapture adherent, then Jesus was mistaken when He's placed Noah and Lot as PREJUDGEMENT examples of his coming.

We have Noah RETURNING post flood.
We have Lot LEAVING Pre judgement.
NEITHER of them are postjudgement departures.
You have a real problem there
You allowed yourself to be painted into a corner.

You never even read what I wrote and in the process have painted yourself into a corner.

There is a pre-JUDGMENT departure, not a pre-TRIB departure. The judgment (a.k.a wrath of God) is not called tribulation or "the tribulation" or "the great tribulation" in THE BIBLE.

There is a POST trib rapture precisely because IN THE BIBLE the tribulation refers to what the saints go through at the hands of unbelievers and are to go through at the hand of of beast and its armies.

You may as well call the USA the United States of Huwaii when you call the judgment/wrath of God "the tribulation" because you are using false and unbiblical terminology.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Your confusion and faulty interpretation of the scriptures stems from the fact that what you falsely call pre-TRIB the scripture calls pre-WRATH.

What the Bible repeatedly and without exception calls the tribulation, persecution and affliction of the saints, and describes in three places as GREAT tribulation, you refer to as God's wrath coming upon unbelievers.

Of course there will be a rapture before the final bowl of the wrath of God is poured out upon unbelievers. The Bible calls this rapture the resurrection and being "caught up". It happens immediately before the wrath of God is poured out, just as at the time of Lot's deliverance, and Noah's:

13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah’s wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
-- Genesis 7

4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.*n4
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah’s wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

GREAT TRIBULATION mentioned IN THE BIBLE
[Greek: mégas thlîpsis]​

Mentioned only three times in the New Testament:-

First mention: The Olivet Discourse: Matthew 24:21-22 (Parallel: Mark 13:19-20) *

"for then shall be mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be.
And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened." (Also see Matthew 24:9).

The elect are around to experience it.

"And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31).

Third mention: Revelation 7:13-14:

Revelation 7:9-10, 13-15
After these things I looked, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palms in their hands.
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb.
And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come?

And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation [mégas thlîpsis] and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

Second mention: Revelation 2:21: "Behold, I will cast her (Jezebel) into a bed, and them (those Christians) that commit adultery with her into mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), except they repent of their deeds."

PERSECUTION and TRIBULATION IN THE BIBLE​

Persecution of Jesus: John 5:16

Persecution of Christians: Matthew 5:10-12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1:13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11

Persecution of "the woman" who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13

TRIBULATION OF APOSTLES OR CHRISTIANS:-

Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14.

TRIBULATION OF NON-CHRISTIANS

There are only two verses in the New Testament referring to tribulation experienced by non-Christians:-

1. Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9.
2. Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6.

Only once you stop falsely reading "God's wrath" when you see the word "tribulation" in the Bible will your eyes be opened to the blindness of your false pre-trib rapture doctrine.

...and once you see that the 4 horsemen kick off the great tribulation, your doctrine built on the definition of a word will be corrected., as you do not understand the purpose of the great tribulation
The 4 horsemen are judgement on the earth released BY HEAVEN.
All your trib verses are going on now and are applied now.
Nobody denies trib. It is a fact. But you have misplaced that dynamic.

ALL pretrib rapture verses are peacetime, commerce, buying and selling , marrying and giving in marriage...normal life.
The setting you need is no commerce, unless you have the mark, Christians being slaughtered by the AC, no peace for christians etc.
All pretrib rapture verses are opposite your model.
Rev 3
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Temptation in Greek is
G3986 πειρασμός - Strong's Greek Lexicon

(a) trial, probation, testing, being tried, (b) temptation, (c) calamity, affliction.

You have built your doctrine on a hope you have some superior definition of the word "tribulation" and that God never intervenes.

You left one out.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...8QFnoECC4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw1mrIT_-enGXqQF8jzU5kTU
hebrews 12:6-11 KJV
... For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, And scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with ..
You are trying to prove, through verses we all agree with , and know that ,we do indeed suffer through trials, but erroneously insist that God never averts or stops any of it.

