Jesus's "siblings"

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Sigma

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Look to the Aramaic-- you know? The language they spoke and used, rather than the language the scriptures were translated into (Greek)

There is a word for brother---- "aho" which rendered into Greek becomes adelphos

There is also a word for cousin-- and it's specific to son of my father's brother. (son of my uncle) "bar dodo."

The term “ben dod" בן דוד, meaning “son of uncle," is modern Hebrew. In ancient Hebrew, there was no word specifically for "cousin." And what's the word "Aho?" Another modern Hebrew word?

Now, a kinsman, or relative, can refer to siblings, cousins, nephews, or uncles, etc. That's why the Septuagint translators, for example, substituted the Hebrew words "אחים" ('âchiem) in Gen. 13:8 with its Greek equivalent "ἀδελφοί" (adelphoi), and "אָח" ('âch) in Gen 14:14 with its Greek equivalent "ἀδελφός" (adelphos) to show kinship between Abraham and Lot, which lineage shows were that of uncle and nephew: "εἶπεν δὲ Αβραμ τῷ Λωτ Μὴ ἔστω μάχη ἀνὰ μέσον ἐμοῦ καὶ σοῦ καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τῶν ποιμένων μου καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τῶν ποιμένων σου. ὅτι ἄνθρωποι ἀδελφοὶ ἡμεῖς ἐσμεν." (Gen. 13:8) and "ἀκούσας δὲ Αβραμ ὅτι ᾐχμαλώτευται Λωτ ὁ ἀδελφὸς αὐτοῦ, ἠρίθμησεν τοὺς ἰδίους οἰκογενεῖς αὐτοῦ, τριακοσίους δέκα καὶ ὀκτώ, καὶ κατεδίωξεν ὀπίσω αὐτῶν ἕως Δαν." (Gen. 14:14)

The Septuagint translators substituted the Hebrew word "אָח" ('âch) in Gen. 29:15 with the Greek equivalent "ἀδελφός" (adelphos) to show kinship between Jacob and Laban, which lineage shows were that of uncle and nephew: "Εἶπε δὲ Λάβαν τῷ ᾿Ιακώβ· ὅτι γὰρ ἀδελφός μου εἶ, οὐ δουλεύσεις μοι δωρεάν· ἀπάγγειλόν μοι, τίς ὁ μισθός σου ἐστί;" (Gen. 29:15)

The Septuagint translators substituted the Hebrew word "אחים" ('âchiem) in 1 Chr. 23:21–22 with the Greek equivalent "ἀδελφοὶ" (adelphoi) to show it was kin the daughters of Eleazar married, which lineage shows was their cousins: "καὶ ἀπέθανεν Ελεαζαρ, καὶ οὐκ ἦσαν αὐτῷ υἱοὶ ἀλλ᾽ ἢ θυγατέρες, καὶ ἔλαβον αὐτὰς υἱοὶ Κις ἀδελφοὶ αὐτῶν." (1 Chr. 23:22)

Lastly-- and with this I'm done here..... there is still another Greek word that specifies "cousin" that could/should have been used if that's what was meant-- and it's anepsios -- not adelphios.
If the writer wanted to convey that these were simply cousins and not actual adelphos "brothers' they could have used the word "suggenes" to remove all doubt that these are mere relatives and NOT brothers.

It's used in Luke 1 to describe the relationship between Mary and 'her cousin" Elizabeth. Note that they are not called "sisters" (aldelphos) but suggenes (relatives)-- and we know that they are cousins.

Yes, it's the same Greek word for brothers and sisters--- adelphos. But if the meaning is indeed cousins-- Suggenes is used.

:face palm:

Good God.

Firstly, it's not that kinsmen/relatives are different from siblings. A sibling, cousin, nephew, niece, uncle, aunt, etc., is a kinsman, or relative.

Secondly, the Koine Greek word "συγγενίς" (syngenis) was applied to Elizabeth in Lk. 1:36, and its textbook definitions are "kinswoman, or female relative" and "a fellow countryman." You assert that Elizabeth was Mary of Joseph's cousin, but how do you know its definition "kinswoman, or female relative" and not the other one applies in that verse? If you can show how you know, now present what evidence you have to show that cousin was the type of kinswoman/relative, e.g., sibling, cousin, or aunt, etc., that Elizabeth was to Mary. Without evidence to support that it's just an assumption.

Thirdly, you acknowledge that there's more than one word in the Koine Greek language that can be used to refer to various types of family members, such as cousins, which is why it's weird and asinine that at the same time you essentially argue, "That Koine Greek word that can be used to refer to cousins wouldn't have been used, but rather this Koine Greek word that can also be used to refer to cousins would've been used."

