Once Save Always Saved / Eternal Security is in the Word, i.e in Christ

[Zao is life]

One must understand from the heart/ spirit, what being Born Again of imperishable seed means...you cannot read and understand the Living seed of God in the human intellect.

The seed of God is His Living Holy Spirit....once Spirit gives birth to spirit...it can NEVER be undone...therefore as His word says....a Born Again has been Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed, that LIVETH and ABIDETH FOREVER....the Spirit LIVETH and ABIDETH FOREVER in the HEART of HIS SPIRITUAL CHILD....not in the human intellect...Never ever will His Spirit leave our spirit...we have been saved from eternal damnation..once we have received that very,very PRECIOUS seed into our heart, where it will grow and flourish because it was planted by God’s Living Spirit..
My opinion/ testimony/ belief..100%.

​

◄ 1 Peter 1:23 ►

​

Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. New Living Translation For you have been born again, but not to a life that will quickly end. Your new life will last forever because it comes from the eternal, living word of God. English Standard Version since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; Berean Standard Bible For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. Berean Literal Bible having been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, by the living and abiding word of God, King James Bible Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

One must understand from the heart what being added to the Kingdom of Christ through being born of God's imperishable, incorruptible seed means.

In the Word of God is everlasting life. Jesus is the bread of life who came down from heaven. If you do not abide in Him, you will die. It's not my words, but the Word of God, which all need to believe from the heart, or else we run the risk of not remaining in the Word and falling away, just like Adam and Eve did.

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you." -- John 15:6-7.

We all need to understand from the heart that in order to be brought into the Messiah's Kingdom, we must be born again of the Spirit of God.

"There is one body and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in you all." (Ephesians 4:5).

It's not my word, but the Word of God. Jesus is the bread of life and HE says that if anyone does not abide in Him, that one will die.

We can only understand this from the heart. It's not only the Spirit that brings about our everlasting life. It's the Spirit and the Word. We cannot leave the Word out of it, and claim that we are born of the Spirit, therefore cannot die when the Word of Christ tells us otherwise.

We can either accept the Word of Christ, and believe it from the heart, or we can reject it. If we do not believe the Word that says "You will surely die" and reject it we run the risk of falling away and believing the lie that says "You will not surely die".

 

[Hobie]

-- He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen. --- 1 Timothy 6:15-16.

-- "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself" -- John 5:26

-- "I am the First and the Last, and the Living One, and I became dead, and behold, I am alive for ever and ever, Amen. And I have the keys of hades and of death." -- Revelation 1:17-18.

"The Word was in the beginning with God. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men." (John 1:2 & 4).

John 1:4 states that life is in the Word of God. It follows that eternal life | immortality is in Christ alone.

John 1:14 states that the Word became a human being and lived among us. This is Christ.

Both Genesis 2:7 and John 3:8 speak of the Spirit of God breathing His (eternal) life into man, but God alone has life in Himself.

Therefore to say that Christians will be "given immortality" with the resurrection of the body from the dead is a statement that expresses only half the truth. The other (most important) half is what you see underlined in the quote below:

"And this is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life." -- 1 John 5:11-12.

Only in the Word is life. (John 1:4).

Our immortality is in Christ, the Creator, who alone possesses immortality according to the scriptures, and who alone has life in Himself, according to the scriptures. (1 Timothy 6:16; John 5:26).

God said to Adam:

"Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof dying you will die." (Genesis 2:17, literal translation from the Hebrew).

It implies that Adam (the creature) did not have immortality in himself, and this therefore gives us the knowledge that we do not have - and can never have - immortality | eternal life in ourselves.

It teaches us that if we do not abide in the Word of God, then we will die.

"You will not surely die" is a lie from the beginning:

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you." -- John 15:6-7.

"And this is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life." -- 1 John 5:11-12.

Our immortality is not, and never will be in ourselves, any more than Adam's was when he believed the words "You shall not surely die." The immortality that we put on, which is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:53-54, is Christ's immortality that we share in through His Spirit (the breath of God).

So let's consider what Adam knew before he believed the lie:

Adam knew the Word of God. God spoke it Adam directly. So Adam knew perfectly well that the words "You will not surely die" was a direct contradiction to what God had said, and the assertion of the serpent implied that God's words ".. you will surely die", were a lie.

ADAM'S MOTIVE

What was Adam's motive for rejecting the Word of God?

".. For God ['ĕlôhîym] does know that in the day all of you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and all of you shall be as gods ['ĕlôhîym], knowing good and evil." -- Genesis 3:5.

It has to do with wanting to make oneself like the Most High, as in Isaiah 14:14's reference to the king of Babylon:

"I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

Only God has everlasting life in Himself. Satan's first lie was that Adam & Eve would not die.

"Once saved always saved" / eternal security is in Christ. Eternal life is in the Word.

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you." -- John 15:6-7.

It does not depend on those who believe in Christ, because we cannot earn it - but it's found in the Word, that is, in Christ.

Being alive in our resurrected bodies is not going to change this. Adam was immortal, yet he died.​

So what could possibly be a motive for someone who knows the truth choosing to follow a lie? We only need to consider three things:

1. Adam's motive.
2. The fact that Satan is cunning, subtle and crafty.
3. The fact that God permitted Satan to test immortal humans who had eternal life.

I think you would need to ask Judas that...

 

[Ritajanice]

One must understand from the heart what being added to the Kingdom of Christ through being born of God's imperishable, incorruptible seed means.

In the Word of God is everlasting life. Jesus is the bread of life who came down from heaven. If you do not abide in Him, you will die. It's not my words, but the Word of God, which all need to believe from the heart, or else we run the risk of not remaining in the Word and falling away, just like Adam and Eve did.

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you." -- John 15:6-7.

We all need to understand from the heart that in order to be brought into the Messiah's Kingdom, we must be born again of the Spirit of God.

"There is one body and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in you all." (Ephesians 4:5).

It's not my word, but the Word of God. Jesus is the bread of life and HE says that if anyone does not abide in Him, that one will die.

We can only understand this from the heart. It's not only the Spirit that brings about our everlasting life. It's the Spirit and the Word. We cannot leave the Word out of it, and claim that we are born of the Spirit, therefore cannot die when the Word of Christ tells us otherwise.

Thank you for your opinion/ testimony/ belief.

I too voiced mine above..my opinion/ testimony/ belief.

We are both on different levels of spiritual understanding..imo...therefore it’s not edifying to keep going round in circles....respect each other’s belief and move on...a child of God should not be quarrelsome.

God Bless and I wish you well in finding/ understanding God’s truth...as we all continue to search for his truth..In Jesus Name....Amen!...xx

 

[Rightglory]

False. Totally misrepresents the scripture. Man was not created to want to make himself in the image & likeness of God. God had already created man in His image and likeness. Nothing further for man to do once he was created. It was wanting to be like God, who has eternal life in Himself that man wanted to do, after hearing the lie: "You will not surely die, but you will be like God".

Hardly, when what I stated has been the understanding of Creation and the creation of man from the beginning. The view has not changed for 2000 years within His Church.
I also never stated that man wanted to make himself in God's image. Those are your words. But man was created to be like God, which became impossible when Adam sinned. Christ became man, assumed our humanity, so that man might again share in that Divine Nature. II Pet 1:4, to be conformed to the Image of His Son, Rom 8:29, II Cor 3:18,

Indeed, believing in Christ does not earn us eternal life. Christ alone earned it, and in Him alone is eternal life. Faith in Christ is the conduit by which His eternal life is bestowed upon us. We do not earn it through faith, so what God imparts (eternal life) does not depend on those who believe, but without faith in Christ, we cannot receive it. So this is why I made it clear that I was speaking about eternal life not depending on those who believe in Christ because it's in Christ, not in the creature, and is imparted by God, we did not, and cannot, and do not earn it.

It is all about faith, keeping the faith. Our faith must be nurtured, it must grow. It is not static, but dynamic. Man can surely fall away from faith. Christ gave life, an eternal existence to the world, all of mankind by His Incarnation and resurrection. All the dead (mankind) will be raised immortal and incorruptible, I Cor 15:53-54. We attain "eternal life" at the end of our lives, if we were faithful. Being faithful depends solely upon each individual. Read carefully I Pet 1:3-5. We inherit "eternal life" at the end.
You need to do more study on the Incarnation of Christ. Your view of creation of man and God's purpose of man is totally misunderstood, especially since it is one of the hallmarks of historical Christianity.

"Once saved always saved" / eternal security is in Christ. Eternal life is in the Word:

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you." -- John 15:6-7.

Abiding in Christ does not earn something that Christ earned and that God imparts.

It has nothing to do with earning. I have no idea where you come up with this theory. It is all about obedience. Being obedient to his will.

What you say above is unbiblical, and is nonsense, and contrary to the scripture. Adam was indeed immortal, and he was immortal ONLY because God breathed eternal life into him WHEN HE WAS CREATED.

He was not created immortal. Your view is incongruent with scripture. When we are all raised in the last day, we all will become immortal and incruptible. This would mean that death, and if death then sin will still be a factor in heaven, even though you say man was actually created immortal. The view that is not scriptural is yours. You need to study up on the Incarnation and what Christ accomplished through it.

 

[Zao is life]

Hardly, when what I stated has been the understanding of Creation and the creation of man from the beginning. The view has not changed for 2000 years within His Church.
I also never stated that man wanted to make himself in God's image. Those are your words. But man was created to be like God, which became impossible when Adam sinned. Christ became man, assumed our humanity, so that man might again share in that Divine Nature. II Pet 1:4, to be conformed to the Image of His Son, Rom 8:29, II Cor 3:18,

It is all about faith, keeping the faith. Our faith must be nurtured, it must grow. It is not static, but dynamic. Man can surely fall away from faith. Christ gave life, an eternal existence to the world, all of mankind by His Incarnation and resurrection. All the dead (mankind) will be raised immortal and incorruptible, I Cor 15:53-54. We attain "eternal life" at the end of our lives, if we were faithful. Being faithful depends solely upon each individual. Read carefully I Pet 1:3-5. We inherit "eternal life" at the end.
You need to do more study on the Incarnation of Christ. Your view of creation of man and God's purpose of man is totally misunderstood, especially since it is one of the hallmarks of historical Christianity.

It has nothing to do with earning. I have no idea where you come up with this theory. It is all about obedience. Being obedient to his will.

He was not created immortal. Your view is incongruent with scripture. When we are all raised in the last day, we all will become immortal and incruptible. This would mean that death, and if death then sin will still be a factor in heaven, even though you say man was actually created immortal. The view that is not scriptural is yours. You need to study up on the Incarnation and what Christ accomplished through it.

I doubt that you understand the hallmarks of Christianity. You have made it clear you do not. Adam was immortal before he sinned. He was living in a body that would not have died had he not sinned. He died because he sinned. You've repeatedly denied this fact.

"And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." -- Romans 8:10-11.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" -- Romans 5:12

"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." -- 1 Corinthians 15:20-22

You need to do more study on gospel of salvation through faith in Christ alone, and on the resurrection, as well as on the meaning of immortality, and also on the consequences of falling away from Christ, since you say that man can surely fall away from faith, and you are contradicting yourself and making it clear that you do not realize that we are not saved by our faith but through our faith and by Christ.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy has begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fades not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." -- 1 Peter 1:3-5

 

[Rightglory]

I doubt that you understand the hallmarks of Christianity. You have made it clear you do not. Adam was immortal before he sinned. He was living in a body that would not have died had he not sinned. He died because he sinned. You've repeatedly denied this fact.

If you think you are correct then give me some evidence from the Apostolic times and immediately post Apostolic that held to your view.
Adam was not created either mortal or immortal. He was free to attain either position depending on his obedience to God's command. He sinned and the consequence was death, mortality.

"And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." -- Romans 8:10-11.

Yes, that quickening takes place in the last day at the resurrection. We can speak of a resurrection of our bodies because Christ arose from the dead with our body. I Cor 15:53-54,

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" -- Romans 5:12

"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." -- 1 Corinthians 15:20-22

You need to do more study on gospel of salvation through faith in Christ alone, and on the resurrection, as well as on the meaning of immortality, and also on the consequences of falling away from Christ, since you say that man can surely fall away from faith, and you are contradicting yourself and making it clear that you do not realize that we are not saved by our faith but through our faith and by Christ.

Your quote of I Cor 15:20-21 is Incarnational. All men suffered the consequences of death through Adam, the same all men will also be given life - I Cor 15: 53-54,
You are correct that we are being saved through faith which I had also posted earlier. If our faith fails, we will not be saved, We will not inherit eternal life. I Pet 1:3-5.
We are definitely being saved by Christ, but Christ does not save us arbitrarily nor without our will. There is nothing in scripture that guarantees a believer to remain faithful. Which is why so much of the NT is constantly addressing that we remain IN Him, that we abide in Him, that we keep His commandments. Problem is that a lot of beginning believers find the journey to difficult and they fall away.
I may be contradicting your view, but it is the view of scripture and how it has always been understood.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy has begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fades not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." -- 1 Peter 1:3-5

Precisely. I have cited this text several times and in this post above as well.

 

[Zao is life]

Adam was not created either mortal or immortal. He was free to attain either position depending on his obedience to God's command. He sinned and the consequence was death, mortality.

You are showing by the things you say that you have not fully understood Orthodox Christianity that was taught from the beginning by the apostles and the churches, and hence falsely claim that your misunderstanding has always been taught in Orthodox Christianity.

Orthodox Christian theology has never taught that man can attain to immortality by his faith in the Word of God. Such a thing would make your faith the thing that quickens you and gives you eternal life, and is a lie, besides not being Orthodox Christianity.

It's is Christ's resurrection and the power of His resurrection that gives you immortality, through your believing in Him and in His Word, not by your faith in Him.

​

No created being since Adam's creation is able to attain to that which only Christ possesses because only God has eternal life in Himself. Adam was free before he sinned to maintain the everlasting life that God had breathed into him, through faith in the Word of God which told Adam that if he disobeyed the commandment he would surely die - which was not a lie, and implies that Adam did not have everlasting life in himself, nor could he attain it, nor could he attain immortality, because Adam's immortality (alive in his body forever) was derived from the everlasting life that God had imparted to him when God breathed the breath of life into Adam and he became a living soul in the day that he was created.

But "He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen." -- 1 Timothy 6:15-16.

-- "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself" -- John 5:26.

-- "I am the First and the Last, and the Living One, and I became dead, and behold, I am alive for ever and ever, Amen. And I have the keys of hades and of death." -- Revelation 1:17-18.​

The reason why Adam died is because he did not have eternal life in himself, which is what only God has in Himself, and though Adam was living in his body and would never die, had he not sinned (though he WAS IMMORTAL because his immortality was derived from the eternal life God had imparted to him), that immortality was not and never will be the possession of the created being.

"He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen." -- 1 Timothy 6:15-16.

-- "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself" -- John 5:26.

God imparts eternal life, which only He possesses. in Himself, being the everlasting living Creator.
​

"And this is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life." -- 1 John 5:11-12.

​

Only in the Word is (everlasting) life. (John 1:4).

The immortality that we will have through Christ resurrection will not be our possession, any more than it was Adam's possession before he sinned.

​

What you are in effect saying when you falsely assert that "Adam was free to attain immortality through obedience is that Adam could make himself like the Most High and like Christ, who alone possesses eternal life in Himself and who alone possesses immortality.

​

Before he sinned Adam was alive in his body and would have lived forever (been immortal) if he had not believed the lie which says "You will not surely die", thereby falsely believing he could attain to having everlasting life in himself and possessing the immortality that only Christ possesses and which is imparted to us by the Word in Whom is everlasting life, through our believing His Word (faith in His Word).

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you." -- John 15:6-7. ​

Yes, that quickening takes place in the last day at the resurrection. We can speak of a resurrection of our bodies because Christ arose from the dead with our body. I Cor 15:53-54,

Christ arose from the dead with whose body?

Your quote of I Cor 15:20-21 is Incarnational.

Incarnation means and only refers to a soul or spirit that was alive before being born. Only Christ became incarnate. Please explain what you mean by "incarnational".

All men suffered the consequences of death through Adam, the same all men will also be given life - I Cor 15: 53-54,

The key word is GIVEN life. Like Adam, you seem to have changed this in your belief-system into possessing everlasting life / immortality through attaining it and then possessing it in ourselves, and it's a lie, because we are not God. Our lives are in Christ and our immortality will be derived from abiding in Him.

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you." -- John 15:6-7.

You are correct that we are being saved through faith which I had also posted earlier. If our faith fails, we will not be saved, We will not inherit eternal life. I Pet 1:3-5.
We are definitely being saved by Christ, but Christ does not save us arbitrarily nor without our will. There is nothing in scripture that guarantees a believer to remain faithful. Which is why so much of the NT is constantly addressing that we remain IN Him, that we abide in Him, that we keep His commandments. Problem is that a lot of beginning believers find the journey to difficult and they fall away.

That's 100% true because we do not possess eternal life in ourselves - in the Word is life - so you contradict yourself when you say that our immortality, which is eternal life in a resurrected, incorruptible body, will somehow miraculously become our possession, and you contradict what is written because it is written (the Word of God tells us) that Christ alone possesses immortality and only He has (eternal) life in Himself.

It's good that this thread has been moved to the Unorthodox forum because "Once Saved Always Saved / eternal security regardless of remaining in the Word in Whom alone is life" doctrine is indeed unorthodox doctrine.

I may be contradicting your view, but it is the view of scripture and how it has always been understood.

You read me saying the same thing before you said it, and I have not contradicted myself but the above contradicts your own view that the created human could attain immortality through obedience.

 

[Rightglory]

You are showing by the things you say that you have not fully understood Orthodox Christianity that was taught from the beginning by the apostles and the churches, and hence falsely claim that your misunderstanding has always been taught in Orthodox Christianity.

Orthodox Christian theology has never taught that man can attain to immortality by his faith in the Word of God. Such a thing would make your faith the thing that quickens you and gives you eternal life, and is a lie, besides not being Orthodox Christianity.

Its not what I stated but your incorrect understanding of what I stated. Adam is the only person who could have attained immortality through obedience, created immortality.
Man since Adam cannot attain immortality. That is why we needed Christ to become Incarnate, which means Christ assumed our human nature through the Virgin Mary. Jesus was fully man and fully God. In His Humanity He became everything that we are as human beings, but did not sin. Man, all human beings will have immortality and incorruptibility by the Incarnation of Christ when He arose from the grave. That human nature which He possesses, the same as ours, will be given immortality and incorruptibility at the resurrection., This is NOT the immortality of God, but a created immortality. We do not become God. We are created creatures and will always be created creatures.

It's is Christ's resurrection and the power of His resurrection that gives you immortality, through your believing in Him and in His Word, not by your faith in Him.

Believing in Him does not give you immortality. Believing in Him gives you eternal life WITH Him. Those that do not believe, also have immortality, but they will live apart from God spiritually, In other words they will not be able to respond to Him in an eternal separation from God relationally. All the Incarnational texts support this beginning with the fall, Gen 3:19, dust to dust, Rom 5:12,, the consequence of Adam's sin was death, it was death, mortality that was inherited by all men. Rom 5:18, all men were given life by Christ who had fallen due to Adam. I Cor 15:21-22 is the summation of the relation between the first Adam and the Second Adam. II Tim 1:10, and others as well, The world was also subjected to death Rom 8:20 thus Christ also reconciled the world, Col 1:20. II Cor 5:18-19, John 4:42, I John 4:14.

​

No created being since Adam's creation is able to attain to that which only Christ possesses because only God has eternal life in Himself. Adam was free before he sinned to maintain the everlasting life that God had breathed into him, through faith in the Word of God which told Adam that if he disobeyed the commandment he would surely die - which was not a lie, and implies that Adam did not have everlasting life in himself, nor could he attain it, nor could he attain immortality, because Adam's immortality (alive in his body forever) was derived from the everlasting life that God had imparted to him when God breathed the breath of life into Adam and he became a living soul in the day that he was created.

But "He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen." -- 1 Timothy 6:15-16.

-- "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself" -- John 5:26.

-- "I am the First and the Last, and the Living One, and I became dead, and behold, I am alive for ever and ever, Amen. And I have the keys of hades and of death." -- Revelation 1:17-18.​

The reason why Adam died is because he did not have eternal life in himself, which is what only God has in Himself, and though Adam was living in his body and would never die, had he not sinned (though he WAS IMMORTAL because his immortality was derived from the eternal life God had imparted to him), that immortality was not and never will be the possession of the created being.

"He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen." -- 1 Timothy 6:15-16.

-- "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself" -- John 5:26.

God imparts eternal life, which only He possesses. in Himself, being the everlasting living Creator.
​

"And this is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life." -- 1 John 5:11-12.

​

Only in the Word is (everlasting) life. (John 1:4).

The immortality that we will have through Christ resurrection will not be our possession, any more than it was Adam's possession before he sinned.

​

What you are in effect saying when you falsely assert that "Adam was free to attain immortality through obedience is that Adam could make himself like the Most High and like Christ, who alone possesses eternal life in Himself and who alone possesses immortality.

​

Before he sinned Adam was alive in his body and would have lived forever (been immortal) if he had not believed the lie which says "You will not surely die", thereby falsely believing he could attain to having everlasting life in himself and possessing the immortality that only Christ possesses and which is imparted to us by the Word in Whom is everlasting life, through our believing His Word (faith in His Word).

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you." -- John 15:6-7. ​

All the above is based on your incorrect understanding again. First, you are incorrect that Adam was created immortal. It belies the entire scriptural understanding of Christ's work of redemption. Adam could definitely attain immortality through working with God. He could also attain mortality by not working with God, disobedience. Adam sinned and the consequence was man became mortal. Also, man since Adam cannot work with God to attain immortality, since he is mortal. He does not have the same nature Adam had before he sinned.

Christ arose from the dead with whose body?

Incarnation means and only refers to a soul or spirit that was alive before being born. Only Christ became incarnate. Please explain what you mean by "incarnational".

No, The Incarnation of Christ means that by the working of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, Christ took on, or assumed our human nature, body, soul, emotions, but did not sin.
It is that same human nature, that was raised to life when Christ arose from the dead. That life will not be given until the last day which is described in I Cor 15:53-54.

The key word is GIVEN life. Like Adam, you seem to have changed this in your belief-system into possessing everlasting life / immortality through attaining it and then possessing it in ourselves, and it's a lie, because we are not God. Our lives are in Christ and our immortality will be derived from abiding in Him.
"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you." -- John 15:6-7.
That's 100% true because we do not possess eternal life in ourselves - in the Word is life - so you contradict yourself when you say that our immortality, which is eternal life in a resurrected, incorruptible body, will somehow miraculously become our possession, and you contradict what is written because it is written (the Word of God tells us) that Christ alone possesses immortality and only He has (eternal) life in Himself.

You again are asserting your understanding into what I stated, which is something I never stated nor even implied.
You are also incorrect in that our immortality is derived from abiding in Him. All mankind will get this created immortality and incorruptibility because they are all human beings, the same human being Christ possessed and raised from the dead, mortality.
The faithful will inherit eternal life meaning a life lived with God for an eternity. It is relational. We do not become God, or Christ, but believers do share in the Divine Nature because as Christ His Human Nature was part of the person of Christ, II Pet 1:4. It has the same meaning of being IN Christ. Of being transformed into His Likeness, same as Adam was doing in the beginning.

 

[Zao is life]

Its not what I stated but your incorrect understanding of what I stated. Adam is the only person who could have attained immortality through obedience, created immortality.
Man since Adam cannot attain immortality. That is why we needed Christ to become Incarnate, which means Christ assumed our human nature through the Virgin Mary. Jesus was fully man and fully God. In His Humanity He became everything that we are as human beings, but did not sin. Man, all human beings will have immortality and incorruptibility by the Incarnation of Christ when He arose from the grave. That human nature which He possesses, the same as ours, will be given immortality and incorruptibility at the resurrection., This is NOT the immortality of God, but a created immortality. We do not become God. We are created creatures and will always be created creatures.

Believing in Him does not give you immortality. Believing in Him gives you eternal life WITH Him. Those that do not believe, also have immortality, but they will live apart from God spiritually, In other words they will not be able to respond to Him in an eternal separation from God relationally. All the Incarnational texts support this beginning with the fall, Gen 3:19, dust to dust, Rom 5:12,, the consequence of Adam's sin was death, it was death, mortality that was inherited by all men. Rom 5:18, all men were given life by Christ who had fallen due to Adam. I Cor 15:21-22 is the summation of the relation between the first Adam and the Second Adam. II Tim 1:10, and others as well, The world was also subjected to death Rom 8:20 thus Christ also reconciled the world, Col 1:20. II Cor 5:18-19, John 4:42, I John 4:14.

All the above is based on your incorrect understanding again. First, you are incorrect that Adam was created immortal. It belies the entire scriptural understanding of Christ's work of redemption. Adam could definitely attain immortality through working with God. He could also attain mortality by not working with God, disobedience. Adam sinned and the consequence was man became mortal. Also, man since Adam cannot work with God to attain immortality, since he is mortal. He does not have the same nature Adam had before he sinned.


No, The Incarnation of Christ means that by the working of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, Christ took on, or assumed our human nature, body, soul, emotions, but did not sin.
It is that same human nature, that was raised to life when Christ arose from the dead. That life will not be given until the last day which is described in I Cor 15:53-54.


You again are asserting your understanding into what I stated, which is something I never stated nor even implied.
You are also incorrect in that our immortality is derived from abiding in Him. All mankind will get this created immortality and incorruptibility because they are all human beings, the same human being Christ possessed and raised from the dead, mortality.
The faithful will inherit eternal life meaning a life lived with God for an eternity. It is relational. We do not become God, or Christ, but believers do share in the Divine Nature because as Christ His Human Nature was part of the person of Christ, II Pet 1:4. It has the same meaning of being IN Christ. Of being transformed into His Likeness, same as Adam was doing in the beginning.

I won't debate what you say regarding the resurrected unjust forever living apart from God in immortal bodies, simply because I don't claim to know how we should interpret the things that Jesus said below:

"Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in γέεννα géenna (gehennah)" -- Matthew 10:28

Gehennah is the word that Jesus used as a symbol of a state of everlasting destruction every time He spoke of everlasting destruction. (Mat.5:22, 29 & 30 | Mark 9:43, 45 & 47; Mat.10:28; Mat.18:9; Mat.23:15 & 33; Luke 12:5; James 3:6),

but whenever He or the apostles spoke of the place of departed souls (Lazarus and the rich man etc), the word haides is used, which is also the word that the LXX always uses to translate the Hebrew word sheol.​

Both words were consistently translated as "hell" by the translators of the KJV. I don't know why.

In the Revelation of Jesus Christ to His churches, John saw a vision of all whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life experiencing a second death, which the Revelation also calls the lake of fire - but Jesus also begins to close His Revelation with the words:

Revelation 22
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

Adam had the right to the tree of life before he disobeyed the commandment, and obedience required no action on Adam's part. It was disobedience that required an action, which was brought about by a conscious choice.

So it was disobedience that "attained" death for Adam. Continued obedience would not have been an action, but it would have been evidence of believing the Word of God, in Whom John 1:4 tells us is life. That life is imparted to the one who believes.

Only those who do His commandments will have the right to the tree of life, and obedience requires no action but only faith (believing in) the Word of God in Whom is life, so we do not attain this (already given) gift of God ourselves through obedience, any more than Adam could, but only through faith (believing in) Christ. We can only attain death through acts of disobedience.

So if you believe that the reason that God told Adam that he would surely die if he disobeyed the commandment (which was the only action Adam could have partaken in), was not because Adam was already immortal and had the right to the tree of life before he sinned,

and since you believe Adam's obedience, which is non-action, would somehow attain immortality for him (which you believe he did not have before he died),

then we will just keep going around in circles, so there's no point in arguing this point anymore.​

 

[Rightglory]

I won't debate what you say regarding the resurrected unjust forever living apart from God in immortal bodies, simply because I don't claim to know how we should interpret the things that Jesus said below:

"Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in γέεννα géenna (gehennah)" -- Matthew 10:28

Gehennah is the word that Jesus used as a symbol of a state of everlasting destruction every time He spoke of everlasting destruction. (Mat.5:22, 29 & 30 | Mark 9:43, 45 & 47; Mat.10:28; Mat.18:9; Mat.23:15 & 33; Luke 12:5; James 3:6),

but whenever He or the apostles spoke of the place of departed souls (Lazarus and the rich man etc), the word haides is used, which is also the word that the LXX always uses to translate the Hebrew word sheol.​

Both words were consistently translated as "hell" by the translators of the KJV. I don't know why.

In the Revelation of Jesus Christ to His churches, John saw a vision of all whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life experiencing a second death, which the Revelation also calls the lake of fire - but Jesus also begins to close His Revelation with the words:

Revelation 22
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

Adam had the right to the tree of life before he disobeyed the commandment, and obedience required no action on Adam's part. It was disobedience that required an action, which was brought about by a conscious choice.

So it was disobedience that "attained" death for Adam. Continued obedience would not have been an action, but it would have been evidence of believing the Word of God, in Whom John 1:4 tells us is life. That life is imparted to the one who believes.

Only those who do His commandments will have the right to the tree of life, and obedience requires no action but only faith (believing in) the Word of God in Whom is life, so we do not attain this (already given) gift of God ourselves through obedience, any more than Adam could, but only through faith (believing in) Christ. We can only attain death through acts of disobedience.

So if you believe that the reason that God told Adam that he would surely die if he disobeyed the commandment (which was the only action Adam could have partaken in), was not because Adam was already immortal and had the right to the tree of life before he sinned,

and since you believe Adam's obedience, which is non-action, would somehow attain immortality for him (which you believe he did not have before he died),

then we will just keep going around in circles, so there's no point in arguing this point anymore.

Whatever the case may be, what I say in this thread contains no unorthodox Christian doctrine, and the fact that mods considered it to be unorthodox doctrine, so as to move the thread to the Unorthodox Doctrine board, without even one comment about what is considered unorthodox by them, once again shows the state of the church in our era, because mods in a Christian forum ought to know the difference.
​

So be it. The mods are appointed for doing as they see fit with threads so have been given the right to do so - but since you and I will just continue to go round in circles about this, there's no point in me commenting further about your interpretation of scripture regarding whether or not Adam could attain everlasting life or immortality, or whether he already had both everlasting life and everlasting life in the body (immortality) before he died.

I have no idea why it was moved either. Most of the forums that are of Protestant origins all have heresies galore in them. For an Orthodox Christian, OSAS is a heresy. It was condemned by the Church in 1672 in the Council of Jerusalem along with most of what is called Calvinism.
It is also why within Protestantism there are thousands of denominations all differing on at least one doctrine but some many. All of them were derived by individuals who came up with novel ideas of scriptural interpretations, all after 1517, 1500 years after the Gospel was given.

 

[Zao is life]

I have no idea why it was moved either. Most of the forums that are of Protestant origins all have heresies galore in them. For an Orthodox Christian, OSAS is a heresy. It was condemned by the Church in 1672 in the Council of Jerusalem along with most of what is called Calvinism.
It is also why within Protestantism there are thousands of denominations all differing on at least one doctrine but some many. All of them were derived by individuals who came up with novel ideas of scriptural interpretations, all after 1517, 1500 years after the Gospel was given.

I'm a Protestant, but actually that's just one of many boxes people try to place one another in. Time we all stopped with titles and categories, IMO.

 

[Zao is life]

EVERLASTING LIFE OWNED
-- "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. The Word was with God in the beginning. All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created.

In him was life [zōḗ], and the life was the light of mankind." -- John 1:1-4

-- "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself" -- John 5:26

EVERLASTING LIFE GIVEN
-- "And this is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life." -- 1 John 5:11-12.

RIGHTEOUSNESS OWNED
-- "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous One. -- 1 John 2:1

RIGHTEOUSNESS GIVEN
-- "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death. -- Philippians 3:9-10

RESURRECTION OWNED
-- "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" -- John 11:25

-- "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." -- John 14:6

RESURRECTION GIVEN
-- "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming." -- 1 Corinthians 15:20-23

IMMORTALITY OWNED
-- "He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen." -- 1 Timothy 6:15-16

IMMORTALITY GIVEN
-- "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." -- 1 Corinthians 15:52-54.

CORRUPTION / DECAY
-- "The creation itself shall also be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." -- Romans 8:21.

We got justified because of Christ's blood shed for our sins.
We receive eternal life in Christ because Christ has life in Himself.
We get resurrected at the last day because we are resurrected by the power of Christ's resurrection.
We become immortal because of Christ's immortality, who alone posses immortality, and our dead bodies are quickened by the Spirit of Christ.

Christ is the last Adam. There will be no immortality 'created' for billions of created humans. The only immortality is the immortality of the last Adam, which He EARNED.

-- "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna." -- Matthew 10:28.

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." -- Revelation 20:14-15.

Those who will experience the second death written about in the Revelation will experience it because they did not inherit eternal life in Christ through faith in Him, so the immortality that they find themselves with after the resurrection of the just and of the unjust (Acts 24:15), will not be what they got through faith in Christ. Therefore they will experience the second death, because their names are will not be written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

So what could possibly be a motive for someone who knows the truth choosing to follow a lie, like Adam did? We only need to consider three things to find the answer:

1. Adam's motive.
2. The fact that Satan is cunning, subtle and crafty.
3. The fact that God permitted Satan to test immortal humans who were immortal.

Adam knew the truth. He knew Word of God. God spoke it to Adam directly. So Adam knew perfectly well that the words "You will not surely die" was a direct contradiction to what God had said, and the assertion of the serpent implied that God's words ".. you will surely die", were a lie.

What was Adam's motive for rejecting the Word of God?

".. For God ['ĕlôhîym] does know that in the day all of you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and all of you shall be as gods ['ĕlôhîym], knowing good and evil." -- Genesis 3:5.

It has to do with wanting to make oneself like the Most High, as in Isaiah 14:14's reference to the king of Babylon:

-- "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." -- Isaiah 14:14.

Only God has everlasting life in Himself. Satan's first lie was that Adam & Eve would not die.

'Once saved always saved' / eternal security is in Christ. Eternal life is in the Word. Immortality belongs to the last Adam. He EARNED it.

Both Genesis 2:7 and John 3:8 speak of the Spirit of God breathing His (eternal) life into man, and God alone has life in Himself. It follows that eternal zōḗ (eternal life), as well as immortality is in Christ alone, who alone possesses immortality according to the scriptures, and who alone has life in Himself, according to the scriptures. (1 Timothy 6:16; John 5:26).

God said to Adam:

"Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof dying you will die." (Genesis 2:17, literal translation from the Hebrew).

It implies that Adam (the creature) did not have immortality in himself, and this therefore gives us the knowledge that we do not have - and can never have - immortality | eternal life in ourselves.

It teaches us that if we do not abide in the Word of God, then we will die.

"You will not surely die" is a lie from the beginning:

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you." -- John 15:6-7.

"And this is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life." -- 1 John 5:11-12.

It's always been about the Word we abide in:

".. you will surely die." vs.
"You will not surely die."​