Luke 21:20-22 Are We Close, Jerusalem Encompassed By Armies?

[3 Resurrections]

What about the split in the Mount of Olives described in verse 4? That hasn't happened yet.

If you are thinking that this Zechariah 14:4 verse is describing something like a meat cleaver chopping the Mount of Olives in half, of course that never happened. The translation of this verse is off track. Try reading it in the LXX instead of the KJV or other translations like it.

An earthquake (just as in the days of King Uzziah) was going to occur when Christ returned to the Mount of Olives. The crest of the Mount of Olives would break apart and "lean" in all directions - north, south, east and west. The landslide rubble from this earthquake would roll downhill, and as a result, Zechariah 14:4-5 says that "the valley shall be blocked up as far as Azal". This was the Kidron Valley being "blocked up" with that landslide rubble produced by the earthquake at Christ's return. Nobody was going to "flee" to Azal through a valley - this is a mistranslation of the verb in that verse. The location of "Azal" is the same as the point of the "Wadi Yasul" on today's maps - a point just to the southeast of what used to form that corner of Jerusalem's walls where the Hinnom Valley and the Kidron Valley converge.

Significantly, archaeologists have discovered that there is a deep layer of rubble deposited in the Kidron Valley from the first century, which has raised the bed of that Kidron Valley some 40' higher than it used to be back in Christ's days. It has also moved the bed of the Kidron Valley about 70' further away from the wall of Jerusalem on that eastern side. In other words, an appreciable change took place in the topography of the landscape next to the Mount of Olives since the first century. Why is that do you suppose?

 

[3 Resurrections]

So when did this happen?

Zechariah 14:12
12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.

That was the plague of starvation in Jerusalem - so sudden and acute that the flesh of men would "dissolve" as they stood upon their feet. This affected the beasts also (Zech. 14:15). Anyone knowing the history of the siege which Titus began in the spring of AD 70 just after Passover started realizes that the rapid onset of starvation for millions in Jerusalem was overwhelming to the city's inhabitants.

It also did not help that the Zealots themselves burned up all the excess grain supplies in Jerusalem at that point in AD 70 - supplies which could have sustained survival during a siege for a couple years. They burned up their own grain supplies to prevent those supplies from aiding their competing Zealot leaders and their armies. Absolute suicidal mentality brought about by demonic possession which was rife within the city at the time (as Revelation 18:2 predicted, as well as Christ in Matthew 12:43-45).

When you combine this burning up of Jerusalem's grain supplies with the millions who arrived at Jerusalem for Passover being trapped suddenly within the city by Titus and his Roman armies, this produced immediate and desperate starvation for the city's inhabitants. It was starvation so immediate and desperate for so many that it is not an exaggeration for Zechariah to say that their flesh "dissolved " as they stood upon their feet. People starting dying by the cartload from then on.

 

[RedFan]

If you are thinking that this Zechariah 14:4 verse is describing something like a meat cleaver chopping the Mount of Olives in half, of course that never happened. The translation of this verse is off track. Try reading it in the LXX instead of the KJV or other translations like it.

Okay, I’ve looked at the LXX version. And the split of the Mount of Olives is described just as I was thinking, ἥμισυ αὐτοῦ πρὸς ἀνατολὰς καὶ τὸ ἥμισυ αὐτοῦ πρὸς θάλασσαν (“half of it towards the east and half of it towards the west”).

 

[3 Resurrections]

Okay, I’ve looked at the LXX version. And the split of the Mount of Olives is described just as I was thinking, ἥμισυ αὐτοῦ πρὸς ἀνατολὰς καὶ τὸ ἥμισυ αὐτοῦ πρὸς θάλασσαν (“half of it towards the east and half of it towards the west”).

Don't forget it says North and South also. "And half the mountain shall lean to the north, and half of it to the south."

What do you think happens when an earthquake occurs for a mountain? Rocks split apart in all directions and fall downhill, just as Zechariah predicted that the Valley would be "blocked up" and "closed up" by these effects from the earthquake.

 

[RedFan]

Don't forget it says North and South also. "And half the mountain shall lean to the north, and half of it to the south."

What do you think happens when an earthquake occurs for a mountain? Rocks split apart in all directions and fall downhill, just as Zechariah predicted that the Valley would be "blocked up" and "closed up" by these effects from the earthquake.

