God shall add unto him the plagues

[Timtofly]

Alright, I agree with you, once a person is dead they can’t experience literal plagues.

Why are there no records of anyone who has added to the book experiencing any of the plagues? Someone changed 666 to 616 as seen in some of the manuscripts, did they experience any of the bowls or trumpet plagues?

Why would an apostate church want to keep records of how they were wrong?

 

[grafted branch]

The point John was making was to prevent the book of Revelation to be altered and changed over the generations to come between when he wrote and that final judgment. Only God reserves the right to deal with individuals who try to change it throughout time. What God does or does not do, does not make John a false witness. John did exactly what God told him to do concerning this book, including the warning attached, regardless of textual criticism that may arrise.

So if someone adds to the book and doesn’t receive any plagues then can we apply that same principle to sin? Maybe the penalty for sin will somehow not happen, just like the penalty for adding to the book.

I don’t think so! God is just and His word is true.

 

[Timtofly]

Well I don’t want to get into a debate on free will vs election, but if the people on earth have the ability to resist the gathering to Armageddon then it’s not just a matter of a spirit tell someone to go to battle.

There are always people who will protest and resist just for the sake of doing it. Unless human nature changes or free will is no longer present, it will not be possible to gather the whole world to battle unless force is used.

The choice was already made at that point. Those who have the mark already made that choice permanent. No one on earth at that point was without the mark of the beast.

One could also say that one's spiritual condition was already sealed via the mark. They were already "in tune" with those spirits sent out.

I still think God moved people physically or with an angel, because all would appear at Armageddon. No one could hide from God for that judgment.

When you say the whole world, it would seem at that point, only thousands were still alive, not even millions.

 

[grafted branch]

Why would an apostate church want to keep records of how they were wrong?

It’s kind of hard to keep the plagues a secret, if the people who attended a certain church all of a sudden started getting noisome, grievous sores at the same time that would make the medical records.

 

[grafted branch]

The choice was already made at that point. Those who have the mark already made that choice permanent. No one on earth at that point was without the mark of the beast.

One could also say that one's spiritual condition was already sealed via the mark. They were already "in tune" with those spirits sent out.

I still think God moved people physically or with an angel, because all would appear at Armageddon. No one could hide from God for that judgment.

When you say the whole world, it would seem at that point, only thousands were still alive, not even millions.

So if someone gets the mark they no longer have free will? What makes you think that besides a literal interpretation of the plagues?

It seems you have to give up some foundational beliefs to support literal plagues.

 

[Timtofly]

So if someone adds to the book and doesn’t receive any plagues then can we apply that same principle to sin? Maybe the penalty for sin will somehow not happen, just like the penalty for adding to the book.

I don’t think so! God is just and His word is true.

How would we know, if it was never reported? Do you think there is supposed to be a human writing for trillions of human actions over 6,000 years?

People physically die. We know God is sure on that point.

 

[grafted branch]

How would we know, if it was never reported? Do you think there is supposed to be a human writing for trillions of human actions over 6,000 years?

People physically die. We know God is sure on that point.

Can you give me just one documented case where someone has received the plagues for adding to the book?

 

[Hobie]

Sure, so people have been worshipping on Sunday for well over a thousand years now, and millions have already died without being inflicted with the plagues. When will those dead Sunday worshippers experience the plagues?

The plaques are at the end, and probation closes as each case is decided as saints or sinners, and then the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[Timtofly]

It’s kind of hard to keep the plagues a secret, if the people who attended a certain church all of a sudden started getting noisome, grievous sores at the same time that would make the medical records.

It was not a group effort was it? It would be one teacher or theologian taking it upon themselves to correct the Word of God, as if it needed correction.

 

[grafted branch]

The plaques are at the end, and probation closes as each case is decided as saints or sinners, and then the Second Coming of Christ.

That means either dead people can experience the plagues or there is a resurrection of the dead in order for them to experience the plagues. Which is it?

 

[grafted branch]

It was not a group effort was it? It would be one teacher or theologian taking it upon themselves to correct the Word of God, as if it needed correction.

Yea, if it was just the one person that did it and no one else was involved.
Have you found any evidence of anyone ever receiving the plagues in the past?

Hint, the Preterist have the plagues literally occurring to those in Jerusalem in the first century.