Only the pretrib doctrine brings the bride/ groom dynamic to the table.
The greatest event about to happen is the Gathering of the Bride by the groom.
that is the heartbeat of Heaven, and I am amazed at those that try to understand eschatology and yet leave out the heartbeat of Heaven.
Once you get heavens perspective, your eyes will be opened.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You never even read what I wrote and in the process have painted yourself into a corner.

There is a pre-JUDGMENT departure, not a pre-TRIB departure. The judgment (a.k.a wrath of God) is not called tribulation or "the tribulation" or "the great tribulation" in THE BIBLE.

There is a POST trib rapture precisely because IN THE BIBLE the tribulation refers to what the saints go through at the hands of unbelievers and are to go through at the hand of of beast and its armies.

You may as well call the USA the United States of Huwaii when you call the judgment/wrath of God "the tribulation" because you are using false and unbiblical terminology.

We all know all about saints going through horrible tribulation and such, past and present.
No news there.
We all see the wrath at the last of the GT
You are not proving a thing.

 

[PinSeeker]

My job is to report facts from the bible...

Well I wouldn't call that your "job," but yes, if you're going to "report on the Bible," it's a good idea to report facts.

...and call Gods word silly.

Nah, just your take/thoughts about them. Many of them, anyway; others would probably warrant more... colorful... adjectives.

Your narratives and commentary are quite entertaining.

Thank you.

Oh, yeah, you don't like emoticons... Oh well. Truth be told, I don't really "like them," per se, either, but they are useful from time to time in conveying non-verbal language often lacking in these forums.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

As a pretribber, I am not forbidden from any part of the bible.

You are prohibited from reinterpreting any part of the Bible to fit a made-up narrative, though...

What I am demonstrating quite successfully is...

Everyone is successful in his own mind...

there is a doctrine "postrib rapture, that not only omits the pretrib rapture verses, but strangely changes them unto bizarre narratives.

Both do that to some extent, but the latter far more.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Cassandra]

Your narrative does not fit

1) you leave out that Lot is AlONGSIDE Noah when Jesus declared in both a PREJUGEMENT gathering.
2) in your model, you now have the one taken/left, as only half the wicked are judged.
(Remember it is you that says the wicked are all taken away as in the flood)
Keep in mind, in your model, you have not addressed the fact that they are taken away AT THE FIRST of the flood....judged at the first.
You have them judged AFTER the flood.
So you changed what the verses say.
3) I already pointed out that there is zero in the Noah analogy by Jesus of ANYTHING after the flood.
That is WHY Jesus used Noah and Lot side by side.
IOW Lot AUTHENTICATES The "Noah gathered into the ark" analogy as a PREJUGEMENT gathering

See this is my point.
Postribbers have a banner verse.
That verse contains the word "after"
It is their only verse.
"After"
They can coin that word perfectly and pull it like a sixgun.
It amazes me that they can not comprehend "before"
Something about that word that is remarkably elusive.

Judgement had already been decided. There were no more folks to come into the Ark after Noah and his family entered.
Likewise, the Lord had decided to destroy the inhabitants of the cities of the plain, before fire and brimstone came.

 

[PinSeeker]

Judgement had already been decided. There were no more folks to come into the Ark after Noah and his family entered.
Likewise, the Lord had decided to destroy the inhabitants of the cities of the plain, before fire and brimstone came.

Right, and in the execution of those judgments, those folks were swept away, destroyed ("removed," as it were). This is exactly what Jesus says in Luke 17, "Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all... on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all..." How anyone can get that backwards ~ create a backwards narrative out of that ~ is just astounding, but that's what "pretribbers" do there. So be it.

Grace and peace to you, Cassandra.

 

[Timtofly]

There is a POST trib rapture precisely because IN THE BIBLE the tribulation refers to what the saints go through at the hands of unbelievers and are to go through at the hand of of beast and its armies.

That is wrong as well. The tribulation that happens prior to the Second Coming, started days after the Cross, when Peter was put in prison, and Stephen and James were martyred. That tribulation has been ongoing for 1994 years.