Actually the LXX doesn't use σεισμοῦ ("earthquake") in verse 4. It says χάος μέγα σφόδρα· ("exceedingly great chaos"). The analogy in verse 5 is to the valley being blocked, ἐμφραχθήσεται φάραγξ ὀρέων μου ("the valley of my mountains will be obstructed") by the joining of the two cleft sides of the mountain, as in the days of the Uzziah earthquake. But we aren't told -- although perhaps we are to infer -- that the Uzziah earthquake impacted the Mount of Olives. If both events reference the same location, it will be incumbent on the geoseismic engineers to distiguish evidence of two separate earthquakes, one in Uzziah's reign and another as predicted by Zechariah. Evidence that there was AN earthquake there is not enough. I know you said that

an appreciable change took place in the topography of the landscape next to the Mount of Olives since the first century

but I'd like to take a look at that evidence for myself. Can you point me to it?

Reading the verse in Greek for the first time, I notice that there is not a hint of the "fleeing" that most English translations of verse 5 include. Very interesting!

 

[bluedragon]

And ten years later .........

Israel is still surrounded ......

 

[3 Resurrections]

Actually the LXX doesn't use σεισμοῦ ("earthquake") in verse 4. It says χάος μέγα σφόδρα· ("exceedingly great chaos"). The analogy in verse 5 is to the valley being blocked, ἐμφραχθήσεται φάραγξ ὀρέων μου ("the valley of my mountains will be obstructed") by the joining of the two cleft sides of the mountain, as in the days of the Uzziah earthquake. But we aren't told -- although perhaps we are to infer -- that the Uzziah earthquake impacted the Mount of Olives. If both events reference the same location, it will be incumbent on the geoseismic engineers to distiguish evidence of two separate earthquakes, one in Uzziah's reign and another as predicted by Zechariah. Evidence that there was AN earthquake there is not enough. I know you said that

but I'd like to take a look at that evidence for myself. Can you point me to it?

Reading the verse in Greek for the first time, I notice that there is not a hint of the "fleeing" that most English translations of verse 5 include. Very interesting!

I was first alerted to this LXX version of Zechariah 14:4-5 several years ago by a poster on one of the Christian forums (gracecentered.com in their Eschatology forum section) where I am a member. They entitled their post "Ye shall NOT flee to Azal". I noticed just now that a post by almost the same title is also found at another Christian form where I am also a member (christianforums.com in their Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy forum). It is called "You shall not flee to Azal - Zechariah 14:5", with a discussion that followed back in June of 2018. That poster states that it was Josephus who described the effects of Uzziah's earthquake on the Mount of Olives landscape in Antiquities of the Jew (9.10.4.225), and there is a google maps link for Azal's location.

You may also be interested in "The Biblical World" by Rev. J. L. Leeper, with the section entitled "Remains of the Temple at Jerusalem" (pp 329-341). This described the change in the depth of the Kidron Valley's bed level since Christ's days.

And yes, I have read that archaeologists have actually found two layers of earthquake rubble lying in the Kidron Valley - one dating from Uzziah's generation and also from the first century. I can't produce that source for you off the bat, but I'll look back through my journal notes to see if I can find it again.

 

[Truth7t7]

Human history on this planet has continued to flow after Christ's second coming, as it is presented in scripture. Have you never recognized these texts? A third coming of Christ is absolutely essential so that those saints who live and die in this period after Christ's second coming will also receive a bodily resurrection, as promised for all the saints.

The verse you give from Hebrew 9:28 which describes Christ's "second time" in appearing does NOT negate a third coming. It is only describing the second coming appearance of Christ, which Christ said would happen before some of those He was speaking to in Matthew 16:27-28 had died. This second time of Christ's appearing already occurred in AD 70, at the end of Daniel's 1,335 days.

The "END" you mention is the same "END of all things" which 1 Peter 4:7 said was then "AT HAND" in his own days. But it was not said to be the end of all human history. It was the end of those particular "latter days" for Israel as the "holy people" before their power was shattered (Daniel 12:7), but not the end of all human history.

What would be a heresy would be to deny a future bodily resurrection for us. I have never said this, and scripture doesn't say this either. The charge of "heresy" is like the term "racism". Both are thrown around rather too freely where they do not apply.

I disagree, you present another gospel not found in the holy scripture, you falsely teach Jesus Christ physically returned in 70AD, laughable!

 

[3 Resurrections]

I disagree, you present another gospel not found in the holy scripture, you falsely teach Jesus Christ physically returned in 70AD, laughable!

...and you are still failing to address the scriptures brought up that prove an AD 70 return for Christ to the Mount of Olives before that first-century generation had passed away.