What you're not understanding or accepting is that when referring to one's cousin(s), the use of any of the Koine Greek words that can be used to refer to cousins, which includes "ἀδελφοί" (adelphoi), aptly applies. The only difference between "ἀδελφοί"(adelphoi) and "ἀνεψιός" (anepsios), for example, is that the former doesn't have the direct definition "cousin," or that of any other type of family member, but rather the broad "kinsmen, or relative," though it can still refer to various types of family members, including cousins, indirectly.

Regarding Matt. 13:55/Mk.6:3, the context shows the definition of "ἀδελφοί" (adelphoi) that applies to Jesus's brothers in those verses is "kinsman, or relative," but since that definition can refer to a range of different types of family members, e.g., siblings, cousins, nephews, or uncles, etc., it means we can't determine from the definition itself what type of family members Jesus's brothers (kinsmen/relatives) were to Him. That's why one needs more information to go on to find that out. You assert that siblings were the type of family members Jesus's brothers (kinsmen/relatives) were to Him, but when I asked you to provide information to support that you didn't give any. Instead, you just said you assume that because there's no reason not to. Well, I've explained the reason not to, and without evidence to support your assumption it remains just that.

I, however, have actually given something (scriptural verses and early Christian testimonies), which is better than your nothing, to show those kinsmen/relatives of Jesus were the sons of Jesus's uncle, and thus His cousins. Another thing you don't do is actually show why that evidence of mine doesn't show what I claim it does.
 
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Sigma

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The Koine Greek word "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos [brother];pl. adelphoi [brothers])
Yep. Exactly.

:face palm:

Let's go over what you just said, which is "Yep. Exactly" to the following, as if what's in brackets is its definition, but it's rather just the English translation of the Koine Greek word, next to its transliteration:

"The Koine Greek word "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos [brother];pl. adelphoi [brothers])"

What's interesting is you would've already known what I was actually saying when you misrepresented me, because you deliberately left out the rest of my quote where I said,

"has the following textbook definitions:

'fellow-countryman,' 'disciple/follower,' 'one of the same faith," and 'kinsman, or relative,' etc."

You only embarrass yourself. Bravo.

Anyway, as you can see, "sibling," nor any other type of family member, is neither a direct nor only definition. The only familial definition the word "ἀδελφός" has is "kinsman, or relative," which can refer to siblings, cousins, nephews, or uncles, etc.

You read the words "brother(s)" and "sister(s) and assume it refers to sibling(s).

That's not how this works. If it was, for example, the following verse would mean Jesus appeared to over five hundred siblings:

"After that He appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters..." (1 Cor. 15:6)

It's an asinine form of reasoning.
 
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Truthnightmare

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:face palm:

Let's go over what you just said, which is "Yep. Exactly" to the following, as if what's in brackets is its definition, but it's rather just the English translation of the Koine Greek word, next to its transliteration:

"The Koine Greek word "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos [brother];pl. adelphoi [brothers])"

What's interesting is you would've already known what I was actually saying when you misrepresented me, because you deliberately left out the rest of my quote where I said,

"has the following textbook definitions:

'fellow-countryman,' 'disciple/follower,' 'one of the same faith," and 'kinsman, or relative,' etc."

You only embarrass yourself. Bravo.

Anyway, as you can see, "sibling," nor any other type of family member, is neither a direct nor only definition. The only familial definition the word "ἀδελφός" has is "kinsman, or relative," which can refer to siblings, cousins, nephews, or uncles, etc.

You read the words "brother(s)" and "sister(s) and assume it refers to sibling(s).

That's not how this works. If it was, for example, the following verse would mean Jesus appeared to over five hundred siblings:

"After that He appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters..." (1 Cor. 15:6)

It's an asinine form of reasoning.
So to clarify….

Psalms 69:8 "I am become a stranger unto my brethren, And an alien unto my mother's children.

Are the children spoken of here siblings?
 

Sigma

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So to clarify….

Psalms 69:8 "I am become a stranger unto my brethren, And an alien unto my mother's children.

Are the children spoken of here siblings?

Again, in Ps. 69:8 the Koine Greek word used is "υἱός," or "sons" in English. The verse is a foreshadowing of Jesus being made an outcast among His own people. The "mother's son's" represents others from His motherland, in this case other Jews from the land of Israel.

It's my understanding you believe Ps. 69 is evidence Jesus had siblings, yet nowhere in the New Testament are the four kinsmen/relatives of Jesus that you assert were His siblings called His "siblings," "half-siblings," "half-brothers," or even "the sons of Joseph and Mary." Only Jesus, not any of His alleged "siblings," was called the son of Joseph and Mary. The OT is full of foreshadowing and prophecies that come to fruition in the NT that we read about, except His alleged siblings. The reason why is because they weren't His siblings, but rather the sons of Jesus's uncle, and thus His cousins, as shown in the opening post.
 