 

[Keraz]

I am saying Jesus used Lot alongside Noah as pre judgement examples of the rapture.
The gathering of the bride in a setting of commerce, peacetime, normal life, and buying and selling.
Only fits a pretrib rapture, while proving a postrib rapture impossible

The scripture which says: when all is peaceful, all secure; 1 Thess 5:2-3, tells us that next to come is sudden destruction of the Lords enemies.
Then; 1 Thess 5:4-10, says: we Christians must keep awake and sober, trusting in the Lord for His protection.
There is no hint of us being taken to heaven. There or anywhere in the Bible.

We must encourage one another; to keep ourselves armed will our faith and our hope for Salvation, as we endure until the end.
You know it is our appointed lot to stand firm thru all the hardships to come. 1 Thess 3:3-4

 

[PinSeeker]

That is wrong as well. The tribulation that happens prior to the Second Coming, started days after the Cross, when Peter was put in prison, and Stephen and James were martyred. That tribulation has been ongoing for 1994 years.

Sure. Well, it really started with the coming of Jesus and then the Holy Spirit. So, precisely one thousand, nine hundred and ninety-four years ago? LOL... Well, thereabouts... Really, the most accurate thing we can say is, "when (as God said through the prophet Jeremiah) God began putting His law within His people, writing it on their hearts (Jeremiah 31:33)." Even shortly before His crucifixion, Jesus was clear in telling Nicodemus that "unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." So this was the case then, even before Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit came. The precise date or year is not necessary to know... only that it is, and why it is. As the writer of Hebrews says, "...on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God... This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant... He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance."

All that said, I do (generally speaking) agree with Timtofly that the time of tribulation has been occurring ever since those days... I would say actually since Jesus was born of Mary. As Gabriel told Mary (as documented by Luke in Luke 1), “The Holy Spirit (came) upon (her), and the power of the Most High (overshadowed her)..." and "the child... born (was, even then, at His birth) "...holy ~ the Son of God." So, I would "set the date" ~ ~ at about 2057 years ago... Jesus was about 33 when He was crucified, resurrected, and ascended and Pentecost occurred, and it has been about 2024 years since then, so... ergo... 2057. Or thereabouts.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The scripture which says: when all is peaceful, all secure; 1 Thess 5:2-3, tells us that next to come is sudden destruction of the Lords enemies.
Then; 1 Thess 5:4-10, says: we Christians must keep awake and sober, trusting in the Lord for His protection.
There is no hint of us being taken to heaven. There or anywhere in the Bible.

We must encourage one another; to keep ourselves armed will our faith and our hope for Salvation, as we endure until the end.
You know it is our appointed lot to stand firm thru all the hardships to come. 1 Thess 3:3-4

The great multitude before the throne are standing in heaven having come out if the great tribulation
.
The 144k are in heaven during the GT

The 2 witnesses are taken to heaven
Enoch and Elijah taken to heaven.
Jesus said in heaven are many mansions...for his people

 

[Zao is life]

That is wrong as well. The tribulation that happens prior to the Second Coming, started days after the Cross, when Peter was put in prison, and Stephen and James were martyred. That tribulation has been ongoing for 1994 years.

Which confirms my sentence before the words "..and are to go through .." So once again you make a point based on not having any point to make.

There is a POST trib rapture precisely because IN THE BIBLE the tribulation refers to what the saints go through at the hands of unbelievers

and are to go through at the hand of of beast and its armies.

 

[Zao is life]

...and once you see that the 4 horsemen kick off the great tribulation, your doctrine built on the definition of a word will be corrected., as you do not understand the purpose of the great tribulation
The 4 horsemen are judgement on the earth released BY HEAVEN.
All your trib verses are going on now and are applied now.
Nobody denies trib. It is a fact. But you have misplaced that dynamic.

ALL pretrib rapture verses are peacetime, commerce, buying and selling , marrying and giving in marriage...normal life.
The setting you need is no commerce, unless you have the mark, Christians being slaughtered by the AC, no peace for christians etc.
All pretrib rapture verses are opposite your model.
Rev 3
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Temptation in Greek is
G3986 πειρασμός - Strong's Greek Lexicon

(a) trial, probation, testing, being tried, (b) temptation, (c) calamity, affliction.

You have built your doctrine on a hope you have some superior definition of the word "tribulation" and that God never intervenes.