 

[Timtofly]

So if someone gets the mark they no longer have free will? What makes you think that besides a literal interpretation of the plagues?

It seems you have to give up some foundational beliefs to support literal plagues.

If someone is offered a choice and they make that permanent, what does free will have to do with the point after a decision is made? Do people in the grave have free will to escape death?

What choice is offered to those already physically dead? Once a person is redeemed and in Paradise, do they have a choice to leave Paradise and enter sheol with the rest of the unredeemed?

Understanding the mark is the issue, not the physical administration of literal plagues.

Think about Pharaoh. He had 9 chances to let the people leave Egypt, yet he chose not to, and then God hardened Pharaoh's heart so he could never actually choose to let them go. At that point it was all God's will.

I don't see those with the mark ever having the ability to choose redemption after they receive the mark.

 

[Timtofly]

Can you give me just one documented case where someone has received the plagues for adding to the book?

I don't even know of a case where theology has changed Revelation other than your alleged 616, which we don't know was an accident or on purpose.

Can you prove that was a deliberate change and which is the original?

 

[Timtofly]

Yea, if it was just the one person that did it and no one else was involved.
Have you found any evidence of anyone ever receiving the plagues in the past?

Hint, the Preterist have the plagues literally occurring to those in Jerusalem in the first century.

There is a preterist Bible that has left the manuscripts?

What is the difference between just making up your own Bible or forcing people to longer have access to the Word of God as handed down from generation to generation?

 

[grafted branch]

I don't even know of a case where theology has changed Revelation other than your alleged 616, which we don't know was an accident or on purpose.

Can you prove that was a deliberate change and which is the original?

Here’s a list of discrepancies …



Rev 1:5 "having washed away our" vs. "having washed away" vs. "having washed you from" vs. "having freed us from" (later manuscripts) (The words "freed" and "washed" are identical in Greek except that "freed" has "ou" and "washed" has "u").

Rev 1:6 "forever and forever" vs. "forever" (2 words)

Rev 1:8 "Alpha and Omega" vs. "Alpha and Omega, beginning and ending" (3 words)

Rev 1:11 "saying, what..." (majority text, all modern translations) vs. "saying, I am the alpha and Omega, the first and last, and what..." (KJV, NKJV). 13 words not counted in the totals.

Rev 1:15 "they glowed / have been fired" vs. "it glowed / has been fired"

Rev 2:2 "labor" vs. "your labor"

Rev 2:7 "of God" (Sinaiticus, Alexandrinus, Ephraemi Rescriptus) vs. "my God" (Byzantine Lectionary, Sahidic Coptic, Bohairic Coptic, Ethiopic)

Rev 2:10 "Not at all" vs. "not" (2 letters difference)

Rev 2:10 "you will have" vs. "you are having/continue to have" (1 letter difference)

Rev 2:13 "my faith, even" vs. "my faith,"

Rev 2:13 "days" vs. "days which"

Rev 2:20 "woman" vs. "your woman"

Rev 2:22 "bed" vs. "sickbed"

Rev 2:22 "their works/deeds" vs. "her works/deeds" (2 words)

Rev 2:23 "your" vs. "our" vs. "her"

Rev 3:2 "things" vs. "works/deeds/actions"

Rev 3:5 "they" vs. "he"

Rev 4:7 "as of a man" vs. "as of men"

Rev 4:11 "they were" vs. "they are" (1 word)

Rev 5:1 "within and on the back" vs. "within and on the outside" vs. "on the outside and within"

Rev 5:4 "and" vs. "and I"

Rev 5:6 "the seven" vs. "the" (regardless, seven is mentioned previously)

Rev 5:9 "God" vs. "God of us" vs. "us"

Rev 5:10 "make them" vs. "make us"

Rev 5:10 "we shall reign" vs. left off one letter

Rev 5:13 "and" vs. "is and"

Rev 6:1 (and 2) "come" vs. "come and see" (different word for see) vs. "Come and look and see" vs. "come and be present and see"

Rev 6:2 "and see" vs. absent (together with the previous 1 one word)

Rev 6:3-4 "come" vs. "come and see"

Rev 6:4 "from/out from/because" (ek) vs. "from/away from/since" (apo)

Rev 6:5 "come" vs. "come and see" (2 words)