Why should this bother you that Christ returned back then in the first century as He said He was going to, and that He has scheduled a third coming to resurrect you and me in a final resurrection and judgment in our future? Every saint receives their promised bodily resurrection - but in three separate stages and not just two resurrection events. This is not "another gospel". It is most certainly found in scripture, or I wouldn't be presenting it here online.

 

[RedFan]

I was first alerted to this LXX version of Zechariah 14:4-5 several years ago by a poster on one of the Christian forums (gracecentered.com in their Eschatology forum section) where I am a member. They entitled their post "Ye shall NOT flee to Azal". I noticed just now that a post by almost the same title is also found at another Christian form where I am also a member (christianforums.com in their Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy forum). It is called "You shall not flee to Azal - Zechariah 14:5", with a discussion that followed back in June of 2018. That poster states that it was Josephus who described the effects of Uzziah's earthquake on the Mount of Olives landscape in Antiquities of the Jew (9.10.4.225), and there is a google maps link for Azal's location.

You may also be interested in "The Biblical World" by Rev. J. L. Leeper, with the section entitled "Remains of the Temple at Jerusalem" (pp 329-341). This described the change in the depth of the Kidron Valley's bed level since Christ's days.

And yes, I have read that archaeologists have actually found two layers of earthquake rubble lying in the Kidron Valley - one dating from Uzziah's generation and also from the first century. I can't produce that source for you off the bat, but I'll look back through my journal notes to see if I can find it again.

Much obliged.

 

[Truth7t7]

...and you are still failing to address the scriptures brought up that prove an AD 70 return for Christ to the Mount of Olives before that first-century generation had passed away.

Why should this bother you that Christ returned back then in the first century as He said He was going to, and that He has scheduled a third coming to resurrect you and me in a final resurrection and judgment in our future? Every saint receives their promised bodily resurrection - but in three separate stages and not just two resurrection events. This is not "another gospel". It is most certainly found in scripture, or I wouldn't be presenting it here online.

Your Claims Are Absolutely Not Found In Scripture, It's Against Christian Orthodoxy

Jesus Christ didn't return physically/bodily in 70AD as you claim, that's Alice in wonderland, aesops fables, follow the yellow brick road to the kingdom of OZ

Big Smiles!

 

[Scott Downey]

When Christ comes a second time is here in Hebrews 9, we still are waiting for that return.

23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be [j]purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are [k]copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

v26 'has appeared once at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
That was His first advent, crucifixion death and resurrection. The Gospel by which you stand in the faith.

We eagerly await His second appearing apart from sin for salvation.
His second appearing mean our deliverance from this present evil age in which we find ourselves.
It is our salvation from that spoken here. And this evil age is still with us today.
When Christ returns again it will not be for sin as in to forgive people their sins, it will be for a fiery judgement of the wicked, evil rulers and people of this age. Believer's sins, Christ has already put away by His sacrifice for them.
His returning is our salvation.

spoken of also in 1 Peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance [b]incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been [c]grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not [d]seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.



His return will be an amazing thing for believers, and every eye will see Him returning, even those who pierced Him.
Even the dead in hell will be witness to it.
Rev 1
4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:

Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.

To Him who [b]loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us [c]kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, [d]the Beginning and the End,” says the [e]Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”


Christ here points this out, saying 'who is to come', that is to come again that second time, here in 2 Thess 1

God’s Final Judgment and Glory​

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [a]tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest[b] evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Scott Downey]

Hebrews 10:11-13​

​

New King James Version​

​

​

Christ’s Death Perfects the Sanctified​

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.

Christ sat down at the right hand of GOD WAITING TILL HIS ENEMIES are made His footstool.
So Christ did not return in 70AD, but yes angels and demons and people carried out His judgements on Jerusalem as they had also in millennia past times before that. So, I don't read of Christ leaving the Father until His re appearing a second time. Which I posted about in 2 Thess 1

Christ still has enemies today! Christ is still waiting seated at God's right hand, waiting for God the Father to tell Him it is the time to reap the world.

 

[APAK]

I'm not sure. But whether it has been fulfilled or not plays no role in my belief that armies won't be marching on Jerusalem any time soon.

They won't be marching in anymore as they once did, they will have their missiles flying into Jerusalem.

 

[Jack]

I disagree, you present another gospel not found in the holy scripture, you falsely teach Jesus Christ physically returned in 70AD, laughable!

Preterist would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad!

 

[Duck Muscles]

Israel is precisely where God put them. As such they were always encompassed by enemies.

What is surprising today is it would appear our elected officials are also adversarial. Insisting on a concessionary stance by Israel and to an enemy that would prefer them dead.

In all the oil rich region their tiny parcel is devoid of crude reservoirs. Maybe if there was oil there D.C would behave differently.

Yet, tiny Israel does have a resource far more valuable than crude oil beneath their tiny plot of land. Water!

 

[3 Resurrections]

Preterist would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad!

What on earth is so sad about Preterism? The scriptures proves that Satan's entire realm has been dead and gone since AD 70. We are presently occupying the New Jerusalem reality, with its open gates of invitation to the nations to enter and be healed. The wicked are outside those New Jerusalem gates still, just as Revelation 22 pictured, and the Great Commission task for the believers is still in effect in these conditions of the New Heavens and New Earth. Fortunately, we don't have to battle Satan and his forces anymore to accomplish this.

Heaven is occupied by all the resurrected righteous from creation until AD 70, and an increasing number of the souls of the righteous waiting there to also receive their bodily resurrection at the end of fallen mankind's history in the final judgment, ridding this planet of all remnants of human evil for all time. The wicked dead from Creation forward until AD 70 have all been destroyed.

Armageddon and the Gog Magog predictions are now in the ancient past, as well as all the Beasts of Revelation also having passed away back then. The "mark" is no longer a threat to us, nor is the Antichrist who died in AD 66. Revelation's seals, trumpets and vial judgments are all in the ancient past, and are not something we need to dread happening in our future.

It is Dispensational pre-mil teaching and the like that is fear-mongering and enslavement to a doctrine that essentially calls Christ a liar for not fulfilling His promises of a first-century return. THIS denial of Christ's statements is the definition of something truly sad.

 

[3 Resurrections]

When Christ comes a second time is here in Hebrews 9, we still are waiting for that return.

No, we today are not waiting for the second appearance of Christ. We are waiting on the final third appearance at His next return.

Christ still has enemies today! Christ is still waiting seated at God's right hand, waiting for God the Father to tell Him it is the time to reap the world.

Christ now "rules in the midst of His enemies". And there is more than just a single "reaping" of the harvested bodies of the saints out of the ground. Israel's agricultural harvests (after which the Mosaic laws and rituals were carefully patterned) had no less and no more than THREE harvests during the year. One barley harvest at Passover, one wheat harvest at Pentecost, and the final "feast of ingathering" for the rest of the crops of the field in the seventh month for the Feast of Tabernacles.

The "harvests" of the bodies of the saints out of the ground likewise follow this same pattern of three separate events. There have already been two bodily resurrection events which fell during Passover in AD 33 and Pentecost day in AD 70. We await the last, third resurrection event which will fall in the seventh month when the Feast of Tabernacles used to be celebrated. A child could understand the symbolism of this easily, but it takes the "Orthodox" professionals to miss this connection entirely.

 

[Scott Downey]

No, we today are not waiting for the second appearance of Christ. We are waiting on the final third appearance at His next return.

Christ now "rules in the midst of His enemies". And there is more than just a single "reaping" of the harvested bodies of the saints out of the ground. Israel's agricultural harvests (after which the Mosaic laws and rituals were carefully patterned) had no less and no more than THREE harvests during the year. One barley harvest at Passover, one wheat harvest at Pentecost, and the final "feast of ingathering" for the rest of the crops of the field in the seventh month for the Feast of Tabernacles.

The "harvests" of the bodies of the saints out of the ground likewise follow this same pattern of three separate events. There have already been two bodily resurrection events which fell during Passover in AD 33 and Pentecost day in AD 70. We await the last, third resurrection event which will fall in the seventh month when the Feast of Tabernacles used to be celebrated. A child could understand the symbolism of this easily, but it takes the "Orthodox" professionals to miss this connection entirely.

Your doctrine though is not in agreement with the scriptures as it says right here this.

Hebrews 10:11-13
New King James Version
Christ’s Death Perfects the Sanctified

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.

I read your posts and you are making up stories.

 

[Scott Downey]

Christ after His resurrection met with people on earth for 40 days as a testimony and witness of how God raised Him up, that the gospel is true.
After that He ascended and is sat down at the right hand of God in Heaven, not to return until the end of the world or age.

Acts 1
The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 until the day in which [a]He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, 3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many [b]infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

The Holy Spirit Promised​

4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” 6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be [c]witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Jesus Ascends to Heaven​

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

The attending angels told the people like this

10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

which is why it says it like this in Revelation 1

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.


None of verse 7 happened in 70AD