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Sigma

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Read my post number 72 it name all of them.

I read it. So, you believe Joseph, Simon, James, Judas (Jude/Thaddeus), and the unnamed women of Jesus in Matt. 13:55-56/Mk. 6:3-4 were the sons and daughters of Joseph and Mary.

However,
  • only Jesus is called the son of Joseph and Mary.
  • Jesus's brothers and sisters are only called just that: "ἀδελφοί" (adelphoi;brothers) and "αδελφαι" (adelphai;sisters). These Koine Greek words share the following textbook definitions: "fellow-countryman," "disciple/follower," "one of the same faith," and "kinsman/woman, or relative," etc.
The context of Matt. 13:55-56/Mk. 6:3-4 shows that the definition "kinsman/woman, or relative" applies to Jesus's brothers and sisters in those verses, but that can refer to various types of family members, e.g., sibling, cousins, nephews, nieces, uncles, or aunts, etc.You haven't provided any evidence that shows Jesus's brothers and sisters (kinsmen/relatives) in Matt. 13:55-56/Mk. 6:3 were the sons of Joseph and Mary, and thus His siblings. The reason why is because you can't, as they weren't His siblings, but rather the sons of Jesus's uncle, and thus His cousins, as shown in the opening post.
 
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Pearl

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It's not stated in any writings of God that Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were the sons of Joseph and Mary, but rather only Jesus is called the son of Joseph and Mary (Matt. 13:55, Mk. 6:3).

The word "πρωτότοκος" (prōtotokos), or "firstborn" in English, has multiple definitions. You assume the definition "eldest" applies in Lk. 2:7, but an assumption isn't proof.
If you believe that Mary remained a virgin and had no other children apart from Jesus then you are probably a Roman Catholic. Their beliefs are well known for being unbiblical.
 

Cassandra

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Actually, the OP disproving the teaching that Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were Jesus's siblings in and of itself does not prove that Mary of Joseph was a perpetual Virgin.



In Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, Joseph, Simon, James, Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) are called Jesus's "ἀδελφοί" (adelphoi). This Koine Greek word has the following textbook definitions: "fellow-countryman," "disciple/follower," "one of the same faith," and "kinsman, or relative," etc. As you can see, it doesn't have the specific familial definition "sibling," but rather the broad familial definition "kinsman, or relative" which can refer to a range of different types of family members, e.g., siblings, cousins, nephews, or uncles, etc.

The evidence in the opening post shows that Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the sons of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and his wife Mary of Clopas (Cleophas/Alphaeus), and thus makes them Jesus's cousins.
oh boy! We've been through this --no it doesn't

It's the same old song.
 

Pearl

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This thread is disproving the teaching that Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were the sons of Joseph and Mary, which in and of itself does not prove that Mary of Joseph was a perpetual Virgin.



You believe that Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were the sons of Joseph and Mary, but only Jesus is called the son of Joseph and Mary (Matt. 13:55, Mk. 6:3), and the word "πρωτότοκος" (prōtotokos), or "firstborn" in English, has multiple definitions. You assume the definition "eldest" applies in Lk. 2:7, but an assumption isn't proof. Therefore, would you say that this belief of yours is un-biblical?
It was a long time since I posted on this thread and I have no desire to re-open it.
 

Pearl

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Care to support that statement?
What is the point of digging this up again? It makes absolutely no difference to our relationship with Jesus, and it makes no difference to our salvation. It is obvious that Roman Catholics have interpreted the scriptures in a way that supports their claims.
 

Cassandra

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That bible says Jesus had brothers, and that Mary was no longer a virgin after she had Jesus. Over and over again in this thread.
You will go to any lengths to continue to say Mary is a virgin.
 
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Jude Thaddeus

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Do you believe Jesus's brothers Joseph, Simon, James, Judas (Jude/Thaddeus), and unnamed sisters in Matt. 13:55-56/Mk. 6:3-4 were His half-siblings?
You have done an excellent job in the 3 OP's. It's really a matter of believing 18th century liberalism. Before that, not a single Protestant church or teacher believed Mary had other children. Why do I claim that? Because none of the early reformers taught it. It's a 200 year old liberalist invention. It slowly crept in like a cancer infecting most of Protestantism.
+++
All of the early Protestant Founders accepted the truth of the perpetual virginity of Mary. How could this be, if it is merely “tradition” with no scriptural basis? Why was its supposed violation of Scripture not so obvious to them, as it is to the Protestants of the last 150 years or so (since the onset of theological liberalism) who have ditched this previously held opinion? Yet it has become fashionable to believe that Jesus had blood brothers (I suspect, because this contradicts Catholic teaching), contrary to the original consensus of the early Protestants.