You left one out.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...8QFnoECC4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw1mrIT_-enGXqQF8jzU5kTU
hebrews 12:6-11 KJV
... For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, And scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with ..
You are trying to prove, through verses we all agree with , and know that ,we do indeed suffer through trials, but erroneously insist that God never averts or stops any of it.

Only the pretrib doctrine brings the bride/ groom dynamic to the table.
The greatest event about to happen is the Gathering of the Bride by the groom.
that is the heartbeat of Heaven, and I am amazed at those that try to understand eschatology and yet leave out the heartbeat of Heaven.
Once you get heavens perspective, your eyes will be opened.

The events that are to take place are written in the scroll, not in the seals that seal the scroll.

So because you have the scroll as the seals and the seals as the scroll, you have wound up with your own private interpretation of what is written about the four horsemen, so you cannot be helped with Revelation either.
​

Seven Priests. Seven Trumpets. Seven Times.

N obody ever sealed a blank scroll. After the decree of the King of the universe had been written into the scroll, the scroll was sea...

zaoislife.blogspot.com

Counting Crowns

The rider of the white horse in Revelation chapter 6 is given a stéphanos crown. There are two types of crown mentioned in the Revelati...

zaoislife.blogspot.com

Counting White Horses

Revelation 6:2 I f you live in a country or culture that historically has always been influenced by Christianity, then you've probably hear...

zaoislife.blogspot.com

Kept from falling during the hour of trial

J esus ensured that though His people will be in the world during the hour of trial that will come upon all the world, they will be kept dur...

zaoislife.blogspot.com

 

[Keraz]

The great multitude before the throne are standing in heaven having come out if the great tribulation
.
The 144k are in heaven during the GT

The 2 witnesses are taken to heaven
Enoch and Elijah taken to heaven.
Jesus said in heaven are many mansions...for his people

You are a seriously wrong adder to scripture. Bad you.
The vast multitude and the 144k are never said to be in heaven.

The two witnesses will be resurrected along with all the GT martyrs, when Jesus Returns, then they will be His priests and co-rulers on earth . Revelation 20:4-5 They never go to live in heaven.

Enoch and Elijah are never said to be living in heaven.

The ;mansions, refer to the new Jerusalem, Revelation 21:1-7 After the Millennium.

The idea of people being raptured to heaven, is a Satanic lie and those who choose to believe it have been deceived.

 

[Zao is life]

All your trib verses are going on now and are applied now.
Nobody denies trib. It is a fact. But you have misplaced that dynamic.

That's right. All the Bible's tribulation verses are referring to the tribulation of saints that is going on now, and has been going on since the death and resurrection of Christ, and will intensify when the beast makes war against the saints and overcomes them.

Glad you admit that.

Now either supply the tribulation verses that are referring to the wrath of God that is to come upon the unbelieving world at Armageddon, or stop using unbiblical terminology calling the wrath of God "the Tribulation".

Once you finally do that you will find that everyone will agree when you talk about a pre-wrath rapture.

 

[Zao is life]

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

John 17
6 "I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave to Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to Me, and they have kept [τηρησω tēréō: guarded from loss or injury by keeping their eye upon and preserving] Your word."

11-15: "And now I am in the world no longer, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father. Keep [tēréō] them in Your name, those whom You have given Me, so that they may be one as We are.
While I was with them in the world, I kept [tēréō] them in Your name. Those that You have given Me I have kept [tēréō], and none of them is lost, except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
And now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world that they might have My joy fulfilled in them.
I have given them Your Word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

I do not pray for You to take them out of the world, but for You to keep [tēréō] them from the evil."

Revelation 3:10: "Because you have kept [tēréō] the word of My patience, I also will keep [tēréō] you from the hour of temptation which will come upon all the world, to try those who dwell upon the earth."

During the hour of temptation that is going to come upon all the world to test them that dwell upon the earth (Revelation 3:7-13), the harlot, Babylon the Great will be destroyed in one hour (Revelation 18:10, 17, 19) by ten kings, who will be reigning for one hour with the beast (Revelation 17:12-13), who will be given authority to continue for 42 months (Revelation 13:5), and will make war against the saints and overcome them (Revelation 13:7).