Rev 6:5 "and see" vs. "and see" (different Greek word for see) vs. (absent)

Rev 6:7 "come" vs. "come and see"

Rev 6:8 "see" vs. "see" (different Greek word)

Rev 6:8 "sitting upon" vs. sat on"

Rev 6:11 "should be fulfilled" vs. "should fulfill" 1 letter difference

Rev 6:12 "and" vs. "and behold"

Rev 6:17 "their" vs. "his"

Rev 7:4 "thousand" (xiliades) vs. (xeiliades) (spelling) (only Chester Beatty III) (1 letter)

Rev 7:12 (absent) vs. "amen"

Rev 8:8 "great with burning" vs. "great burning" (only in Philoxenian Syriac so 1 word not counted in the totals)

Rev 9:7 "like gold" vs. "golden"

Rev 9:13 "four horns" vs. "horns" (regardless, four is mentioned previously)

Rev 9:20 "neither" vs. "nor"

Rev 9:21 "sorcery" vs. "sorceries"

Rev 10:4 "when ... ?" vs. "as I was about"

Rev 10:6 "and the sea and the things in it" vs. (absent) (7 words)

Rev 10:7 "of themselves slaves the prophets" vs. "of the prophets themselves of slaves" vs. "of Himself slaves the prophets"

Rev 11:1 "staff" (p47, original Sinaiticus, Alexandrinus, Byzantine Lectionary, Sahidic Coptic, Bohairic Coptic, Ethiopic) vs. "staff and the angel stood" (2nd corrector of Sinaiticus, so not counted in the totals) (4 words)

Rev 11:2 "outside" vs. "inside" (1 letter difference)

Rev 11:9 "bodies" vs. "body"

Rev 11:12 "they heard" (original Sinaiticus, Alexandrinus, Ephraemi Rescriptus) vs. "I heard" (p47, corrected Sinaiticus, Sahidic Coptic, Bohairic Coptic)

Rev 11:17 "because" vs. "and because"

Rev 11:19 "that in Heaven" vs. "in Heaven"

Rev 12:18 "And it stood" vs. "And I stood"

Rev 13:1 "named of blasphemy" vs. "names of blasphemy"

Rev 13:6 "those in Heaven" vs. "And those in Heaven"

Rev 13:7 "to make war" vs. "war to make"

Rev 13:7 "saints" vs. "saints and overcame them" (2 words)

Rev 13:8 "whom (repeated)" vs. "of whom"

Rev 13:8 "belonging to Him" vs. (absent)

Rev 13:10 "into captivity, into captivity he goes" vs. "into captivity leads, into captivity he goes" vs. "into captivity he goes" vs. "into captivity gathers, into captivity he goes"

Rev 13:10 "killed, he" vs. "kill, he"

Rev 13:15 "might even speak and cause" vs. "speak, and he will cause"

Rev 13:17 "Even that not any" vs. "That not any"

Rev 13:18 "six hundred sixty-six" (spelled-out) vs. "666" vs. "616" (Irenaeus, who wrote about 182-188 A.D., in Against Heresies book 5 chapter 30 says "616" is most likely a copyist error and it is really "666".

Rev 14:1 "having the name" (Sinaiticus, Alexandrinus, Ephraemi Rescriptus) vs. "having name" (p47, Sahidic Coptic, Bohairic Coptic, Byzantine Lectionary) vs. "having the name of Him and His father's name (only in textus receptus and KJV according to New Age Bible Versions Refuted p.6)

Rev 14:3 "sing as a song" vs. "sing a song"

Rev 14:5 "unmarked" vs. "unmarked for"

Rev 14:6 "another angel" vs. "angel another"

Rev 14:8 "angel sound" vs. "second angel sound" vs. "second" vs. "angel"

Rev 14:13 "Yes says" vs. "says yes"

Rev 14:18 "went forth out of the altar" vs. "out of the altar went forth"

Rev 14:19 "great" (same meaning and the same grammar except a different declension)

Rev 15:3 "nature" vs. "all the natures" vs. "nations" vs. "ages" vs. "saints" (2 words)

Rev 15:4 "no not fear" vs. "you not fear" vs. "no not fear you" vs. "you no not fear"

Rev 15:6 "linen" vs. "linens"

Rev 16:3 "thing" vs. "thing. things in the sea" (3 words)

Rev 16:4 "it became" vs. "they became"

Rev 16:17 "temple from the throne" vs. "temple of heaven from the throne" vs. "Temple of God" (Sinaiticus - not counted in the totals) (2 words)

Rev 16:18 "man came into being" vs. "came into being man"

Rev 17:4 "fornication (porneia) of her" vs. "fornication (porneia) of the earth"

Rev 17:8 "will go" vs. "goes"

Rev 18:2 "demons, and a haven from every spirit unclean," vs. "demons," (5 words)

Rev 18:3 "of the wine of the anger" vs. "of the anger of the wine" vs. "of the wine" (3 words)

Rev 18:3 "have drunk of" vs. "have fallen by"

Rev 18:8 "Lord the God" vs. "God the Lord"

Rev 18:11 "in/on him" vs. "in/on me"

Rev 18:12 "of wood" (Sinaiticus, Ephraemi Rescriptus, Bohairic Coptic, Sahidic Coptic, Byzantine Lectionary, Armenian) vs. "of stone" (Alexandrinus, not counted in the totals)

Rev 18:17 "and those on" vs. "those passengers on"

Rev 18:22 "every craftsmen of every craft" vs. "every craftsman"

Rev 19:5 "and those fearing" vs. "those fearing"

Rev 19:6 "Lord our God" vs. "Lord God"

Rev 19:7 "let us have" (1st plural subjunctive) vs. "having" (1st plural indicative) vs. "we will give"

Rev 19:11 "being called faithful" vs. "faithful"

Rev 19:12 "him, as" vs. "him"

Rev 19:13 "having been dipped" vs. "having been passed"

Rev 20:6 "the" vs. (absent)

Rev 20:9 "from/out from/because" [ek] vs. "from/away from/since" [apo]

Rev 21:3 "peoples" vs. "people"

Rev 21:3 "with them will be their God" vs. "will be with them, God of them" vs. "will be with them, God of them" (order of 2 words)

Rev 21:4 "for the things first" vs. "things first"

Rev 21:5 "He says" vs. "He says to me"

Rev 21:12 "and the names" (Alexandrinus) vs. "and names" (Byzantine Lectionary) vs. "and" Sinaiticus, Armenian) (2 words)

Rev 22:14 "those who wash their robes" (Sinaiticus, Alexandrinus, Vulgate, Sahidic Coptic, Ethiopic) vs. "those doing his commands" (Byzantine Lectionary, Italic, Philoxenian Syriac, Bohairic Coptic, Tertullian, Cyprian, Armenian)

Rev 22:19 "take away their part in the tree of life" vs. "take away their part in the book of life" ("book" is only in the Vulgate and one or two Greek manuscripts, so it is nearly certain "book" was a copyist error.)

Rev 22:21 "Lord Jesus" vs. "Lord"

Rev 22:21 "with all" vs. "with all of you" "the saints / God's people"

Rev 22:21 (absent) (Alexandrinus) vs. "amen" at the end (Sinaiticus)

 

[grafted branch]

@Timtofly Well?

I just gave you over 100 potential alterations made to the book. Are you going to say with absolute certainty that none of them were intentional?

Have you found anyone that has experienced the literal plagues yet?

 

[Davidpt]

Hint, the Preterist have the plagues literally occurring to those in Jerusalem in the first century.

What does any of that have to do with Revelation 22:18 in particular?


Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

One can't apply the following to unbelieving Jews who don't take the NT to be holy writ to begin with---every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book. Which then means neither can this be applied to unbelieving Jews in the first century----If any man shall add unto these things

Can't add to these things unless the following is true first---every man that heareth(understands/believes) the words of the prophecy of this book


What should this be telling us in general in regards to Revelation 22:18? Shouldn't it be telling us that only professed believers can add unto these things? Unbelieving Jews aside. How about atheists, for example? Can this fit them if they are someone who doesn't even believe in God---every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book? Of course it can't fit them, because if it could they wouldn't remain atheists if they are able to hear the words of the prophecy of this book.

IOW, Revelation 22:18 is yet another passage that proves 'Not Once Saved Always Saved' , that this is Biblical. After all, if any of these vials of wrath are poured out on professed believers, you can bet that they will be cast into the LOF in the end. Thus NOSAS.

 

[grafted branch]

What does any of that have to do with Revelation 22:18 in particular?


Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

One can't apply the following to unbelieving Jews who don't take the NT to be holy writ to begin with---every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book. Which then means neither can this be applied to unbelieving Jews in the first century----If any man shall add unto these things

Can't add to these things unless the following is true first---every man that heareth(understands/believes) the words of the prophecy of this book


What should this be telling us in general in regards to Revelation 22:18? Shouldn't it be telling us that only professed believers can add unto these things? Unbelieving Jews aside. How about atheists, for example? Can this fit them if they are someone who doesn't even believe in God---every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book? Of course it can't fit them, because if it could they wouldn't remain atheists if they are able to hear the words of the prophecy of this book.

IOW, Revelation 22:18 is yet another passage that proves 'Not Once Saved Always Saved' , that this is Biblical. After all, if any of these vials of wrath are poured out on professed believers, you can bet that they will be cast into the LOF in the end. Thus NOSAS.

I’ve heard Preterist say that the Revelation 22 warning was meant specifically for those to whom the book was written. Just as Philemon 1:23 isn’t meant for us today.

Philemon 1:23 There salute thee Epaphras, my fellowprisoner in Christ Jesus;

If the warning was meant only for those in the first century and Revelation was written prior to 70AD, then you can have the plagues being literally fulfilled and anyone currently adding to the book not being subject to the literal plagues.

So if an unbelieving Jew tried to alter the book because some believing Jews were telling them about it then it could make sense if it all happened in the first century. Obviously it doesn’t make sense today, but a Preterist would just say that is further evidence that it’s referring to events that took place in the first century.

 

[DeHare]

In Revelation 22:18 we see the promise that God will add the plagues that are written in this book to anyone who adds to the things (in this book).

Revelation 15:1 tells us the seven angels have the seven last plagues, then Revelation 16 describes these plagues as bowls being poured out.

I would say these plagues have to be non-literal, spiritual events that have happened to those who have added to the scriptures in the past and are now dead.

If these plagues are literal and still future events then it would seem that those who have added and are dead would have to be resurrected in order to have the plagues added to them, however I don’t know of anyone who holds the view of people being resurrected in order to experience the plagues.

How can the plagues be literal and added to someone who is now dead if they added to the book while they were alive?

IMO, Revelations 22:18 has to do with those who create nonsensical doctrines that are either unscriptural or taken out of context i.e. Mariolatory. Here is quote regarding the Black Plague alone:

"Europe suffered an especially significant death toll from the (Black) plague. Modern estimates range between roughly one third and one half of the total European population in the five-year period of 1347 to 1351 died during which the most severely-affected areas may have lost up to 80% of the population."

The plagues dissipated during the Reformation -- when extrabiblical doctrines were jettisoned from many churches. Just my opinion on the matter.

 

[grafted branch]

IMO, Revelations 22:18 has to do with those who create nonsensical doctrines that are either unscriptural or taken out of context i.e. Mariolatory. Here is quote regarding the Black Plague alone:

"Europe suffered an especially significant death toll from the (Black) plague. Modern estimates range between roughly one third and one half of the total European population in the five-year period of 1347 to 1351 died during which the most severely-affected areas may have lost up to 80% of the population."

The plagues dissipated during the Reformation -- when extrabiblical doctrines were jettisoned from many churches. Just my opinion on the matter.

Ok thanks for that, we have something to work with here.

From Wikipedia the origin of the black plague is disputed but genetic analysis suggests about 600 BC on the China border. How many outbreaks in the early years isn’t known but it was introduced to Europe in 1347. After the initial wave of the plague it remained and there were repeated outbreaks in Europe and the Mediterranean throughout the 14th to 17th centuries.
Another wave started in China in 1855 and spread to all inhabited continents. It killed 10 million in India alone.
The plague continued on in various areas of the world, sometimes the outbreaks affected small areas while other outbreaks affected multiple regions.
The first epidemic of the plague in the US occurred in San Francisco in 1900 to 1904, a second wave started in 1907.



I can see your point on the reformation and how it might align with the plague in Europe but the plague has resurfaced several times since then and it may have caused an epidemic elsewhere prior to the European outbreak, we simply don’t know.

Have you tried to align all the various waves of this particular plague with the rise and fall of questionable doctrine in the church?