Let’s see what the founders of Protestantism taught about this doctrine. If Catholics are so entrenched in what has been described as “silly,” “desperate,” “obviously false,” “unbiblical tradition” here, then so are many Protestant luminaries such as Luther, Calvin, and Wesley. Strangely enough, however, current-day Protestant critics of Catholicism rarely aim criticism at them. I guess the same “errors” are egregious to a different degree, depending on who accepts and promulgates them — sort of like the Orwellian proverb from Animal Farm: “all people are equal, but some are more equal than others.”

But I know the drill. "I don't follow the reformers, I follow the Bible!" Ironically, that's the purest form of reformism.
 
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Jude Thaddeus

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Going back to the early Church, there was the belief that Mary of Joseph was not a perpetual Virgin and had other children. The early Church fathers wrote letters (available to read online) to those who held such a beliefs calling it heresy, etc.

There were even this group of people: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Antidicomarianites

So, since the beginning of Christianity, the teaching that Jesus's Mother was not a perpetual Virgin and had other children has been refuted and deemed heresy. I understand that Protestants want to believe what they'd rather believe, but then there's reality.
THE RESURRECTION OF THE ANTIDICOMARITE HERESY AFTER 1400 YEARS

Augustine​

“Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).

What we have today is the same poop in a different toilet.
 
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Pearl

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Whether or not you find this topic relevant to your relationship with Jesus and salvation, you have a belief regarding it that you chose to share. Would say that belief is un-biblical, since only Jesus is called the son of Joseph and Mary (Matt. 13:55, Mk. 6:3), and you assume that the definition "eldest" applies to the word "πρωτότοκος" (prōtotokos), or "firstborn" in English, in Lk. 2:7?
Get a life. You are obsessed.
 

Pearl

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My question was prompted by your statement that Christians (Catholics) have un-biblical beliefs. You believe that Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were the sons of Joseph and Mary, despite only Jesus being called the son of Joseph and Mary in the Bible (Matt. 13:55, Mk. 6:3). Therefore, would you say that this belief of yours is un-biblical?
Here is my answer to your question @Soulx8 :-

My belief that Jesus had siblings whose mother was Mary and whose father was Joseph and that therefore Mary was not a perpetual virgin who denied her husband a husband's rights, is based on what the scriptures say. AND I will not be quoting chapter and verse YET AGAIN. If you really want to know, then you can look back through the old posts.
 

Pearl

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You require that a belief be found in the Bible in order to be true. You believe that Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were the sons of Joseph and Mary. I've already read the New Testament, as well as every post in this thread, and there's no scriptural verse where those four men are called the sons of Joseph and Mary, much less the siblings of Jesus. Why do you ignore your own standard and believe something un-biblical?
@Soulx8 I am not interested in discussing this any further. I hope you find your answers. Going to God is the best place to start. Please do not reply to me any more.
 

Jude Thaddeus

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Here is my answer to your question @Soulx8 :-

My belief that Jesus had siblings whose mother was Mary and whose father was Joseph and that therefore Mary was not a perpetual virgin who denied her husband a husband's rights, is based on what the scriptures say. AND I will not be quoting chapter and verse YET AGAIN. If you really want to know, then you can look back through the old posts.
You don't to go back very far. If Soulx8 is obsessed, then you are a professed Antidicomarite. See post #131&132
Instead if trading insults, let's stick to Sacred Scripture.
@Sigma uses scripture alone for her explanations, you use post-enlightenment era polemics unheard of before the 18th century, and borrowed from heretics from the 4rth century.
The Protoevangelium of James A.D. 120. is not official Church teaching, it's official history that gives you conniptions.

Origen, A.D. 248, wrote less than 200 years after the death of John, gives his writings more weight than the opinions of an ex-Congregationist minister 2 millennium removed from the Early Church.

Hilary of Poitiers, Athanasius, Epiphanius of Salamis, Jerome, Didymus the Blind, Ambrose of Milan all supported the PVM, all in harmony, before the NT was canonized. How can you claim to identify with the early church with no evidence?

Martin Luther, Ulrich Zwingli, John Calvin (at least early in his career), and other early Protestant figures all recognized that the perpetual virginity of Mary is taught in the Bible. Unfortunately, over the centuries since the Reformation, their theological descendants have lost their way in this regard. Today, few Protestants recognize the truth, let alone the Biblical basis, of Mary’s perpetual virginity.
Oh, I know the drill. You are not a Protestant.:rolleyes: